HELP! 1 year from filing and they're turning it into an ASSET case

[tobee43]

HHM, i stated this is my belief and it is in my opinion of what my expectations are when i have hired someone to represent me. and, while your position may be widely excepted it may not always be in the best interest of the clients with the way you have explained it. simply because it is largely accepted by the courts also does not make it "right". i think you know that. the professional ethic committees are usually made up of other atty's, as you most likely are aware, as well. it's almost like you are saying if you do the bare minimum for your client under what is accepted practices, that is fine. maybe it is, both legally and ethically, i just don't want an atty like that representing me or my interests, and that is my choice. not based on any fact other than what i have concluded what is; in fact, considered in, and for my "best" interest.

please do not imply that i'm stating attys are unethical, i am not. i'm just stating or dividing the good from the bad. i want the atty i can trust will watch my back and not always the clock.

ps....i had to add, are you also suggesting if you pay more than 2k it would effect the outcome of one's case? or the more you pay the better the atty?

[HHM]

Again, you are stating a belief and advising people to act on "your" opinion when your opinion has no basis in fact or how the profession works.

Now, if an attorney is negligent in communication, not responding, etc, that is one thing. But to tell someone that your attorney is there to represent you come hell or high water until the BK is closed is just not accurate and BAD advice.

Keep in mind, I am not telling people not to contact their attorneys after a case is filed, but I am warning them that it is very likely they will need to pay more or the attorney has correctly limited his representation and therefore may not receive much assistance.

Within certain bounds, yes, attorneys that charge more, tend to be better attorneys and offer better service. Here is how it works.

Below $1000, your generally dealing with a BK mill. I have to believe that most consumers realize what they are paying for here. There is nothing inherently wrong with mills, they fill a market need and they do help people, but they are the wrong place for most consumers since mills don't assist in a meaningful way with special issues.

$1000-$2000. The vast majority of chapter 7 cases are done in that range. There can be wide variance in service. Some attorneys provide great service in that price range (but are probably lousy business people because they are undercharging for the real value they bring). Most in that range are your typical BK attorneys. They do a little bit more than the mills, but typically limit their service as previously discussed. This is the range that I believe is the most potentially dangerous to consumers. Because many of the attorneys are charging $1500 but only doing the same work as a $699 mill. In this range, paying more may not actually get you more.

Over $2,000, you start dealing with "real" attorneys with real experience. Understand, BK is a hyper-competitive industry. If you charge over $2K, your client base is primarily referral based from past clients and other attorneys. As such, if that attorney did a poor job, they simply wouldn't last that long. As a result, yes, attorneys that charge more than $2K, even for relatively basic chapter 7's, are miles above those charging less than $2K.

Granted, this summary is a broad generalization of the BK market, accurate, but nonetheless a generalization.

[bcohen]

Yes, HHM, we all get the picture that if you "cheap out" with the attorney, you probably will get what you paid for. However, the fact remains that most people looking to file for bankruptcy--especially if they're planning to file Chapter 7--are poor, and simply do not have thousands of dollars to pay a high-priced attorney.

Furthermore, it would be crazy for someone to pay anything for an attorney, unless they have assets to protect which are worth at least as much as the attorney fees. If there are no significant assets which can be seized by the trustee (and I'm not talking things like your used clothes and old couch which no sane trustee would bother with) then you're probably better off to file yourself and skip the attorney.

[HHM]

Brochen...that is simply not the case. The really "poor" don't file BK because if you are too poor, you don't have access to traditional credit.

Most BK filers are employed and middle class and can afford an attorney. Keep in mind, BK is still a legal process. Most people, except the unemployed, really don't have time to educate themselves about bankruptcy. As such, that is why, nationally, the pro se cases are only about 10% of cases filed.

Sorry Brochen, but until you have helped over 2000 people (and innumerable people on this forum) with debt issues, I think your interpretation of the BK market is best kept to yourself.

[tobee43]

Again, you are stating a belief and advising people to act on "your" opinion when your opinion has no basis in fact or how the profession works.

Now, if an attorney is negligent in communication, not responding, etc, that is one thing. But to tell someone that your attorney is there to represent you come hell or high water until the BK is closed is just not accurate and BAD advice.

Keep in mind, I am not telling people not to contact their attorneys after a case is filed, but I am warning them that it is very likely they will need to pay more or the attorney has correctly limited his representation and therefore may not receive much assistance.

Within certain bounds, yes, attorneys that charge more, tend to be better attorneys and offer better service. Here is how it works.

Below $1000, your generally dealing with a BK mill. I have to believe that most consumers realize what they are paying for here. There is nothing inherently wrong with mills, they fill a market need and they do help people, but they are the wrong place for most consumers since mills don't assist in a meaningful way with special issues.

$1000-$2000. The vast majority of chapter 7 cases are done in that range. There can be wide variance in service. Some attorneys provide great service in that price range (but are probably lousy business people because they are undercharging for the real value they bring). Most in that range are your typical BK attorneys. They do a little bit more than the mills, but typically limit their service as previously discussed. This is the range that I believe is the most potentially dangerous to consumers. Because many of the attorneys are charging $1500 but only doing the same work as a $699 mill. In this range, paying more may not actually get you more.

Over $2,000, you start dealing with "real" attorneys with real experience. Understand, BK is a hyper-competitive industry. If you charge over $2K, your client base is primarily referral based from past clients and other attorneys. As such, if that attorney did a poor job, they simply wouldn't last that long. As a result, yes, attorneys that charge more than $2K, even for relatively basic chapter 7's, are miles above those charging less than $2K.

Granted, this summary is a broad generalization of the BK market, accurate, but nonetheless a generalization.

well HHM, i will say this; i will agree to disagree with your view point on this situation. i'm not giving any advise in respect to my belief on what others should or should not do, or to take the path i took. each to it's own. freedom of choice. although, through general experience many can come to a general understanding about how they think or feel about a situation. those experiences turn into realities and then do become facts of life for many. it is so wonderful that so many have had different experiences to share....isn't this what the forum is about?? each one sharing and we all learn when we listen to what others have gone through. everyone has value.

we all have opinions such as yours with respect to your comment suggesting a firm may probably have poor business skills for charging a certain amount, where as one cannot know for certain that other areas of the firm may pick up other revenues and they are still making money or maintaining their financial goals. there are not may "billable" hours with a bk generally. There can be wide variance in services.

Some attorneys provide great service in that price range (but are probably lousy business people because they are undercharging for the real value they bring).

i always rather enjoy our discussions, as i find them extremely simulating and informative.

[despritfreya]

i always rather enjoy our discussions, as i find them extremely simulating and informative.

Here, here, I do to. It is so nice to converse with and read posts from those who are well spoken (or written in this case). Something that, I dare say, is lacking in many day-to-day contacts with people. Keep it up.

Des.

[tobee43]

des, as always kind words. HHM always keeps me on my toes as odd as it sounds, i very much appreciate it. although i do wish he'd take a slip of that drink once in a while LOL!