My personal struggle with morality, pride and shame...

[CorkScrewIt]

As the subject implies, I am having a major struggle at the present time. In an effort to keep this post as short as possible I will do my best to give the basics.

I am a 44-year-old, married male with two kids who live in central Florida. My wife is a stay-at-home mother. Over the past 15 (or so) years I have worked a few positions that have all paid quite well (90k-125k). With that said, I am now in a position that pays about 55k (last 7 months). (Of course, being that I am posting here, I am sure you know where this is, likely, going.)

The last four years of my life have been riddled with trials and tribulations. Many of those were due to a grinding, though successful, career that was sending me in a downward spiral. As a result, I began gambling (again), having many marital issues and neglecting my family. Quite frankly, I didn't care about much. It took a "position elimination" to get me back on track. At the time it seemed like the worst thing ever but in hindsight it was more than a blessing in disguise. I am back to enjoying my wife and kids and, happily, haven't gambled in more than two years (and plan to keep it that way).

This leads me to my current struggle(s). Up until four months ago I had a credit rating of 834 and have never missed a payment (on anything). Geez! Four years ago we were completely debt free with the exception of a mortgage and one car payment. Today (here comes the SHAME) I sit with an exorbitant amount of credit card debt. The vast majority of this debt is solely due to the aforementioned "downward spiral" incurred by myself and not my wife or kids. I feel major guilt and hate the fact that it is brought up whenever there are any kind of marital disagreements. (By the way, my wife is 100% correct when she throws it back at me. I do know this.)

My financial breakdown:

Savings = Only about $2k (used to be more than 35k)

Retirement Accounts = $125k (my wife's retirement accounts = $250k)

Mortgage: $1380/month

Home Market Value = 285k (owe 170k)

Utilities = $500 month (includes electricity, water, cable/Internet)

Cell Phones = $220/month

Groceries: $700/month (varies)

CC Debt = $78k in 10 accounts (all were current but are not anymore, two are paid late, one just went into collections)

Student Loans = Paid off a long time ago

Salary = $55k/year (which will go up in future but not in the near future)

Much of our lifestyle has been trimmed in all ways possible. Of course, groceries scale back when we can and we don't go to restaurants. The credit cards have drowned us out. One has gone to collections because I, simply, don't have the funds for it anymore which brings me to my MORAL dilemma. I don't believe in screwing any of my creditors. The thought of it makes me uneasy. However I tried to speak to Barclay about lowering my payments but they were not interested in working with me since I had already used my Covid-19 forbearance period. My only choice was to put it on the side hence the collections situation.

I figured we would implement the Dave Ramsey mentality of attacking the lowest debts first and deal with consequences from the larger ones. Of course, this is not a winning strategy but it is the only way I know to try and fight out of the situation. Well... That was until I started reading more online. I am beginning to believe that fighting this might be a waste of time and energy.

I am not sure if I am, by definition, BANKRUPT but it sure feels like it. I have too much PRIDE to admit it (right now). I don't have the guts to speak to a lawyer but I am beginning to feel like it might be my only option. I understand that I would be dropping an atomic bomb on my credit history but, at this point, I am mentally prepared for this.

Knowing what you know are you able to offer me some advice? Am I a bankruptcy candidate? I just feel like I need a "RESTART" but, most importantly I want my wife and kids to be detached from my stupidity.

[justbroke]

You are, by definition, insolvent. Whether you declare bankruptcy to cure that insolvency should be a business decision. You have a bunch of equity in your home, but at least you're in Florida. For Florida, if you had your home more than 3 years or so, you'd have no issues with exempting the equity in the home.

There's no moral dilemma in bankruptcy. It's entirely transactional and is a business decision. If the forms show that you can afford to pay something back to your (unsecured) creditors, then your creditors would receive something in a Chapter 13 bankruptcy.

The gambling has to stop. Bankruptcy will never cure gambling. I have incurred some debt through gambling, but I knew that a bankruptcy would never cure that feeling. A bankruptcy trustee will want to know that gambling is thoroughly out of your system.

I robbed my future (401k) trying to stay afloat and spent thousands on credit cards. In the end, it was all for naught and I ended up filing bankruptcy.

Welcome to BKForum. I'm sure others will tell you that you are not alone.

[shipo]

CorkScrewIt, job #1, rid your life of gambling, period, full-stop, the end.

