Do you think the jobs would return if there were a virtual moratorium on immigration?

[JackBondLove]

With everyone talking about how jobs are ... well Job #1, it seems that the easiest thing to do is to severely restrict immigration (i.e., basically only allowing immediate family members of citizens to immigrate or get a foreign worker visa, except for the truly exceptional O class visas.) And the beauty of it is that it wouldn't cost a dime in taxpayer resources to implement, unlike a stimulus program. Why doesn't Congress just do this?

As a software developer, I believe that an end to the H1B and L1 visas would force the American employer to hire Americans like me rather than foreigners (who are allowed to be abused due to the indentured nature of those visas.) And I'm sure that when the demand sucks up all experienced folks like me, employers will be looking to hire intelligent but not IT experienced folks and letting them learn on the job.

What do you think?

[APL]

I am proud to live in a country that welcomes people from all over the world, and fascinated with history and how much of this country was built on the backbone of immigrants.

I do not think that halting immigration would make jobs return. The problem, as I have personally witnessed, is American companies sending jobs overseas. Many people I know have lost their jobs when their entire departments (and even entire regional offices) were moved to another country.

I'm not in IT, so I can't speak to your industry. However, I can't remember the last time I called tech support and spoke to someone in a US call center. Heck, even all my collection calls are coming from overseas!

[shark66]

With everyone talking about how jobs are ... well Job #1, it seems that the easiest thing to do is to severely restrict immigration (i.e., basically only allowing immediate family members of citizens to immigrate or get a foreign worker visa, except for the truly exceptional O class visas.) And the beauty of it is that it wouldn't cost a dime in taxpayer resources to implement, unlike a stimulus program. Why doesn't Congress just do this?

As a software developer, I believe that an end to the H1B and L1 visas would force the American employer to hire Americans like me rather than foreigners (who are allowed to be abused due to the indentured nature of those visas.) And I'm sure that when the demand sucks up all experienced folks like me, employers will be looking to hire intelligent but not IT experienced folks and letting them learn on the job.

What do you think?

There are several different problems that you're trying to cram under one solution:

a) Millions of jobs have been physically moved (outsourced) outside of U.S. and will NOT come back unless we accept to work for the same amount of money as people in Asia do. I doubt that anyone on this forum would appreciate that kind of a paycheck.

b) American workers - when compared to their European or Asian counterparts - are usually more demanding while offering less. There is a reason that the very best folks in anti-virus world are Russians. Had you ever attended a class at any of their universities you'd understand why. That is also the main reason why Berlin wall was taken down...to bring down (in the long run) the price of labor in the U.S. Technology helped in making this happen faster. I'm *not* Russian, BTW.

c) There will never be an end to the problem discussed above until the U.S. education system vastly improves. I don't see that happening anytime soon, not within our lifetimes at the very least.

d) I'm in a different part of the same industry that you belong to, and will state the following: times have changed. Learn to adapt. I came to this country on one of those *horrible* visas when Clinton was President, after working for the same Fortune 10 company in two European countries. They paid a pretty penny to get my butt in here because they needed me at that moment, and make no mistake - I was paid as much as my American counterparts working on the same or similar projects. Fast forward a couple of years, and my own job got outsourced someplace else. I found myself within the industry that I knew nothing of, but which promised excellent benefits and a solid paycheck. Took me about three or four years to get where I wanted to be, but it was well-worth it in my opinion.

We are expendable. Every single one of us.

Cops are not. Firemen are not. Soldiers are not. I'm sure you're getting my drift. But all of them will be made to work for less by high unemployment.

You, me and the rest of "technical intelligentsia" are dime a dozen in the eyes of prospective employers.

Learn a trade or two. You might end up needing them.

This particular environment was created on purpose. And we're far from having seen the worst of it.

You'll never get Congress, Senate or White House to protect your job. Regardless of administration in charge.

All of them have been bought and paid for a long time ago, save for maybe a couple of principled hotheads such as Kucinich and Paul.

By the banksters and their friends.

I need eleven more years which I may or may not get where I am - don't know where you are and how far you may be from retirement. Ready to jump ships and shift gears once again, if needed, for the umpteenth time in my life.

May none of us have to do that. But may we be prepared should the need arise.

My $0.02 only.

Good luck to us all.

[JackBondLove]

These are good responses, but the fact remains that jobs are basically a zero sum game. There are only so many of them in the country, and if one is being taken by an immigrant or temp foreign worker, then that's another dispossessed citizen. In a good jobs environment, this is not a concern - in fact, it is a plus. However, we are not in a good jobs environment, and I think that as a society, we have, because of technological induced labor efficiency - as well as off/in-shoring to a virtually limitless source of incredibly low wage peoples - crossed past the point of labor singularity, in which there will never be enough jobs.

