Does my J look right

[stressedNC]

We already filed so none of this can change, but I am trying to prepare for the 341, since dh is the only one who filed I won't be able to speak and I am the one that handles the money. I want to make sure to discuss any questions that the trustee might ask. I hope you don't mind.

Family of 5

Gross 6413.00
- Insurance $1384(yes you read that right)
- HSA $124
- 401 $165
- taxes $645

Net $4095

Mortgage $910.81

Gas and Electric $255 -high summer bills bring the average up

Water & Sewage $105 -crazy high I know but our supplier sucks no option

Telephone $100(2 cell phones no landline)

Cable $78 -direct tv local cable is more than this

Internet $50

Food $850 -we spend more than this and we don't even buy meat

Clothing $225 -seems high but keeping three growing kids in shoes alone is $$

Laundry $30

Medical and Dental $300(child with health issues and 3500 deductable)

Tranportation $260 gas, oil, tires, ext one car

Recreation $50.00

Auto Insurance $83.00

Property tax $5.00

Student Loans 160.00

Credit card(my card I am not filing) $20

Personal Hygiene(soap, shampoo, feminine products, hair cuts) $100

School Expenses(my tuition and books kids supplies) $300

HOA Dues $30.00

Cleaning and paper products $50.00

Pet Care $50 (food 2x a month @ 19.99 and then yearly vet stuff averaged)

Work Uniforms $25 (when dh's scrubs come in contact with dirty blood they need to be replaced)

Kids(3) school ordered school uniforms $50.00
(Just what we order through the school, gym uniforms and their formal unifroms, the regular uniforms are included in the $225.00 clothing allowance. The lawyer suggested we seperate it this way)

City Storm Water Fee $3
$4095-$4089= +6(it was actually 5.49 but I rounded a little on here)

Lawyer noted housing expense to rise since we are surrendering our house and work hours would be reduced by 1/4 starting the week after filing due to cut backs.

[backtoschool]

You are right at the median for a family of five in NC so its close. NC doesn't use trustees, they use their own state officials, so I am not sure if all the little ins and outs of what will be allowed and not allowed with us trustees will be the same in NC.

Here are some quick observations:

1. Some trustees do not allow student loans as an expense and some do. Since NC is a rogue state, I have no idea if they will allow your student loans.

2. Does the direct TV include any premium channels?

3. Can you break out what insurance is included in that $1384 a month payment? Some life insurance policies over a certain amount are not exempt. If it is all health insurance you are fine.

Everything else looks fine. The key will be what the insurance payment covers and whether NC will allow student loan payments on your expense schedule.

[justbroke]

Wow, just under the median for N.C. family of 5 ($77,034/annually).

I can't tell which of your expenses are monthly or annually. If you're spending $300/month on "school supplies" this will be questioned... just as I am questioning it.

The Trustee will probably question the student loans... which will put you +$160 into the "abuse" range.

Believe it or not, the IRS allowance on Food is about $1,105/month for a family of 5. Your clothing expense is right around where it should be for a family of 5 as well (you didn't go over!).

Am I misreading or is your car owned outright? I don't see any expense for a loan/lease.

The lowest non-rent/non-mortgage expense I see for North Carolina is well above what you have for electricity and water. (The non-rent/non-mortgage expense is for utilities, and the lowest I saw was $460/month for the cheapest county in N.C.)

[stressedNC]

1. Some trustees do not allow student loans as an expense and some do. Since NC is a rogue state, I have no idea if they will allow your student loans. I am assuming these are ok here since the lawyer never said anything
2. Does the direct TV include any premium channels? No, I mean we have things like Nickolodeon but not HBO or anything

3. Can you break out what insurance is included in that $1384 a month payment? Some life insurance policies over a certain amount are not exempt. If it is all health insurance you are fine. It is mostly med and dental, med. alone is 571.00 a pay which comes out to $1237 a month(2"extra" pays a year) and our dental makes up most of the remainder then there is $12 worth of AD&D and Life. Even if the life and AD&D is not aloud that only puts us + 18.00 a month.

Everything else looks fine. The key will be what the insurance payment covers and whether NC will allow student loan payments on your expense schedule

Thanks, we had a couple big pay checks at the begining of the year that got us so close to the median and we used them to pay towards debt but since we are no longer paying the debt we obviously can't include it as an expense yet we have to include income we are no longer receiving. I understand it but at the same time it is frustrating that we really don't have that much coming anymore. For the past 4 months it's been around $3700 net but we have to account for $400 more than that. Don't get me wrong we are luckier than a lot of people and I am greatful for that, just frustrated about some of the little things

[stressedNC]

Thanks!

I can't tell which of your expenses are monthly or annually. If you're spending $300/month on "school supplies" this will be questioned... just as I am questioning it. They are all monthly the 300 includes my college tuition and books.The kids need a lot of supplies but not that many, the tuition is dirt cheap here.

