Do you think that the general public considers us as "shysters"?

[espo1357]

I couldn't agree less. Obama is the one man that is holding the tide against the economic royalists who are out to destroy the American Middle Class. He is the man who has delivered us to the promised land of universal health care. He is the man who is defending Social Security and Medicare against the forces of evil (Ryan.)

You have to be kidding.

Universal Healthcare does more harm than good, especially since it waters down the quality of healthcare. Where is the incentive for people to go to school and study medicine when they have little incentive when they graduate? And why should it be required for everyone to have insurance? Its BS.

Another thing: Corporations are holding 2-3 trillion in cash because they have no clue what Obama is going to do next, with his endless regulations and flip flops (see Steve Wynn, a Wharton grad and a man who is probably the most influential person in the history of Nevada).

Obama is a flip flop, community organizer, with no business experience, a typical politician with nothing to offer but false hope and lies.

[IamOld]

I'm sorry that is empricially not true espo - universal health care nations have BETTER outcomes for at least HALF of what the US spends per person - less infant mortality, longer lifespans, less chronic disease, etc etc etc. Sorry - our healthcare system is broken - it's unaffordable - it is the only one where people wind up here - in bk - because of it. Is any system perfect? No - but this one is horrendous.

Why would you become a dr...well, I truly truly hope it's NOT for the money - that is the WRONG reason to go into medicine, and frankly, that thinking is very...American these days. Having said that, no dr in Canada, or Germany, or the UK, drives, say, a used Kia, if you know what I mean.

Corporations are hoarding cash because Obama doesn't have the intestinal fortitude of FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, LBJ, JFK. They're hoarding cash because they do NOT CARE about us. PERIOD

And by the way - since when is "business" experience a requirement to run a GOVERNMENT which is NOT a business???? FDR was not a businessman - Hoover was. Eisenhower was not, etc etc

You have to be kidding.

Universal Healthcare does more harm than good, especially since it waters down the quality of healthcare. Where is the incentive for people to go to school and study medicine when they have little incentive when they graduate? And why should it be required for everyone to have insurance? Its BS.

Another thing: Corporations are holding 2-3 trillion in cash because they have no clue what Obama is going to do next, with his endless regulations and flip flops (see Steve Wynn, a Wharton grad and a man who is probably the most influential person in the history of Nevada).

Obama is a flip flop, community organizer, with no business experience, a typical politician with nothing to offer but false hope and lies.

[espo1357]

I'm sorry that is empricially not true espo - universal health care nations have BETTER outcomes for at least HALF of what the US spends per person - less infant mortality, longer lifespans, less chronic disease, etc etc etc. Sorry - our healthcare system is broken - it's unaffordable - it is the only one where people wind up here - in bk - because of it. Is any system perfect? No - but this one is horrendous.

Why would you become a dr...well, I truly truly hope it's NOT for the money - that is the WRONG reason to go into medicine, and frankly, that thinking is very...American these days. Having said that, no dr in Canada, or Germany, or the UK, drives, say, a used Kia, if you know what I mean.

Corporations are hoarding cash because Obama doesn't have the intestinal fortitude of FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, LBJ, JFK. They're hoarding cash because they do NOT CARE about us. PERIOD

And by the way - since when is "business" experience a requirement to run a GOVERNMENT which is NOT a business???? FDR was not a businessman - Hoover was. Eisenhower was not, etc etc

I am not going to get into a fact finding mission with you, but it you think the quality of HC is better in a universal system, you are missing some strong evidence.

Also, if you think doctors go into medicine for reasons other than money or job security, you live in a fantasy land.

Lastly, corporations only care about the bottom line. Why should they care about us? If they did business this way (cared only about us), they would not exist.

I am all for corporate accountability, but you also seem to lack any common sense on how the world actually operates.

Sorry if this is rude, but I don't agree with you at all.

[bcohen]

I couldn't agree less. Obama is the one man that is holding the tide against the economic royalists who are out to destroy the American Middle Class. He is the man who has delivered us to the promised land of universal health care. He is the man who is defending Social Security and Medicare against the forces of evil (Ryan.)

