Can a court deem a person in BK as being able to get a job at a certain salary?

[swampwiz]

I am wondering about this. I understand that in divorce and child support cases, the court can look at a husband who seems to be having trouble keeping down a job, and consider him guilty of "not trying enough", and deem his expected income potential as his income, and squeeze him accordingly (at least this is what a lot of older, divorced colleagues would tell me in my younger days. ) I was wondering if a BK court could do the same. I mean, if that were true, the court could basically treat someone like a slave.

There are a lot of folks like me who have reached an age and level of obsolecence (sp?) that it is very difficult for us to find work. <rant>Throw in the fact that this country doesn't seem to have a problem allowing foreign workers to take the jobs of American workers, even in the depths of the depression we're in (yes, with a real unemployment rate of 17%, I consider this to be like a depression - a depression whose effects are not vivid because we are wealthy enough and have such a great welfare state (although not THAT great) that we don't see masses of folks selling apples (although now they hang their cart on Ebay out of sight) on the street or living in tents.</rant>

It would be a huge case of cognitive dissonance for a judge to say that I was committing fraud thinking that I could get a proper job that could support the debt payments, and then saying that I should be able to get such a job!

[backtoschool]

Swampwiz, I think we all are trying to help you here, but is there a reason why you have to start so many threads? Many of these questions can be added onto some of your other threads. It is overwhelming to look at the top ten questions in this forum and they are all your questions, basically asking the same question from different angles. You want to know if you can declare chapter 7 bankruptcy, get a home loan, keep your land grant, keep your 30k in stock, and get rid of the credit card debt you accrued day trading.


Here is a recap of what I and others have answered in the other 567 threads you started on what will happen if you file bankruptcy:

1. The 30k in stocks will be taken by the trustee as an asset and distributed to your creditors.

2. If you file before this Spring, you may end up with an AP from your creditors due to the large amount of cash advances.

3. You domicile in Louisiana most likely and should file there.

4. Mortages are near impossible to get for 2-3 years after filing bankruptcy, so your chance of buying a house is not great.

5. The trustee cannot force you into indentured servitude working a job you don't want to work.

6. You are officially insolvent, welcome to the club.

If you could keep your admittedly interesting story to one or two threads it would be much easier to answer your questions.

[pookieny]

I don't see how a BK judge would make you get a job? Joblessness seems to be one of the biggest reasons people file.

Why are you so worried in all yours posts about being accused of fraud. Do you have a guilty conscience about something?

The best advice you have been given on this board is to talk to a lawyer.

[swampwiz]

If you had read my other recent post, you will see my plan: use the money I have - which technically is money that all along should have been in escrow, and that by the close of business Monday (when my sale today has cleared) will be back to being in escrow by virtue of being in a money market fund - and combine it with the sale of my homesite to buy a home that would qualify as a residence (it can be as cheap as possible so long as it would have a valid certificate of occupancy, and it would be bought contingent upon the sale of my homesite.) This should past muster since I basically obligated myself to the state to buy a home when I accepted the grant (and if I were to go through BK such that the court forced me to hand over the house, I would be totally absolved.)

So in response to your statements:

[1] the house will be taken, and the trustee will force me to sell, leaving me the $35K exemption in the process.

[2] I will wait as long as I need to (i.e., as long as my attorney tells me I need to), earning as low of an income as I need to to get by. (And if I have free rent, I could live on $300/mo food and $100/mo beer. )

[3] Agreed. It will be the last time I live in Louisiana, but I will be there until the judge says, "case dismissed".

[4] It will be an all cash sale

[5] As Dr, King would say, "free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I'm free at last"

[6] Thank you. Whenever something major comes along like this, I ask a ton of questions - it's my nature. I did the same thing when I had cancer 12 years ago (free and clear since then ).

As a side note, it is very much because of my cancer diagnosis that I always wanted to not veer too far into having excess cash that can be garnisheed in case the cancer would have come back. Perhaps my attorney could use that as a mitigating factor if things got "rough"?

[backtoschool]

If you had read my other recent post, you will see my plan: use the money I have - which technically is money that all along should have been in escrow, and by close of business tomorrow (when my sale today has cleared) will be back to being in escrow by virtue of being in a money market fund - and combine it with the money in my homesite to buy a home that qualifies as a residence (it can be as cheap as possible so long as it would have a valid certificate of occupancy, and it would be bought contingent upon the sale of my homesite.) This should past muster since I basically obligated myself to the state when I accepted the grant (and if I were to go through BK such that the court forced me to hand over the house, I would be totally absolved.)

So in response to your statements:

[1] the house will be taken, and the trustee will force me to sell, leaving me $35K in the process.

[2] I will wait as long as I need to (i.e., as long as my attorney tells me I need to), earning as low of an income as I need to to get by. (And if I have free rent, I could live on $300/mo food and $100/mo beer. )

[3] Agreed. It will be the last time I live in Louisiana, but I will be there until the judge says, "case dismissed"

[4] It will be an all cash sale

[5] As Dr, King would say, "free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I'm free at last"

[6] Thank you. Whenever something major comes along like this, I ask a ton of questions - it's my nature. I did the same thing when I had cancer 12 years ago (free and clear since then ).

As a side note, it is very much because of my cancer diagnosis that I always wanted to not veer too far into having excess cash that can be garnisheed in case the cancer would have come back. Perhaps my attorney could use that as a mitigating factor if things got "rough"?

