How would a trustee really know... ???

[hackjob]

I am just posing the question, not advising anything, but I am curious... if items were paid for with cash -- say a watch (and it was never insured) -- how would the trustee know? Anyone for that matter.

I am not inquiring about ethics here. Just curious.
Thanks ahead of time for any responses.

[justbroke]

Ethics aside.

A nosy neighbor who wonders why you still have jet skis in the garage and a Rolex on your wrist... calls the Bankruptcy Court to report fraud.

Your family members, who wonder how you came out of Bankruptcy and still have that Cartier Watch, and all your jewelry. They are upset and so... the call the Bankruptcy Court to report fraud.

The (panel) Trustee thinks you're hiding something (because your income and a forensic look at your financial account shows money "missing"), and order a complete audit and appraisal of all your property.

Usually, it is because someone talked. Now, I can't just end my post without saying a little something about ethics. This is absolutely not worth lying about. At a minimum, you could have your case dismissed with prejudice meaning that you will never ever in your life be able to discharge any debt the was incurred prior to filing. Worse case, is criminal prosecution. Now, is that worth a Rolex?

[hackjob]

Ah, ethics, standards & why don't we toss in double-standards...

Appreciated and interesting comments. Hmmm... ethics... government/credit companies... come on!

I'll say this: If it looks like a cow, it's probably a cow. Right. Slap down all the junk, blend and slide through...

Btw... I don't own a Rolex... it's an Omega... Seriously, I agree. It is truly not worth it.
I am new to forum -- fantastic site -- just a question... I still believe they'd never know.

[hackjob]

Question for you JustBroke...

Per California Exemption System 2, if you're way under the 22,000+ wildcard, is it better to convert any cash to physical items (like a car), rather than exempting cash? I am just trying to plan ahead before I file... I read the Nolo book, but it seems like you can get pretty "creative" in California with your exemptions on System 2.

Thanks for any response.

[keptdigging]

Interested in reactions to the lastest question since I've been hoping my house stays underwater so I can use System 2 to primarily exempt... cash. For savings, non-spending, reserves, the thing I want to play a big role in my (hopefully) fresh start. Everyone says to spend down your cash... but that seems to be for cases that the cash can't be exempted.

[StartingOver08]

Interested in reactions to the lastest question since I've been hoping my house stays underwater so I can use System 2 to primarily exempt... cash. For savings, non-spending, reserves, the thing I want to play a big role in my (hopefully) fresh start. Everyone says to spend down your cash... but that seems to be for cases that the cash can't be exempted.

Exactly. Since exemptions vary wildly from state to state, you want to have as much cash as you can legally exempt. CA is very generous in their exemptions, so take advantage of it. You can truly get a fresh start if you have not only dumped your debt, but retained a decent amount of cash in your bank accounts from which to get a fresh start.

Fl has tiny exemptions except the homestead exemption. If you are upside down in your house, it does you no good to have a generous homestead exemption. Here you can do better by putting all the cash you can into your retirement accounts.

[hackjob]

Startingover...

I feel very lucky to be filing in CA, but I am still hesitate about listing too much cash... was thinking about just upgrading my vehicle from 3300 to about 11000 (used of course.)

[keptdigging]

I hear another wave of foreclosures is on the way... sad for those people, but happy for me. House under water means System 2 and $22K in cash (we'll I'll need a bit of that for car and such.) That plus some relatively meager retirement accounts but without the huge debts I've been juggling for a decade or so is truly a fresh start.

[hackjob]

Re: Keptdigging

Certain retirement accounts are exempt. My pension's exempt on System 2. Might give you more $ for cash or other things you may need it for... good luck.

I'm holding off on my BK until I more savings for lawyer and filings. "Judgment proof" right now -- oops, I guess I should say "collection proof."

[keptdigging]

Yeah, I think Chase is about to sue me... am working on becoming collection proof. (I've got cash advance sins that I really think need to age before I file.) I guess I'm living an interesting life.

