Let's say you file for Chapter 7 and you get denied...what next?

[moe]

Here's what I've gathered from reading these threads: If you are above median income and you try to pass the means test you may get a letter that says 'presumption of abuse.

The trustee (who gets a portion of your payment to those you are indebted to, yes?) will try to find ways to see if you are cheating the system--by which they apparently mean you have over $100 disposable income a month to pay back those you are indebted to.

Apparently there are two trustees? One for assets and one for the means test or something like that?

So then...does it go to a judge? The judge says 'yes, you don't get to do Chapter 7 because you make too much money' or 'no you do get to do Chapter 7 because you truly passed the means test...'

Let's say the judge (?) decides you are an abusive filer (which has a cruel sound but I have to remember that legal reality and moral reality are not the same)...what then?

So in that case, you don't get to file Chapter 7 because the judge (trustee? who?) said forget it. Can you convert your case to a 13? Do you re-file as 13? Or you are just out of luck?

I feel like I'm misunderstanding things because when I talked to an attorney we were barely over the means test NOT INCLUDING TAXES. But taxes go into your means test! Let alone daycare, which was a huge chunk of my salary! So they were just like 'don't pass go, file chapter 13...'

This was after 2 years of unemployment (1 for me, 1 for husband) and 1 year of 1/2 time work for husband....But my husband got a job (that put us just over median...not including taxes)--and they told us to file chapter 13...

So I am not understanding something--why would they not risk putting us through for a 7? Our house was severely under water then and we had virtually no assets but some really old cars.

With income for the last 6 months we WERE under median but because of the new job, he said the court would not count it. But even with the new job, we should have passed the means test.

We could not file then because of a preferred payment to relatives and because I was afraid my husband would lose his new job.

I assume something really bad happens if you file for a 7 and get denied from this experience. But maybe I had a bad lawyer? He never really looked at everything--just our paystubs.

[frogger]

I assume something really bad happens if you file for a 7 and get denied from this experience. But maybe I had a bad lawyer? He never really looked at everything--just our paystubs.

You need to run just as hard as you can from that lawyer and do a little more shopping around. If you qualify for a chapter 7, there is no reason to be in a 13.

If you the trustee thinks that you don't qualify for a 7, they will push you into a 13.

They are not coming to eat you............. chill.

[moe]

Thanks, that is exactly what I wanted to know.

I should probably leave out all the stuff about the attorney because it is distracting.

The relevant question is: If I am considered to be 'an abusive filer' because I fail my means test upon further scrutiny can I file for Chapter 13? Since I can, I assume there is not terrible risk to me for attempting to file for a Chapter 7.

The attorney's bad information just kind of bums me out now that I understand things slightly better (I think--it is possible I understand them incorrectly).

[olivies]

Get a second, and a third opinion if you need to. We were originally told "don't qualify" and got pushed into a 13 with a $1800 payment we could not afford so naturally we let it dismiss. We got a second attorney, who got us our Ch7 discharge. It wasn't without work, but he got it done.

Yes, you can convert to a 13 if your 7 is found to be abusive. However, the POA and the nitpicking of your finances is not fun at all. It sounds like you're saying your attorney isn't including all your expenses in your means test. If you've provided them to him, and he's not using them and just looking at your paystubs, you really need to find another attorney. And make sure you can back up all your expenses- because even if you pass the means test, if you are over the median a US Trustee can scrutinize your case (that was my circumstance).

[IHateChase]

The above poster could write a book about the topic. She had to fight a long hard battle to get the 7 she deserved. Some attorneys don't want to do the work involved to get you into a 7, and some just prefer 13's as they can charge more for them. Keep talking to as many as it takes to find the right one!

[moe]

Yeah, definitely I realize now you have to look around big time!!!

I have to wait anyway because of this job that I had that I don't have right now. Without it, I scrape by on the means test. My life is complicated by various things so I can't file right now. But I have the knowledge I need to file.

In the meantime, I'm going to see if it really is possible to pay down the cards by hook or by crook. But I suspect it is not, given the budget I did which has me slightly in the red each month not even accounting for the usual things like home repairs or car repairs.

My tire blew today.

I'm going to look at Olivies posts to get a better sense of what happened but Olivie if you want to give me any advice, it would be most welcome!!!