Haha. You're kidding, right? I assume you realize that this economic collapse was caused by corporations closing factories and offices here and moving the jobs to foreign countries--not irresponsible spending by the middle and lower classes. And with the politicians pandering to corporations to engineer a tax code that rewards companies for shipping our jobs overseas, this is a trend which will surely get worse for the foreseeable future!

We have lost even more jobs under 3 years of Obama than we did under 8 years of Bush, and those jobs are not coming back. So tell me again how that "hope and change" is working out for you, 'cause it's sure not working out for me!

[IamOld]

bcohen, bush lost about 3 mil jobs - it's not Obama v Bush here - it is the same corporatist system.

Haha. You're kidding, right? I assume you realize that this economic collapse was caused by corporations closing factories and offices here and moving the jobs to foreign countries--not irresponsible spending by the middle and lower classes. And with the politicians pandering to corporations to engineer a tax code that rewards companies for shipping our jobs overseas, this is a trend which will surely get worse for the foreseeable future!

We have lost even more jobs under 3 years of Obama than we did under 8 years of Bush, and those jobs are not coming back. So tell me again how that "hope and change" is working out for you, 'cause it's sure not working out for me!

[espo1357]

"Barry" is just clueless when it comes to "reality".

As a community organizer, he lived in a fantasy land, where people get their money for nothing and their chicks for free. As my good friend and former mailman once told me, the worst day of the month was when the welfare checks where issued in the neighborhood, because if that check was not there, there was hell to pay!

What a way to live, depending on the government for your well being!

Guess moving to New Zealand or Chile isn't a bad idea if you are young and single, especially if "Barry" fools everyone again with his "change".

[IamOld]

I think esp, that we cannot adopt the mindset that is now in vogue in this country that money motivates people above all else - that is our problem.

By the way, here are the states on the efficiency, outcomes, etc., of the health care systems of the OECD countries. From the horse's mouth so to speak. http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html Go here and download the excel file. It's an eye-opener!

And yes, corporations used to care about "us," because the system at large encouraged that - encouraged the system of somewhat paternalistic employers, etc, and the country thrived. That is a fact - the US had unprecedented economic growth between 1945 through the early 80's.

Now, espo, true, my addiction to credit does play part for me being here - and I recognize that. I am and will always be a recovering credit addict - I know that. But yet had I and spouse not lost our jobs year before last and last year, and our new ones pay, together 60% of what we made before, we wouldn't be here. SO having said that - on the business side of my life, I'm quite good, and yes, that was a bit rude my friend. I actually teach how the world operates on the univ level, and my employers certainly pay me (not as much as before) for that same appreciation.

Remember, disagreement is not the same as disloyalty :-) But I would frankly even take the UK's NHS (which is NOT the best universal health care system) over the mess here.

By the way, Germans had universal health care since the mid 1880's!!!!

I just literally weep at the economic INTENTIONAL destruction I see around me, and remember that when I was a kid in the late 70's and early 80's we had it much better.

I am not going to get into a fact finding mission with you, but it you think the quality of HC is better in a universal system, you are missing some strong evidence.

Also, if you think doctors go into medicine for reasons other than money or job security, you live in a fantasy land.

Lastly, corporations only care about the bottom line. Why should they care about us? If they did business this way (cared only about us), they would not exist.

I am all for corporate accountability, but you also seem to lack any common sense on how the world actually operates.

Sorry if this is rude, but I don't agree with you at all.

[IamOld]

I do like NZ - except that it is quite the social-democracy with universal health care, and Chile is slowly getting back there....

"Barry" is just clueless when it comes to "reality".

As a community organizer, he lived in a fantasy land, where people get their money for nothing and their chicks for free. As my good friend and former mailman once told me, the worst day of the month was when the welfare checks where issued in the neighborhood, because if that check was not there, there was hell to pay!

What a way to live, depending on the government for your well being!

Guess moving to New Zealand or Chile isn't a bad idea if you are young and single, especially if "Barry" fools everyone again with his "change".

[espo1357]

Well, good luck with that line of thinking IamOld.

If we continue to give the gov't more power, we will be screwed. Well, we already are screwed with the welfare society and police state we currently live in, so I don't think things can really get much worse.

[uuwwee]

ya, the rich play by different rules than others. do as they say, and not as they do.

To believe that I used to think that wall street executives were actually super smart. Sure, they have above average intelligence, but they are more crooked than smart.

