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    Attorney consult follow up/ Ch 7 eligibility issue...

    Well, I survived our consult appt this morning. However, I am feeling very confused since going and even more worried.

    Can someone clarify the issue for me regarding qualifying for a Chapter 7 related to income? My understanding was that we could apply for a BK7 without an automatic presumption of abuse if our income was below our state's median income. So, assuming we were to file this month, I added up our income for Aug-Jan (past 6 months) and got approx $65K. The old median income number for a 4 person household in PA (we have 2 kids) was $68K and as of 2/1/07 went to $70K. This attorney said there is no way we could qualify for a BK7 due to our income being too high.

    When I asked him to try to qualify my understanding of the median income issue, he said we can't use just a number for our state as we live in a lower cost area of our state, so the numbers here are lower. He (and his BK paralegal) explained we have to use local numbers. I told them that I understood we needed to use local numbers for the second part of the means test, but I didn't realize there were median income numbers other than by state for the first part of the test.

    As I understood it, because we were under the median, we didn't need to do the second part of the means test.

    Am I incorrect in my understanding? If so, can anyone direct me to the local numbers in PA I should be using for median income?

    So, he told us there is no way we would qualify for a BK7, it will need to be a BK13. That threw me for a loop. He also said we would never qualify for the BK7 due to our high amount of consumer debt - just over $100K. I understood that because it is so huge, we would be more closely scrutinized and while that unnerved me, it didn't worry me as this debt has been building for years and we don't have anything to hide. Some poor decisions for sure, but nothing we are hiding. I just didn't know that would automatically disqualify us for a BK7. (House is current, cars are paid for).

    Can anyone shed any light on this for me? I thought I had a basic understanding and now I feel like an idiot.

    I didn't feel a great connection to him, although he was nice enough. I felt like he seemed to feel like my dh should have been answering the questions rather than me but dh said he didn't pick up that vibe. Given the hours dh works, I will be handling most of the communications, etc so this left me feeling a little off. Oh, he also told me to stop taking notes. I guess I was irritating him, but I prefer to write things down so I remember them.

    Of concern to me also, was that the waiting room is right off of a room the BK paralegal was working in (which is the reception area). She was reviewing case info with him and making calls, etc. Without trying to listen, we could clearly hear her conversations with clients names used and dollar amounts, etc. Ex. "Mr. XXXX, the trustee wants a listing of what you spent the $17K on." Made me really uncomfortable. I realize that bankruptcies are public record, etc but it just seemed so casual with the info. I hope I am not being too sensitive about all this.

    So, we have appt scheduled with another attorney next week and may try to set up another one. I just want to be more sure of my knowledge before the next appt.

    Thanks for any info you can share!

    reallynervous

    #2
    That lawyer is simply trying to push you into a 13.

    To double his fees. Get rid of him.
    The median income is for the STATE.
    If you are over the median, there's the possibility on the means test that you may have to detail your actual expenses, rather than use the IRS guidelines. But if you are under the STATE median you do not need the means test.
    If you feel you really need to use a lawyer, or just want more advice to file yourself, keep going to free consults- one right after the other with your questions. You will be AMAZED at the wildly varying and conflicting information you will be getting. Do lots of research on your own, also.

    Comment


      #3
      It is a FACT that attorneys make more off of Chapter 13's....... thus they prefer them.......

      Go ahead and have several more consulations with other attornies and get some feedback from them..... and then let us know what they tell you.....

      In the meantime - stay COOL, CALM, AND COLLECTED......

      If you need to take notes - DO SO................since when is this not a free country????

      Keep us posted.
      Minny

      "It's amazing the paths that our feet sometimes follow in life".

      My suggestions are from "personal experience" and research only. Do not consider this as legal advice. Each bankruptcy case is different.

      Comment


        #4
        I also don't like the sound of this lawyer.

        The note taking thing would have really bothered me. You need to fully understand what he is telling you and if writing notes allows you to do so he should have encouraged that. If you feel that he is a touch chauvinistic. If that is true or not, you still probably won't work well with him.

        As for the median numbers - You qualify for a chapter seven if you are below the median for your state.

        It sounds like you need to schedule a couple more consultations.
        It's good to know, your homework paid off and helped you realize that this lawyer is probably not the one for you.
        Last edited by JollyGG; 02-07-2007, 11:03 AM.
        Filed: 10/26/2006
        Discharged: 03/05/2007
        Closed: 5/19/2008 - Asset case due to balance transfer and income tax refund

        Comment


          #5
          I would find another attorney......

          when you posted that he said your debt was too high............what??? There is no limit. I asked our attorney since we have $125K of unsecured debt if that would be a problem, he said no it is not that uncommon. I would get a second opinion.