[AngelinaCatHub]

I feel very lucky to be filing in CA, but I am still hesitate about listing too much cash... was thinking about just upgrading my vehicle from 3300 to about 11000 (used of course.)

I'm not preaching although I've been accused of being a preacher (not that good [or bad]), but the BEST policy is total honesty and INFORMATION.

We lost 10.5K in unnecessary lost money due to not dishonesty, but it could have looked that way. We were to ignorant of the ways and laws and paid preferential payments and had too much above means.

We got by because it was apparent we were honest but ill informed dorks that got into trouble due to illness and other stupid stuff.

Let me say this, there are no dumb Trustees. They have seen it all. For the most, they are kind and fair. You screw with the Federal Courts and they sense it, and you will see no greater wrath than having your wife meet your girlfriend. (forgive the levity, I could not resist.) 'Hub

[AngelinaCatHub]

I feel very lucky to be filing in CA, but I am still hesitate about listing too much cash... was thinking about just upgrading my vehicle from 3300 to about 11000 (used of course.)

Hackjob: I've got to further comment. I hope I am grossly wrong, but this statement is a bit insinuative that we here at bkforum.com help people go bankruptcy in some sort of constructive way.

We are not here to aid in working the system, and your comment suggests that you would falsify your paperwork.

We are here to aid those who are ill informed and in despair. None of us who have been through this agony ever wished it. None of us I've heard of have profited by bankruptcy except for the fact of learning better ways to live and a release into a new start.

You will NOT get advice on filling our forms that deceive the system or commit fraud. This is not what we are about. 'Hub

[bobbyquefour]

Seconded.

[justbroke]

I will would like to add this. The likelihood of getting caught may be low. So it the likelihood of committing a vast number of crimes, especially white collar crimes. If you actually want to do bankruptcy pre-planning and asset protection, then hire an attorney who understands the boundaries and will operate within them.

There are a variety of mechanisms for the Trustees to do forensic auditing of your bank accounts (deposits/withdrawals/charges/debits), tax returns, and statements filed. Remember, they've seen and heard probably everything under the sun when it comes to people wanting to keep things.

I mean, in the end, it's usually a Debtor who just wants to hold on to things, but wants the benefit of discharging, perhaps, $1,000,000 or more in debt. Yet, doesn't want to give up the $5,000 in cash they have stashed away somewhere. Sure there is abuse of the system everyday that doesn't get caught and goes unnoticed.

However, I agree that we as a collective Forum can't offer legal advice and certainly won't help someone game the system... even in the hypothetical. There are legitimate ways, in most cases, to protect assets. I can't go so far as to say, move money here, then buy this, then stuff the mattress with that. It's beyond the scope of what we do here.

See, no ethics even mentioned.

Per California Exemption System 2, if you're way under the 22,000+ wildcard, is it better to convert any cash to physical items (like a car), rather than exempting cash? I am just trying to plan ahead before I file... I read the Nolo book, but it seems like you can get pretty "creative" in California with your exemptions on System 2.

Are you thinking of doing this pro se?

[hackjob]

Re: JustBroke

I have not decided yet. All my creditors have "charged" me off, Citibank got a judgment through "sewer services" -- I found out about summons months after judgment through mail. Attorney advised me to not "quash" summons & de facto judgment as it wouldn't matter since I plan to file eventually and (presently) I am collection proof -- as I am self-employed and all assets under California exemption 2 -- no liens on my vehicle, etc.

Regarding AngeliaCatHub's comments: I stated earlier to Justbroke -- IT IS TRULY NOT WORTH IT! Regarding everything else she stated, I have no comment.

However, in California we have 2 exemption systems, we have the right to CHOOSE which system works best... What I am trying to understand since system 2, in my opinion is very generous, THE BEST way to PLAN your assets, within the framework of what is allowed.

Planning -- in my opinion -- is not deceptive, it's simply logic.