As for your current financial situation compared to many of us, you're worse off than some, better off than others. In my case, my income was a little over double yours, my debt was well over double yours, and my monthly expenses were more or less on par with yours. I had a very long credit history, upwards of 35 years when I filed for Chapter 13 in 2015, and yes, you are correct, bankruptcy is truly the nuclear option, and yes, my credit score dropped from the 800s to the 500s, and yes, it sucks to not be credit worthy for the first time in your adult life.

My Chapter 13 was discharged in March of this year, and I've managed to work my credit rating back up to the low 700s for two of the three major rating agencies (Experian, as is fairly typical, lags showing me in the low 600s). The good news is, there is life after bankruptcy, but in the meantime, it can be rough sledding. The best advice I can give is interview a number of lawyers, and pick the best.

[Carmella]

Do not delay Bankruptcy see an attorney soon, find someone experienced in your area. If you are not comfortable with them go to another to find the right fit. From what I have read the attorney can make a big difference if they know your court well and they are responsive to your needs/communicate well.

I say Do Not Delay because my husband and I put it off for so long because it was so emotional and yes there is pride involved. I think I know how you feel, like you really messed up and worse. Putting off the inevitable just makes it worse and the stress after BK is so much better/manageable than the stress beforehand. You are making $55 K and you debt alone is more than your income. And your home value is in my opinion high for your income (I understand you had a higher income when you purchased it). If you do the math IMHO it will turn out to be so difficult to get out of using a Dave Ramsey method and you might just end up in BK any way. Your credit cards are starting to go into collections, you can still ignore it. I ignored it for quite a LONG time. It takes a long time before they take you to court. Yes, my husband and I had been to court. We stalled the court process for a while (legally just dragging it out) until the attorney, the lady who owns the practice gave me the go to Jesus type talk.

If you need counseling for gambling get it. I understand from reading other people's posts on this forum that is very difficult habit/addiction.

Go to an attorney and see what they have to say and what your options are.

It really sucks to be in this position, but as they say, "it is what it is." A good attorney is not going to judge you. If they have been in business a long time they have seen it all. The first attorney we saw reminded me a used car salesman stereotype (no offense to anyone in that profession! We know a great used car salesman!). The next firm we went to was so great, professional, non judgemental "you made some mistakes, but you are fixing them now" that simple sentence felt so good to hear as well as the way we were treated.

Remember Pride comes before the Fall and once debt spirals out of control partly through our fault (admit you made mistakes) and partly through circumstance (it's not all your fault). In my experience I will say that BK is our saving grace. It is not fun, it is not easy. Most of us have ups and downs, most of us have said the stress is so much less after filing. BK is not for the weak, we have to preserve through the good, the bad and the ugly for 3-5 yrs in Chapter 13. In Chapter 13 you pay back a percentage of your debt. Our income is higher even though our credit card debit is more than our combined income. We are paying back 100% over 5 years. If you pay back a lower percentage there is a chance your percentage (payment) can increase if your income increases that would be something to ask the attorney about or consider if your wife had a plan to go back to work at some point (if your kids are young) or if you may end up in a higher paying job as you had in the past.

Your credit score will drop: SO WHAT! Do you have the basic things you need? I know we value the credit score, but if we have our cars and our home is there anything else we really need the credit score for at the moment? NO! That's the conclusion I came to realize. We can go 5 yrs with a bad credit score and build it back up.

Bankruptcy is your second chance to make things better. It can be your Restart.

I will say it again to see a few attorneys. The first one also told us that we would not qualify for Chapter 13. After the fact and after coming here I think that he was really just going to try to get deals from the creditors to pay off at a lower rate while charging us by the hour as he called all the creditors and we had more than 10!

I didn't find this forum until after we had filed. I wish I would have found it sooner. It is a wealth of information.

You will be surprised how many people have gone through bankruptcy. There's a stigma and people do not talk about it. I have found out several people I know have gone through it. You are not as alone as you feel.

I wish you and your wife (and kids) the best.