I did read your plan in your other post, and it's a bit complicated, but could work. Timing will be the key of course. Some things to keep in mind as you execute this plan:

1. Do not take any more cash advances or use overdraft protection. This will only push your bankruptcy back more months.

2. Any cash or credit that you use to play the stock market while you are technically insolvent could trigger a "totality of circumstances" dismissal from the US Trustee if you are not careful. (ie, the US Trustee might ask, why you have money to play the stock market but not pay your bills....) So, no more playing the stock market for now.

3. I am assuming you plan to live in the house you buy, since if you just buy a house and don't live in it, that could trigger a lot of questions.

[swampwiz]

I don't see how a BK judge would make you get a job? Joblessness seems to be one of the biggest reasons people file.

Why are you so worried in all yours posts about being accused of fraud. Do you have a guilty conscience about something?

The best advice you have been given on this board is to talk to a lawyer.

Because evidently, even though I may have large credit lines, if I have no job, then from the reason of "insolvency", I shouldn't have been using my cards, either to spend on "luxuries", or to invest in the stock market when I thought I would be able to make some money, or even to live on while I try to rectify my situation. That is what I am concerned about.

I have always thought that a credit line is there for someone to use for whatever reason he wants, so long as he is not trying to stash real paper cash on the side to go through bankruptcy and have that little pot of gold in the end. I would think that it is up to the credit card bank to periodically have folks *sign* income statements if they want to check up on folks. I didn't recall a disclaimer on the credit card application that said, "warning, if you would ever be in a position in which your income would be less than 50% of your total debt payments, then you should consider yourself insolvent and you are to inform the issuer immediately upon penalty of no more than 5 years and 100 lashes ..."

I took the attitude that I was going to try like hell to get the proper job and do everything that would wind up all of my debt into my dream house at a super duper low interest rate. I thought I was going to make money, or at least not lose money in the stock market. But it did not happen for me.

All I wish for is a new beginning. With the exemptions I am entitled to, and with a clean bill of debt health, I should have time to find a decent job - and since I won't have the overhead of the mortgage and residual debt, it will be easier for me to get by. And in any case, I am almost ready to retire to some cheap place in Eastern Europe (after BK, I probably could start right then, but I think I want to build up a little cash first.)

[swampwiz]

I did read your plan in your other post, and it's a bit complicated, but could work. Timing will be the key of course. Some things to keep in mind as you execute this plan:

1. Do not take any more cash advances or use overdraft protection. This will only push your bankruptcy back more months.

2. Any cash or credit that you use to play the stock market while you are technically insolvent could trigger a "totality of circumstances" dismissal from the US Trustee if you are not careful. (ie, the US Trustee might ask, why you have money to play the stock market but not pay your bills....) So, no more playing the stock market for now.

3. I am assuming you plan to live in the house you buy, since if you just buy a house and don't live in it, that could trigger a lot of questions.

My response:

[1] My bank instituted a per draft charge unbeknownst to me (because I was on the road, I did not pick up my mail for quite some time), so I maxed it out and stayed there.

[2] I have sold my position today. The only playing of the stock market I will do is in my 401K (hint: international arbitraging can still work, although not as quite as it used to)

[3] I will be there. I had planned to look for work around the country, but in my situation, I will only do work in which I can live at home. Heck, I'd even join Gramps welcoming folks to Wal-Mart if I had to to properly get through this. Fortunately, I actually have an old client of mine (who is also a very dear friend) that wants some work done. I think I will negotiate with him a rock bottom rate, and just cruise through this.

[MSbklawyer]

No. Bankruptcy courts cannot make you get a job or get a better job. It's violative of the constitutional prohibition against involuntary servitude.

Technically, divorce courts don't do that either. They order support to be paid at a certain level. How it gets paid, the court doesn't care. Courts can order you to pay debts. Courts can order you to support your ex-spouse and/or your children at a certain level and can hold you in contempt if you are capable of complying but choose not to. But a court cannot order you to labor except as punishment for a crime.

[whipster1]

Why this guy/girl/it still gets responses is beyond me. Clearly this is some sort of troll here to pull chains.

[ForumReader]

Why this guy/girl/it still gets responses is beyond me. Clearly this is some sort of troll here to pull chains.

Oh I agree, there is something somewhat off about his/her/it posts and threads being all over the place.

[DeadManCrawling]

Whipster, you may becorrect.

However, this sort of mental excersise might help someone years from now, who is running a search on similar terms.

Whether or not the persone is genuine is really not important. The repsonses here might help someone many years from now.

From that perspective, if no other, there may be value to this.

[whipster1]

If you remember Debtmonster, he was going to defraud everyone and drive a new car for years without paying...where do these people crawl out from?

[backtoschool]

Whipster, you may becorrect.

However, this sort of mental excersise might help someone years from now, who is running a search on similar terms.

Whether or not the persone is genuine is really not important. The repsonses here might help someone many years from now.

From that perspective, if no other, there may be value to this.

I totally agree with you DeadManCrawling and that is why I am replying. I see these threads as case studies that might have some useful concepts for people searching on cash advances, or involuntary employment, etc...

[swampwiz]

I tell you what, whenever I am finished, if I end up in Louisiana not too far from new Orleans, and you come visit New Orleans, and I'm around, I'll come to visit you. Or if you would like me to come visit, just tell me where you're at, and if I'm in town, I'll come visit you. I'll show you all the documents.

[music12]

while many questions have been posed by swampwiz in many different threads, i don't see any problem with that in itself. people have different ways of thinking about things and processing them, and if that means they have to ask a million different questions, so be it. it might be hard on the forum readers to keep up with, but there is really nothing wrong with it.