          Also, if you have nothing to hide and the debt is over a couple of years, I woudl not worry. Now us, on the other hand, accumulated this debt all in 2006........so I am a little worried!

          Comment


            #6
            Like other posters in this thread, I would schedule a few more consults with other attorneys. IMO, you should leave the attorneys office feeling better and not more confused and/or more scared. On the other hand, this was your first and it can be quite overwhelming. Now that you've got one under your belt, a second will not seem that bad.

            That aside, whatever attorney you choose should be one that explains everything to you and answers any/all of your questions.....not to mention handles themself professionally. And yes, you should write down anything you feel is important to know/remember. It's very important that you understand everyting about the BK process.

            I wouldn't be too concerned about the amount of debt you have at this point. Yes, there are some that have had their case more closely examined because of their debt load, but try not to let that concern you. You accumulated the debt over the years. IMO, I think you'll be okay.

            LOL......funny how attorney/client relationships are to be strictly confidential and you know more about another persons BK than your own......LOL!
            Bankruptcy History:
            Chapter 7 filed - 10/12/2005 - Asset
            Discharged - 02/16/2006
            Case Closed - 11/08/2007

            A banker is a fellow who lends you his umbrella when the sun is shining and wants it back the minute it begins to rain ~ Mark Twain

            All suggestions are based on personal experience and research and SHOULD NOT be construed as legal advice as I am NOT an attorney. Always consult with competent counsel in your area with regards to your particular situation.

            Comment


              #7
              I agree with everyone, you need to see several more lawyers asap and get feedback from them. Also do your own homework, make yourself fully informed of the BK process.

              The most important thing beyond finding an attorney that is good, is finding one you feel comfortable with. I can tell from your post you didn't feel too comfortable with this one, so go no farther with him. Being below the median you automatically qualify for Ch7, the only thing that would prevent a Ch7, would be if you were in arrears on a secured debt that you wanted to keep, OR your schedules showed you do in fact have some disposable income. There is no limit to the amount of debt you can have, you are correct that anything over 100k will get a little more attention that those under that amount.

              On the note taking thing, I will share my experience with you. At my first meeting with our lawyer (hubby works so I knew I would be the major player in the meetings and convos), I showed up with my 9yr old son in tow, and began to take notes, the lawyer, who has been doing this for over 25 yrs and is a former trustee, immediately said "there is no need for you to take notes." I looked at him in suprise and was thinking to myself .... uh oh I know I will forget something then. He could tell I was a little bit concerned and said "The reason there is no need is because I am writing down for you everything I am telling you I need, and I will give you this packet to read with all of the important information you should look at." It was more like a bk book than a packet, but it was very informative. Now the first lawyer we had seen prior to the one we hired, handed me one piece of paper listing what she wanted from us, and made me feel like I was taking up her precious time, so it was a hurry along, hurry along, "You don't need to worry about that yet, let's just get you filed first" kinda thing.

              The point is, if you feel that "bad" vibe on the first consult, run don't walk away from that person.
              "Try to save money. Someday it may be valuable again." - Anonymous

              Comment


                #8
                12/12/06 - Filed No Asset Chapter 7 - 85K on CC's
                01/16/07 - 341 drum circle 02/06/07 -US Trustee Review
                03/19/07 - Objection Deadline - 03/21/07 Discharged/Closed
                sigpic

                Comment


                  #9
                  Unfortunately, you met one of the same attnys we had the great displeasure to speak with as well. We were clearly under the Median and we got the Ch 13 song and dance too.

                  There is only ONE MEDIAN INCOME per State.

                  The costs differences that person was referring to would come into play in your local costs. The housing costs, utilities, and such for the County you live in in PA. Local transportation costs. If you live in a major City in PA, Philadelphia or Pittsburg, versus general "area" costs. That's if you had to complete the Means Test. Which you shouldn't.

                  You're below the Median. Your attny should complete Form B22A. The attny compares your earned income to the Median on Lines 13 and 14. On Line 15, your attny checks to box for "Presumption does not Arise" and you're done with the Means Test.

                  Your debt level MAY be scrutinized. That's not a given. $100K+ in unsecured debt can be a trigger. BUT if you have "Totality of Circumstances" such as divorce, death of a loved one, loss of job, illness, the UST's Office will consider that as well.

                  As others here have said, this attny was trying to pull a BK filing scam. It's the oldest trick in the BK attny's book. Push people who qualify and need Ch 7 into a Ch 13 because the fee is higher. Knowing full well the people cannot keep up the payments. Then you come back in a couple of years to get Converted to the Ch 7 you shoulda had to start with. Kah-Ching, another fee.