The Trustee will probably question the student loans... which will put you +$160 into the "abuse" range. Why would these be considered abuse? What happens if you are in the abuse range?

Believe it or not, the IRS allowance on Food is about $1,105/month for a family of 5. Your clothing expense is right around where it should be for a family of 5 as well (you didn't go over!). Boy, when I was ordering school uniforms for all three it sure felt more expensive than the norm! We had 1000 down for food which is around what we normally spend but the paralegal questioned it so we changed it but then the lawyer thought $850 sounded low.....

Am I misreading or is your car owned outright? I don't see any expense for a loan/lease. Yes, we surrendered the one we owed on, we want a complete fresh start so we are making do with one car for now.

The lowest non-rent/non-mortgage expense I see for North Carolina is well above what you have for electricity and water. (The non-rent/non-mortgage expense is for utilities, and the lowest I saw was $460/month for the cheapest county in N.C.) We are from the north so we barely use the gas in the NC "winter" but we over use the air. We are in Charlotte(Mecklenburg County) definately not the cheapest county probably one of the highest.

[backtoschool]

1. Some trustees do not allow student loans as an expense and some do. Since NC is a rogue state, I have no idea if they will allow your student loans. I am assuming these are ok here since the lawyer never said anything
2. Does the direct TV include any premium channels? No, I mean we have things like Nickolodeon but not HBO or anything

3. Can you break out what insurance is included in that $1384 a month payment? Some life insurance policies over a certain amount are not exempt. If it is all health insurance you are fine. It is mostly med and dental, med. alone is 571.00 a pay which comes out to $1237 a month(2"extra" pays a year) and our dental makes up most of the remainder then there is $12 worth of AD&D and Life. Even if the life and AD&D is not aloud that only puts us + 18.00 a month.

Everything else looks fine. The key will be what the insurance payment covers and whether NC will allow student loan payments on your expense schedule

Thanks, we had a couple big pay checks at the begining of the year that got us so close to the median and we used them to pay towards debt but since we are no longer paying the debt we obviously can't include it as an expense yet we have to include income we are no longer receiving. I understand it but at the same time it is frustrating that we really don't have that much coming anymore. For the past 4 months it's been around $3700 net but we have to account for $400 more than that. Don't get me wrong we are luckier than a lot of people and I am greatful for that, just frustrated about some of the little things

It's counterintuitive, but many trustees will not allow student loan expenses on the expense schedule since the loans can go into forbearance during bankruptcy. It is really a dice toss as to whether this expense will be allowed.

The direct TV is fine.

"abuse" simply means that the trustee can find over $100 a month to put into a chapter 13 plan. Right now you have that available if the trustee squeezes you on the student loans and the school supplies. It is a close call.

[stressedNC]

The majority of the 300 is tuition and my books not the kid's school supplies and it is listed that way on the J that was filed. Do you think that will be an issue? Worse comes to worse we just end up with drawing and refile in a couple months since our income is way below what we had to claim. Our lawyer seemed to feel the drop in income would be in our favor when we had forgot to list a couple things and we were over by 300.

I really don't think we would qualify for a 13 if they tried to push us into one because his income has already dropped by several hundered dollars a month, his new hours started 8/4.
He had worked 30-32 hours a week and now will work 24. He makes double time for working part time so he actually makes more working 24 hrs than he would 40 hrs because of the schedule he pulls.

[backtoschool]

The majority of the 300 is tuition and my books not the kid's school supplies and it is listed that way on the J that was filed. Do you think that will be an issue? Worse comes to worse we just end up with drawing and refile in a couple months since our income is way below what we had to claim. Our lawyer seemed to feel the drop in income would be in our favor when we had forgot to list a couple things and we were over by 300.

I really don't think we would qualify for a 13 if they tried to push us into one because his income has already dropped by several hundered dollars a month, his new hours started 8/4.
He had worked 30-32 hours a week and now will work 24. He makes double time for working part time so he actually makes more working 24 hrs than he would 40 hrs because of the schedule he pulls.

I think that your husband's income going down will help if you are borderline. There are no luxuries in your budget, and even if the trustee could fund a chap 13 plan it would be such a small one that it is not worth the effort in my opinion.

How much unsecured cc debt are you trying to get discharged? Are you over 100k in cc debt?

[justbroke]

Worse comes to worse we just end up with drawing and refile in a couple months since our income is way below what we had to claim. Our lawyer seemed to feel the drop in income would be in our favor when we had forgot to list a couple things and we were over by 300.

Remember, it's not being over/under median that would drive the Trustee into steering you towards a Chapter 13. It is always your expenses relative to your income. The simple truth is that the bottom line number, known as the (monthly) disposable income, is what drives whether you'll get pushed into a Chapter 13 or dismissal.

Having a lower average income (current monthly income) would certainly make your expenses more effective in insuring that you are under the magic $108 (or $182) monthly figure.