I really think that the only choice for the working man in the USA is a turn to Marxism.

[IamOld]

I generally agree with Shark and am deeply deeply grateful for all the advice and support he has given me - and everyone.

BUT - AMericans work FAR more than in Europe (Asia - 12/14 hour days for a pittance...) YET especially West Europe - is wealthier (Yes I know about Greece - tax evasion; Ireland - drank the toxic kool aid from the banksters) and workers work less hours but have far better benefits, etc YET are able to produce just as much.

We need to reinstate the tariffs - protectionism is NOT a dirty word - it's practiced by all nations except for the US (including China) - that will make imports more expensive than domestically produced goods - result - jobs including manufacturing will retun, wages will rise. Worked from the late 1700's through the early 1980's!

There are several different problems that you're trying to cram under one solution:

a) Millions of jobs have been physically moved (outsourced) outside of U.S. and will NOT come back unless we accept to work for the same amount of money as people in Asia do. I doubt that anyone on this forum would appreciate that kind of a paycheck.

b) American workers - when compared to their European or Asian counterparts - are usually more demanding while offering less. There is a reason that the very best folks in anti-virus world are Russians. Had you ever attended a class at any of their universities you'd understand why. That is also the main reason why Berlin wall was taken down...to bring down (in the long run) the price of labor in the U.S. Technology helped in making this happen faster. I'm *not* Russian, BTW.

c) There will never be an end to the problem discussed above until the U.S. education system vastly improves. I don't see that happening anytime soon, not within our lifetimes at the very least.

d) I'm in a different part of the same industry that you belong to, and will state the following: times have changed. Learn to adapt. I came to this country on one of those *horrible* visas when Clinton was President, after working for the same Fortune 10 company in two European countries. They paid a pretty penny to get my butt in here because they needed me at that moment, and make no mistake - I was paid as much as my American counterparts working on the same or similar projects. Fast forward a couple of years, and my own job got outsourced someplace else. I found myself within the industry that I knew nothing of, but which promised excellent benefits and a solid paycheck. Took me about three or four years to get where I wanted to be, but it was well-worth it in my opinion.

We are expendable. Every single one of us.

Cops are not. Firemen are not. Soldiers are not. I'm sure you're getting my drift. But all of them will be made to work for less by high unemployment.

You, me and the rest of "technical intelligentsia" are dime a dozen in the eyes of prospective employers.

Learn a trade or two. You might end up needing them.

This particular environment was created on purpose. And we're far from having seen the worst of it.

You'll never get Congress, Senate or White House to protect your job. Regardless of administration in charge.

All of them have been bought and paid for a long time ago, save for maybe a couple of principled hotheads such as Kucinich and Paul.

By the banksters and their friends.

I need eleven more years which I may or may not get where I am - don't know where you are and how far you may be from retirement. Ready to jump ships and shift gears once again, if needed, for the umpteenth time in my life.

May none of us have to do that. But may we be prepared should the need arise.

My $0.02 only.

Good luck to us all.

[banca rotta]

What's amazing is we are going to reach a point sooner rather then later where most businesses and the rich will be hurting due to the simple fact that they are all killing their customers by either throwing them out of work or by not paying a living wage to buy their stuff.

I agree with the fact that law suit happy Americans and unions are killing jobs as well as corporate greed, but I also feel the entire thing will implode because the customer base will simply die.

Whatever side one is on the current situation won't last because, between automating plants and out sourcing jobs there simply won't be enough customers to buy the products since the middle class is quickly dying.

Didn't some of you ever wonder with all the cheap, illegal mexican labor and Americans losing their jobs just who would support the businesses doing this? Soon we will get our answer. No one!

[jacko]

Yea, that's going to work well. For starters, how about being informed citizens like knowing about the country we live in. The Germans would never tolerate our banking systems, labor conditions and lack of safety net.

I generally agree with Shark and am deeply deeply grateful for all the advice and support he has given me - and everyone.

We need to reinstate the tariffs - protectionism is NOT a dirty word - it's practiced by all nations except for the US (including China) - that will make imports more expensive than domestically produced goods - result - jobs including manufacturing will retun, wages will rise. Worked from the late 1700's through the early 1980's!