                  BK attnys do not count on people "shopping" their financial issues around. And, in fact, many people go with the first attny they speak with. This is the time you swallow your pride and schedule at least 2-3 more Consults with different attnys.
                  Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
                  Discharged - 12/2006
                  Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
                  Closed - 04/2007

                  I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

                  Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thank you!!!!

                    You all are so great! Thanks for your replies. I feel better now, mostly because it seems like a BK7 is still a possibility. I am glad that I knew enough to know to question what he told me. Thanks to those of you who share your knowledge so the rest of us are better prepared!

                    I am definitely going to try to set up another appt in addition to the one already scheduled so I have more input. I am really anxious to see what our next consult says.

                    BKTango, you mentioned not qualifying for a BK7 if we would have disposable income even if we are under the median. I am rolling that around in my head and wondering if he might have made the assumption that we wouldn't qualify due to that reason based upon thinking we would have disposable income using local numbers. I know he did say that the fact that we didn't have a car payment or other secured debt worked against us as we wouldn't have a payment he could include for that. (They even suggested we might want to try to get a newer car before filing. The last thing I can think of right now is more debt).

                    Even if that was what he was thinking, when I specifically questioned him about the median income issue, I would think he would have said that yes, would initially qualify based upon income on the first part of the means test, but that we MAY then be disqualified based upon disposable income.

                    He didn't ask anything about our monthly payments, so he didn't have much to go on the make his assumption. He asked our outstanding mortgage balances, but not our monthly payments, etc.. We also have sizable prescription costs each month, etc..

                    I do appreciate you sharing that we might not qualify for a BK7 for that issue as hopefully I will be better prepared to discuss it at the next appt.

                    Thanks again so much everyone! As we left the appt, I told my dh I couldn't wait to get home and get on these boards.

                    reallynervous

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You are under the median, so your expenses don't matter.

                      If you were OVER the median, lots of people suggest buying a new car, since that expense would be deducted from your disposable income, therefore possibly helping you 'pass' the means test.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Maybe he's thinking about the expenses he can take into Court.

                        When you're below the Median, it comes down to I vs J. One attny kept saying that over and over again. "It's all comes down to I vs J." to us. Like a broken record actually. "I vs J." "I vs J."

                        But anyway,......... I digress.

                        Schedule I is your Income. Schedule J is your actual monthly expenses.

                        What the Schedules allowables say you can take for Food and Clothes and such may be way more than what your Court is actually used to seeing.

                        For example,.........

                        Our Schedules allowable for Food for a family of 6 was $1300/mo. We saved receipts and knew we spent $1100/mo. Our attny said $1100/mo was too much. The Court would never allow that. He filed our Schedule J showing $800/mo for Food.

                        Sounds harsh,.......... BUT, BK filers live frugally in many areas.

                        We hadn't bought clothes in eons. Except when we absolutely had to. So our actual clothing expense was only about $25/mo. Our Schedules allowable for Clothes was something like $300/mo. There were several areas on Schedule J like that. So our attny padded the areas where we didn't spend as much to cover areas where we spent more.

                        Basically, our attny rearranged our monthly budget, on paper, to fit what he knew the Court would accept seeing.
                        Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
                        Discharged - 12/2006
                        Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
                        Closed - 04/2007

                        I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

                        Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          You are welcome! It's not so much your wouldn't "qualify" for a Ch7 if you showed disposable income as per say....they would more than likely push for a Ch13. Look at it this way, if you show on your schedules that you have $$$ a month left over after paying for all your need to, then it looks to them that you now have $$$ a month you can a Ch13 payment with. Just make sure you are including every expense you and your family have, think of everything you KNOW you spend money on, down to the stamps you buy. You just don't want a "large" figure sitting there in the blank after your expenses/income.

                          Remember even not having a "new" car you are allowed to have repair/maintenance/ownership costs.
                          "Try to save money. Someday it may be valuable again." - Anonymous

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'm glad to hear you're going to talk with another attorney. I know if mine gave me a bad vibe, I'd go elsewhere for sure! On the amount, we had over $100K in unsecured debt and they never thought twice about it. While I'm sure it "can" happen, it most likely won't.

                            Good luck to you on your next appointment!!
                            Yo ho, Yo ho, a pirates life for me
                            Discharged 9/1/04

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by reallynervous View Post
                              So, assuming we were to file this month, I added up our income for Aug-Jan (past 6 months) and got approx $65K.
                              Thanks for any info you can share!
                              If your six month income was 65K there is no way you are eligible for Chapter 7 and your attorney is correct in suggesting a Chapter 13...
                              NOTE: I am not a lawyer...any advice I give is for entertainment purposes only. Legal questions should be directed to competent counsel. I am just a troll. Or a Toad.

                              Comment

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