[flashoflight]

Can you work two full-time jobs, upgrade back to a $110k job, or can the wife make $55k/year? That's what it will take to Dave Ramsey out of this situation. You can't pay down $80k with a beans and rice budget by itself unless you're single and are willing to share a room in an apartment or house. I already see some fat in your budget (reduce cell phone, replace cable with just two streaming channels) but I don't see enough places in your 4-person family budget to put a meaningful dent in your gambling debt given your current reduced after-tax income. You have a greater moral obligation to spend quality time with your kids vs. working two jobs to avoid screwing over your creditors. At age 40+, it gets real hard to do the 2 full time job or 3 part time job plan. Besides, declaring bankruptcy on big banks is just business anyway. They factor in default with the high interest rates so don't feel the least bit sorry about filing against American Distress. Dave Ramsey has some great ideas about the psychology of debt like never, ever financing a car ever again (with the rare exception of some chapter 13 filers), but his cookie cutter approach to paying it down relies on a ridiculous combination of both huge budget cuts and greatly increased income until the debt is paid off. You can start Dave Ramsey with baby step 3 after you shed all of your car debt and unsecured debt in the CH7 BK (BK is the smart way for you to do baby step 2).

Since you can't make the minimum payments, you're insolvent. Just quick math with your numbers makes it obvious you are broke. So now is a good time to talk to some bankruptcy attorneys. You picked a good time to figure this out, because many of us drained our retirement accounts in a futile effort to avoid bankruptcy when the math just doesn't work. It stinks that this is gambling debt, but at least you didn't drain your retirement account like some of us. So it all evens out. So go ahead and call a couple of good CH7 lawyers for a free consultation. Go into this with no guilt and jump on Dave Ramsey with baby step 3.

One last thing, when you decide to file BK (that might be today), it's time to halt all payments to the credit cards immediately and use that money for your attorney fees and household needs including deferred maintenance on your home or medical/dental. Don't wait around to do this. Make the decision and cancel all credit card autopays.

[shipo]

...but at least you didn't drain your retirement account like some of us...

LOL, thanks for the nudge; when my wife filed for Chapter 7 shortly after we separated, literally all of our 7-figure retirement fund, half of which was in 401Ks and the other half in stocks, had already been spent. After she filed, our remaining communal debt was piled upon the dept my former business partner had run up in my name, and so I ended up filing Chapter 13 a year later. Long story short, we were then in our late 50s with exactly $0.00 in retirement savings.

The good news is I changed careers and went to work for a company which has an unusually aggressive 10% 401K match, and in the last 7 years I've already managed to grow that fund to about a quarter of what I figure will be required to retire on. The plan now is to work for ten more years, during which time we (my wife and I "unseparated" a while back) will file for our Social Security when we turn 70, giving us effectively "quad-incomes" for a few years until we actually retire. We are both in good health, are athletic, and have ancestors on both sides of both of our families who've attained the lofty age of 100, so we figure we need to plan on funding our retirements for at least that long.

[lukesky]

CorkScrewit, I have also dealt with being in debt becuase of my own stupid mistakes over and over again. Since I was 18 and now I am 60. Guess what, it was not untill my last bankrupcty around 5 years ago that I grew up financially and got things under control. I found out that it was depression and taking on some of one of my parents addictive traits that help lead me to my financially downward jorney. I knew when I bought something at the time I bought it that it was wrong but something told me it would make me feel better, yes for a moment, then an hour later it was like what have I done? Anyway, your senireo sounds like the American delima. Buy untill it hurts, ignore it, then deal with it later. Well, it is later for you and you are dealing with it. I personally congrats you for being here and telling your story. This time next year, you whole life will be at a place where you can manage it, relax, hold that head up (you did not commit a crime other than being human), and on your way to being debt free again. This time, before you buy something ask your self, is it a Want are a Need first. You are not alone, and I am sure your family will be proud of you. God Bless.

[CorkScrewIt]

You are, by definition, insolvent. Whether you declare bankruptcy to cure that insolvency should be a business decision. You have a bunch of equity in your home, but at least you're in Florida. For Florida, if you had your home more than 3 years or so, you'd have no issues with exempting the equity in the home.

There's no moral dilemma in bankruptcy. It's entirely transactional and is a business decision. If the forms show that you can afford to pay something back to your (unsecured) creditors, then your creditors would receive something in a Chapter 13 bankruptcy.

The gambling has to stop. Bankruptcy will never cure gambling. I have incurred some debt through gambling, but I knew that a bankruptcy would never cure that feeling. A bankruptcy trustee will want to know that gambling is thoroughly out of your system.

I robbed my future (401k) trying to stay afloat and spent thousands on credit cards. In the end, it was all for naught and I ended up filing bankruptcy.

Welcome to BKForum. I'm sure others will tell you that you are not alone.