[jacko]

You nailed it. We have to reinvent ourselves. Some of my income streams comes from trading and not to far off will be the majority. Since trading income is not earned, I may still qualify for public assistance. If the farmers can do it..-)

There are several different problems that you're trying to cram under one solution:

a) Millions of jobs have been physically moved (outsourced) outside of U.S. and will NOT come back unless we accept to work for the same amount of money as people in Asia do. I doubt that anyone on this forum would appreciate that kind of a paycheck.

b) American workers - when compared to their European or Asian counterparts - are usually more demanding while offering less. There is a reason that the very best folks in anti-virus world are Russians. Had you ever attended a class at any of their universities you'd understand why. That is also the main reason why Berlin wall was taken down...to bring down (in the long run) the price of labor in the U.S. Technology helped in making this happen faster. I'm *not* Russian, BTW.

c) There will never be an end to the problem discussed above until the U.S. education system vastly improves. I don't see that happening anytime soon, not within our lifetimes at the very least.

d) I'm in a different part of the same industry that you belong to, and will state the following: times have changed. Learn to adapt. I came to this country on one of those *horrible* visas when Clinton was President, after working for the same Fortune 10 company in two European countries. They paid a pretty penny to get my butt in here because they needed me at that moment, and make no mistake - I was paid as much as my American counterparts working on the same or similar projects. Fast forward a couple of years, and my own job got outsourced someplace else. I found myself within the industry that I knew nothing of, but which promised excellent benefits and a solid paycheck. Took me about three or four years to get where I wanted to be, but it was well-worth it in my opinion.

We are expendable. Every single one of us.

Cops are not. Firemen are not. Soldiers are not. I'm sure you're getting my drift. But all of them will be made to work for less by high unemployment.

You, me and the rest of "technical intelligentsia" are dime a dozen in the eyes of prospective employers.

Learn a trade or two. You might end up needing them.

This particular environment was created on purpose. And we're far from having seen the worst of it.

You'll never get Congress, Senate or White House to protect your job. Regardless of administration in charge.

All of them have been bought and paid for a long time ago, save for maybe a couple of principled hotheads such as Kucinich and Paul.

By the banksters and their friends.

I need eleven more years which I may or may not get where I am - don't know where you are and how far you may be from retirement. Ready to jump ships and shift gears once again, if needed, for the umpteenth time in my life.

May none of us have to do that. But may we be prepared should the need arise.

My $0.02 only.

Good luck to us all.

[IamOld]

Yea, that's going to work well. For starters, how about being informed citizens like knowing about the country we live in. The Germans would never tolerate our banking systems, labor conditions and lack of safety net.

EXACTLY - or the French, Danes, even the Canadians to a large extent.

Also, illegal immigration is almost nil on a monthly basis now thanks to crappy economy. BUT what they do need to put a stop to is the H1B visas - Indian/Russian computer folks for $25K/year, etc.

[bladerunner]

let's not compare the USA with European countries, remember we have 331+ million people...We are not the UK, France, or Germany. California has more souls than Denmark...

[bladerunner]

my bad...forget california..how about phoenix, az has more souls than denmark...

[shark66]

EXACTLY - or the French, Danes, even the Canadians to a large extent.

Also, illegal immigration is almost nil on a monthly basis now thanks to crappy economy. BUT what they do need to put a stop to is the H1B visas - Indian/Russian computer folks for $25K/year, etc.

I can guarantee you that NONE of the Indian or Russian computer geeks works for that type of money. They *start* at double of that sum with sky being the limit.. And I know hundreds of them, personally.

They just know their stuff a lot better than their American counterparts, and have significantly better work ethic, that's all.

It's not all the amount of money that something (or someone) costs, it's what you get in return...

Good luck to us all.

[IamOld]

I always hate to disagree, but the average H1B1 visa Indian computer guy makes about half...and work ethic - a large payroll processor with whom I've worked for ten years outsourced their report processing and (haha) bill collections to India - godawful service, effed up billing, bad reports, etc.

I can guarantee you that NONE of the Indian or Russian computer geeks works for that type of money. They *start* at double of that sum with sky being the limit.. And I know hundreds of them, personally.

They just know their stuff a lot better than their American counterparts, and have significantly better work ethic, that's all.

It's not all the amount of money that something (or someone) costs, it's what you get in return...

Good luck to us all.

[IamOld]

let's not compare the USA with European countries, remember we have 331+ million people...We are not the UK, France, or Germany. California has more souls than Denmark...

BUT the EU as a whole has about 440 million people!

[shark66]

I always hate to disagree, but the average H1B1 visa Indian computer guy makes about half...and work ethic - a large payroll processor with whom I've worked for ten years outsourced their report processing and (haha) bill collections to India - godawful service, effed up billing, bad reports, etc.

I wasn't talking about the jobs that were outsourced overseas. When you're paying someone buck a day you get what you paid for - folks reading from the script without any interest in the end result or repercussions that their attitude has on your business.

The nature of my job brings me in contact with these people every single day and that has been the case for the past five years. I've been inside just about every server room belonging to Fortune 500 companies in NYC. And I still stand by what I said. Even the much smaller fish pay people a lot more than what you're implying.

You don't buy entire neighborhoods in NY's five boroughs or NJ with 25K a year, no matter how smart you might be with your money.

The other popular choice are IBM or Bell System retirees who know this stuff extremely well and can accept work with no benefits included...

Good luck to us all.