I think your lawyer has done well. I was just wondering what the figures all meant, seeing them for the first time.

[jribe]

tuition and books for yourself is not typically allowed as an expese. Tuition/expenses for your children are.

You could use a student loan to continue to pay for your education; stafford loans are not credit based. Otherwise- the trustee will think you have an extra $300 a month to go towards a 13 payment.

The majority of the 300 is tuition and my books not the kid's school supplies and it is listed that way on the J that was filed. Do you think that will be an issue? Worse comes to worse we just end up with drawing and refile in a couple months since our income is way below what we had to claim. Our lawyer seemed to feel the drop in income would be in our favor when we had forgot to list a couple things and we were over by 300.

I really don't think we would qualify for a 13 if they tried to push us into one because his income has already dropped by several hundered dollars a month, his new hours started 8/4.
He had worked 30-32 hours a week and now will work 24. He makes double time for working part time so he actually makes more working 24 hrs than he would 40 hrs because of the schedule he pulls.

[stressedNC]

tuition and books for yourself is not typically allowed as an expese. Tuition/expenses for your children are.

You could use a student loan to continue to pay for your education; stafford loans are not credit based. Otherwise- the trustee will think you have an extra $300 a month to go towards a 13 payment.

My credit is wonderful I could get a loan even if it were dependent on credit however my school does not participate in student loan programs so that would not be an option. My husband is the one filing not me. I am hoping that since both lawyers went over our expenses my tuition is not an issue here. Lovely that they allow tabacco expenses but not tuition......

[stressedNC]

Remember, it's not being over/under median that would drive the Trustee into steering you towards a Chapter 13. It is always your expenses relative to your income. The simple truth is that the bottom line number, known as the (monthly) disposable income, is what drives whether you'll get pushed into a Chapter 13 or dismissal.

Having a lower average income (current monthly income) would certainly make your expenses more effective in insuring that you are under the magic $108 (or $182) monthly figure.

I think your lawyer has done well. I was just wondering what the figures all meant, seeing them for the first time.

Thank you, I appreciate the input! I hope it doesn't sound like I don't, I just like to ask questions to make sure I am fully understanding.

I know that the $ at the end of the month is what matters but obviously a cut in hours and thus pay would leave us with less. The thing is that we don't actually have the $4095 even before the pay cut, dh was able to pile on the hours in Feb. and March so that we could pay Hudson Keyse $500 a month to avoid a judegment(we also had a $490 car payment at that time) when the over time dried up the we had to stop both of those payments. So while the extra went to an extra expense the extra is gone but we still have to claim it the expense is gone so we can't claim it. It ends up looking like we have more than we do coming in. Our actual take home has been August $3433.00 July$3350.00, June $3102.00 back in Feb and March it was $4000.00 and $4500.00. Even if you add 300a month(the extra pay day that happens twice a year) on to our current numbers we are still bring in 500.00 less a month now than we have to claim and it will go down again since hours have been cut. Surely they would have to take all this into account if they pushed us into a 13 they can't expect us to make more than we are making. 13 isn't awful we just can't afford it and can't deal with the stress of it.
Thanks again!

[stressedNC]

How much unsecured cc debt are you trying to get discharged? Are you over 100k in cc debt?

No not even close we have 26k in cc a 3k loan(unsecured) and we surrendered our car so we have the difference of what they auctioned it for and what we owed which is now unsecured so our total unsecured is around 40k and then 123k is what we owe on our house.

[HHM]

Not much to add to what other have said.

That national standard for food for a houshold of 5 $1,014, so if you spend more than $850, then put it down. Operating costs for vehicles in your region, for 2 vehicles is $402, so you can probably pad your budget there as well (but keep in mind, operating cost includes car insurance).

As others have said, the student loan expense probably won't be allowed, as well as the school expense.

[stressedNC]

Not much to add to what other have said.

That national standard for food for a houshold of 5 $1,014, so if you spend more than $850, then put it down. Operating costs for vehicles in your region, for 2 vehicles is $402, so you can probably pad your budget there as well (but keep in mind, operating cost includes car insurance).

As others have said, the student loan expense probably won't be allowed, as well as the school expense.

We have already filed so we aren't changing anything now. We only have 1 car and there is no way we can operate it for 201 a month including insurance. We drive an absolute minimum of 300 miles a week(this is work, the kids school, and my school only not other things like groceries and dr appointments ext.) and insurance is 83.00 a month so even going by just that 300 miles 18 mpg 2.70 a gal multiplied by 26 then divided by 6 = 195.00 add in insurance at 83.00 =$278 not including maitenance, repairs, plates, inspections, ext. add in another couple hundred miles a month for regular driving there is just no way a car can be opperated on 201 a month.

So if the loans and school fees are not allowed are we completely screwed? Why would our seasoned lawyer have us use them or is this one of those varies by district/case things?
Thanks,