Good morning justbroke,

Thank you for your message.

As far as gambling goes, I have had zero desire to even look the way of a sportsbook. That has been my largest fault all of my life. Sadly, though, I have always been a fairly successful sports gambler in that I have found myself up way more than down. That said, my downs have always been the worst times of my life. I have kept very meticulous records as if it were a business. To date, I am actually up $33k but this doesn't take into account that I ended my gambling career (two years ago) in a $46k downward spiral (of which $7k of that did hit C.C.s due to a final "reach").

I have always had a very, very addictive personality. This is known to everybody that knows me well and, especially, myself. Oddly enough, I have shifted my "addiction" into something that seems so stupid to most people but to me it has been my therapy. Don't laugh but I am a super, super avid Pokemon Go player. It is free. It is fun. It is always changing. It is always fresh. Best of all, I have slowly been gaining national recognition and there might be an opportunity to monetize it down the road. Time will tell.

[CorkScrewIt]

CorkScrewIt, job #1, rid your life of gambling, period, full-stop, the end.

As for your current financial situation compared to many of us, you're worse off than some, better off than others. In my case, my income was a little over double yours, my debt was well over double yours, and my monthly expenses were more or less on par with yours. I had a very long credit history, upwards of 35 years when I filed for Chapter 13 in 2015, and yes, you are correct, bankruptcy is truly the nuclear option, and yes, my credit score dropped from the 800s to the 500s, and yes, it sucks to not be credit worthy for the first time in your adult life.

My Chapter 13 was discharged in March of this year, and I've managed to work my credit rating back up to the low 700s for two of the three major rating agencies (Experian, as is fairly typical, lags showing me in the low 600s). The good news is, there is life after bankruptcy, but in the meantime, it can be rough sledding. The best advice I can give is interview a number of lawyers, and pick the best.

Good morning to you shipo!

Thank you for your message.

Like you, I have had a fairly long, pristine credit history (but not quite as long). I am not looking forward to being labeled as "NOT Credit-Worthy" but I am at a point where this is a "given". I also am not one that has subscribed to "my credit score is king" mentality. Who knows? Maybe, soon, I will wish I had. Ultimately, my goal, is to revert to my old, old ways of being a cash-first, cash-always mentality. I am confident I can get there again.

Thank you for the advice. The biggest step for me is going to be making the first phone call to a lawyer. I am doing my best to get into the proper mindset.

[CorkScrewIt]

Do not delay Bankruptcy see an attorney soon, find someone experienced in your area. If you are not comfortable with them go to another to find the right fit. From what I have read the attorney can make a big difference if they know your court well and they are responsive to your needs/communicate well.

I say Do Not Delay because my husband and I put it off for so long because it was so emotional and yes there is pride involved. I think I know how you feel, like you really messed up and worse. Putting off the inevitable just makes it worse and the stress after BK is so much better/manageable than the stress beforehand. You are making $55 K and you debt alone is more than your income. And your home value is in my opinion high for your income (I understand you had a higher income when you purchased it). If you do the math IMHO it will turn out to be so difficult to get out of using a Dave Ramsey method and you might just end up in BK any way. Your credit cards are starting to go into collections, you can still ignore it. I ignored it for quite a LONG time. It takes a long time before they take you to court. Yes, my husband and I had been to court. We stalled the court process for a while (legally just dragging it out) until the attorney, the lady who owns the practice gave me the go to Jesus type talk.

I am going to send electronic messages and make a few follow-up phone calls to lawyers tomorrow. Thank you for your primary advice. Coming to this forum and reading has been my "come to Jesus" moment. Well... Scratch that. Looking at the red numbers on my spreadsheet(s) was my "come to Jesus" moment.

If you need counseling for gambling get it. I understand from reading other people's posts on this forum that is very difficult habit/addiction.

I have found a new therapy and a dumb one to most people. I posted it above in response to justbroke's message, Pokemon Go. It has been my saving grace.

Go to an attorney and see what they have to say and what your options are.

It really sucks to be in this position, but as they say, "it is what it is." A good attorney is not going to judge you. If they have been in business a long time they have seen it all. The first attorney we saw reminded me a used car salesman stereotype (no offense to anyone in that profession! We know a great used car salesman!). The next firm we went to was so great, professional, non judgemental "you made some mistakes, but you are fixing them now" that simple sentence felt so good to hear as well as the way we were treated.