Your comment on wall street executives reminds me of a funny story recently told to me by a friend who works for an up and coming IT consulting company that was so excited to work on a joint project with big multinational management consulting company that sounds a little like McDonald's. They were so excited to learn from the best but realized in the end that the only real capabilities the MC company displayed were awesome sales skills and mastery in swindling the IT consulting company of its credit and profit in the deal. The IT guys were robbed so blindly that they had no choice but to be impressed.

I think I might sort of disagree with you about wall street execs not being super smart though. In my mind, they may or may not score much higher or even as high as you on an IQ test or the GMAT but i think they are definitely geniuses at whatever it takes to be in their position, be it swindling, sales, schmoozing, or something else as well.

[IamOld]

Well, good luck with that line of thinking IamOld.

If we continue to give the gov't more power, we will be screwed. Well, we already are screwed with the welfare society and police state we currently live in, so I don't think things can really get much worse.

I couldn't agree with you more re police state. BUT it's a question as to what government is for, and to whom it is responsible, and who runs it. And by the way, in Germany, France, Canada, the gov't doesn't "own" the doctors, hospitals, etc. Look up Germany's system (or that of France). I think we've more in common than you think.

[dman]

I wouldn't be surprised if all of these negative comments are genuine. Until recently I had hard time getting my head around the idea that I should BK rather than try to work it out somehow although that somehow would just lead me down to a road with little chance of success even though I'm probably in a much better position to BK than most. Much of the public, me included, were brainwashed at a young age that because we have a higher moral standard we should never break the rules or even play by the rules when there is a hint that we may be receiving an unfair advantage. Some people even take this reasoning to the extreme by not reporting their charitable donations to the IRS. As a result we go through life pigeonholing ourselves in the most disadvantageous positions in work, relationships, taxes, and other finances.

This may sound a little crazy to some but I say let's play by the rules but to the best of our advantage, and let's not ever feel bad about doing so. Otherwise, how will you every do anything really productive in life? I'm talking about outside of BK as well. Start being ambitious and recognizing your God given strengths, and using them to do great things for you, your family, and everyone you touch and feel good about that instead. Because really we are all freaking geniuses at whatever we focus on, its just that some of us are geniuses at stupid things like blame, guilt, shame, and using rules to our disadvantage when we could be spending that energy in love, resourcefulness, and positively impacting our lives and every life we have the privilege of touching.

I've been thinking about discharging since I joined and started lurking this forum and finally i'm going to press the button.

If someone doesn't like you taking advantage of the rules, then they need to get involved in getting those rules changed.

Next time someone says something bad about people who file bankruptcy, ask them if they have/had kids? If yes, ask if they ever claimed them as a dependent on their taxes (answer would be yes). Then tell them how you find it morally wrong that they would try get out of paying their fair share of taxes just because they procreated. They'll probably argue that they're not doing anything wrong, they didn't have kids just to get the tax credit, there's nothing illegal about it, etc. Tell them it's the same way with bankruptcy...you didn't get deep in debt just so you could file bankruptcy, there's nothing illegal about it, etc.

[shark66]

If we continue to give the gov't more power, we will be screwed. Well, we already are screwed with the welfare society and police state we currently live in, so I don't think things can really get much worse.

Very well said, for the most part...however...

Not only CAN the things get much worse, they WILL and in a hurry...which might not be a bad thing in the long run...

As I've stated in another thread, "global economy" as we know it needs to file BK and start fresh, so *maybe* our grandchildren will stand a chance of not being serfs...

Good luck to us all.

[dman]

Guess moving to New Zealand or Chile isn't a bad idea if you are young and single, especially if "Barry" fools everyone again with his "change".

I may disagree with some of your opinions, but...basically I don't trust either party fully. Consequently, I have my own exit strategy in place. Let's just say that I now have a visa that's better than all those platinum ones everyone seems so eager to get. If I so choose, I can use my new visa to stay in New Zealand indefinitely.

[houston7]

People on other websites have a negative opinion of those of us who have filed bankruptcy?

The horror!!!

Did you people know that there is also a website where people have negative opinions of the unemployed and unions?

It's a bankruptcy forum.

I am sure you have all heard of it.