I hope to have the same experience in the search for a lawyer. Well... On the second part. I wouldn't mind skipping the "used car salesman" piece.

Remember Pride comes before the Fall and once debt spirals out of control partly through our fault (admit you made mistakes) and partly through circumstance (it's not all your fault). In my experience I will say that BK is our saving grace. It is not fun, it is not easy. Most of us have ups and downs, most of us have said the stress is so much less after filing. BK is not for the weak, we have to preserve through the good, the bad and the ugly for 3-5 yrs in Chapter 13. In Chapter 13 you pay back a percentage of your debt. Our income is higher even though our credit card debit is more than our combined income. We are paying back 100% over 5 years. If you pay back a lower percentage there is a chance your percentage (payment) can increase if your income increases that would be something to ask the attorney about or consider if your wife had a plan to go back to work at some point (if your kids are young) or if you may end up in a higher paying job as you had in the past.

The pride factor is the toughest piece for me but what else can I do other than "eat it"? I don't see any other way. I hate the idea of screwing some of the creditors but I am beginning to think that letting them all go is my only route.

As for making more money, I have zero doubt that I will in the future. Unfortunately, with all of the uncertainty we are living in, this might take longer than I was anticipating but I am not down for the count. I can guarantee that!

Your credit score will drop: SO WHAT! Do you have the basic things you need? I know we value the credit score, but if we have our cars and our home is there anything else we really need the credit score for at the moment? NO! That's the conclusion I came to realize. We can go 5 yrs with a bad credit score and build it back up.

Hear, hear!

Bankruptcy is your second chance to make things better. It can be your Restart.

I need the "restart".

I will say it again to see a few attorneys. The first one also told us that we would not qualify for Chapter 13. After the fact and after coming here I think that he was really just going to try to get deals from the creditors to pay off at a lower rate while charging us by the hour as he called all the creditors and we had more than 10!

I didn't find this forum until after we had filed. I wish I would have found it sooner. It is a wealth of information.

You will be surprised how many people have gone through bankruptcy. There's a stigma and people do not talk about it. I have found out several people I know have gone through it. You are not as alone as you feel.

I wish you and your wife (and kids) the best.

I spent a few hours reading posts here. It allowed me to gain the courage to break the proverbial ice. It is, indeed, a wealth of information.

I also have a feeling that you are very right on the fact that there are people I know have gone through it as well. On that note, isn't this stuff reported to the public? I think it is, right?

[CorkScrewIt]

Can you work two full-time jobs, upgrade back to a $110k job, or can the wife make $55k/year? That's what it will take to Dave Ramsey out of this situation. You can't pay down $80k with a beans and rice budget by itself unless you're single and are willing to share a room in an apartment or house. I already see some fat in your budget (reduce cell phone, replace cable with just two streaming channels) but I don't see enough places in your 4-person family budget to put a meaningful dent in your gambling debt given your current reduced after-tax income. You have a greater moral obligation to spend quality time with your kids vs. working two jobs to avoid screwing over your creditors. At age 40+, it gets real hard to do the 2 full time job or 3 part time job plan. Besides, declaring bankruptcy on big banks is just business anyway. They factor in default with the high interest rates so don't feel the least bit sorry about filing against American Distress. Dave Ramsey has some great ideas about the psychology of debt like never, ever financing a car ever again (with the rare exception of some chapter 13 filers), but his cookie cutter approach to paying it down relies on a ridiculous combination of both huge budget cuts and greatly increased income until the debt is paid off. You can start Dave Ramsey with baby step 3 after you shed all of your car debt and unsecured debt in the CH7 BK (BK is the smart way for you to do baby step 2).

I will make more money. No doubts. In my current position I have high aspirations and I truly believe those will come to fruition. The main variable is time. I need time to get there. In the current state, time will drown me more and more.

You know, the irony in Dave Ramsey, I learned that he declared bankruptcy a few days ago. That blew my mind!

Since you can't make the minimum payments, you're insolvent. Just quick math with your numbers makes it obvious you are broke. So now is a good time to talk to some bankruptcy attorneys. You picked a good time to figure this out, because many of us drained our retirement accounts in a futile effort to avoid bankruptcy when the math just doesn't work. It stinks that this is gambling debt, but at least you didn't drain your retirement account like some of us. So it all evens out. So go ahead and call a couple of good CH7 lawyers for a free consultation. Go into this with no guilt and jump on Dave Ramsey with baby step 3.

So true! I was, literally, discussing cashing out two retirement accounts to take care of three of the bills but that would have left me with a, still, unmanageable scenario given the current state.

One last thing, when you decide to file BK (that might be today), it's time to halt all payments to the credit cards immediately and use that money for your attorney fees and household needs including deferred maintenance on your home or medical/dental. Don't wait around to do this. Make the decision and cancel all credit card autopays.

Man! This is the toughest part for me. I have been struggling whether I try to build up some money to throw at Discover and Chase to take them down to zero first. I also have an auto-payment for a consolidation loan that has my bank account information. I don't think there is a way for me to stop it. Well... Opening up a new bank account and moving money is the only way as far as I can tell. (This was my attempt to make things better before my credit score dropped like a rock. Sadly, failed!).

[justbroke]

Don't laugh but I am a super, super avid Pokemon Go player. It is free. It is fun. It is always changing. It is always fresh. Best of all, I have slowly been gaining national recognition and there might be an opportunity to monetize it down the road. Time will tell.

No laughter here. We have some 60+ year olds at work that play during lunch time. Supposedly there's a "gym" at our location. LOL

[shipo]

Man! This is the toughest part for me. I have been struggling whether I try to build up some money to throw at Discover and Chase to take them down to zero first. I also have an auto-payment for a consolidation loan that has my bank account information. I don't think there is a way for me to stop it. Well... Opening up a new bank account and moving money is the only way as far as I can tell. (This was my attempt to make things better before my credit score dropped like a rock. Sadly, failed!).

The sooner you stop paying on your unsecured debt, the sooner you'll have the money for your attorney. Said another way, keep current on your car(s) and mortgage(s), and stop paying everything else.

[CorkScrewIt]

CorkScrewit, I have also dealt with being in debt becuase of my own stupid mistakes over and over again. Since I was 18 and now I am 60. Guess what, it was not untill my last bankrupcty around 5 years ago that I grew up financially and got things under control. I found out that it was depression and taking on some of one of my parents addictive traits that help lead me to my financially downward journey.

I have been told that I might have had some bouts with depression. As for the "addictive traits", I 100% relate. In a big way.

I knew when I bought something at the time I bought it that it was wrong but something told me it would make me feel better, yes for a moment, then an hour later it was like what have I done? Anyway, your senireo sounds like the American delima. Buy untill it hurts, ignore it, then deal with it later. Well, it is later for you and you are dealing with it.

This might be me to a minor degree. Truthfully, I don't have much of anything to show for the debt(s). That said, most of it came from necessary spends. For instance, I had to fix the roof on my house. If not for my job being eliminated I would have had the cash to pay for it. That's right, cash. I would not have used credit. The only reason I did use credit was because I had no other choice. At that time, I literally thought "You'll be back to work making the same (or more) money so just do it." Unfortunately this mentality lead me to do a few more things that I, in hindsight, shouldn't have done due to my incorrect forecast.

I personally congrats you for being here and telling your story. This time next year, you whole life will be at a place where you can manage it, relax, hold that head up (you did not commit a crime other than being human), and on your way to being debt free again. This time, before you buy something ask your self, is it a Want are a Need first. You are not alone, and I am sure your family will be proud of you. God Bless.

I have, for the most part, evaluated the "want vs. need" parameters all of my life.

A lot of my debt has been created over the last two years when I was, truly, mentally breaking down. I got this crazy idea that my family would be better off without me living in the same house. Boy was I wrong! My irrationality lead me to renting an apartment close by. Of course, I didn't swing for a lower-end place. I, instead, found a luxury apartment that seemed to be a great fit for me. (There's a bit more to this story but I don't like talking about it. Maybe you can guess. Either way, my family is great and will only continue to get greater.)

If not for this foolishness, I wouldn't be here. I am 99.7% confident in this. It was such a messed up time of my life that I never, ever, ever want to return to.

Thank you for your message! I truly appreciate your help/input.

[CorkScrewIt]

No laughter here. We have some 60+ year olds at work that play during lunch time. Supposedly there's a "gym" at our location. LOL

I am very familiar with gyms. Unfortunately, more with the Pokemon Go type rather than the more commonly thought of one. That said, I am back into fitness and spending time in the literal gym as well.

If you are in Central Florida, it is very likely I know of that "gym" too.