Need help with presumption of abuse

[rosco]

OK folks, I need some help. I've also posted this on creditboards and have had a few responses, but also wanted to see what you guys could come up with. Long story short - I didn't qualify for Ch. 7 but that's what really fit us best. I had 137000 in debt including a lot of medical bills. First atty referred me to another. New atty's paralegal really inflated my expenses to get me in a 7. She asked me about tithing and I told her that we had used to do that before it got too rough financially. She put it in there anyway and when I asked her about it she said that if they asked about it I would just tell them that it would be my regular tithe if I could've afforded it. I also have kids that attend a private Christian school, but it is paid for out of their SSI they get from their father passing away.

Had my 341 and UST shows up asking me lots of questions and several about the tithing. The trustee asked me if it would show that on my 2008 tax return and I said no. We have given to our church recently, but embarrassed by our financial situation, we've just put the money in the plate during the offering...nothing to really trace that.

This is the reason I feel that we TODAY got the notice on PACER that we are a presumption of abuse case from the UST.

Am I going to be able to fight this or not?

[music12]

ouch.

some people on this forum ended up with the UST withdrawing the presumption of abuse. i hope they respond to your post.

[liz417]

There was another poster here that was in the same situation, I hope she comes along. I guess it depends on the district/Trustee. Yes, you are able to tithe, but in order to claim it as an expense, you must be able to prove (via taxes) that you've done so in the past. What about previous tax returns, did it show?!?

[JRScott]

Well as a single guy with no dependents I never itemize because I simply can't get enough expenses to equal the standard deduction thus there is no tax record of my church offerings. However like many prior to bankruptcy for about a year I did not give as I should have. The moment after filing I resumed.

Now the UST filing could just be a precaution on his part. He has to do his report within 10 days and many of them will file the presumption to give themselves more time to study the case and then later withdraw. What you'll need to do is contact your lawyer and see what your options are. See what the specific objection the UST is making and see if you can defend it. Many here have successfully fought off the UST, I think a couple haven't.

Good Luck

[aces67]

You have to talk your lawyer and see exactly what the UST's objection is and then find out what your options are.

The UST filed a presumption on us but we were able to get him to withdraw. It did take about a month though. When the UST's files his presumption he will normally also file a motion to dismiss. This will come to you in the mail and it will state on it exactly what his concerns are. Then you will have to file your objection to that.

No matter what the UST says in the end if your attorney is willing your case can go before the judge and the judge can over rule the UST.

[StartingOver08]

The key to fighting the UST is documentation. So start putting together the documentation for all of your expenses. I realize you do not have documentation for the tithing, but is it possible that there are other expenses you might have missed? The goal is to show less than $167/mth in disposable income. Its even better if you have negative disposable income. If you post your expenses, we can help 'add' those expenses that all of us forget. For example, car registrations, tag renewals, (these little annual expenses are easy to forget when you are putting together your six month budget).

Review the entire schedule of expenses. Search here for expenses - there are several threads. Don't lose hope, but gather your documentation to fight to keep your Ch 7.

[Trixie007]

I'm sorry to hear about your problem. It kind of sounds like even you don't think you should be in a 7, so maybe it's no surprise to get this now. Did the UST question anything else besides the tithe? If not I guess it's a matter of how close you are to making it as a 7 - possibly if your number is high you might be allowed to keep a lower number for the giving and say that you put cash in the plate.

We also got questions from the UST, one of which was about our giving. We provided our 2008 tax return, the 2008 statement from the largest gift recipient, and an itemized list of our gifts this year (6 months) along with a letter stating that we've been giving for at least 12 years. If you're claiming a higher amount, I'm not sure the UST would lay down for less than full documentation.

Good luck to you, I hope your atty can help you fix things to stay in a 7.

[OhioFiler]

OK folks, I need some help. I've also posted this on creditboards and have had a few responses, but also wanted to see what you guys could come up with. Long story short - I didn't qualify for Ch. 7 but that's what really fit us best. I had 137000 in debt including a lot of medical bills. First atty referred me to another. New atty's paralegal really inflated my expenses to get me in a 7. She asked me about tithing and I told her that we had used to do that before it got too rough financially. She put it in there anyway and when I asked her about it she said that if they asked about it I would just tell them that it would be my regular tithe if I could've afforded it. I also have kids that attend a private Christian school, but it is paid for out of their SSI they get from their father passing away.

Had my 341 and UST shows up asking me lots of questions and several about the tithing. The trustee asked me if it would show that on my 2008 tax return and I said no. We have given to our church recently, but embarrassed by our financial situation, we've just put the money in the plate during the offering...nothing to really trace that.

This is the reason I feel that we TODAY got the notice on PACER that we are a presumption of abuse case from the UST.

Am I going to be able to fight this or not?

I think the UST agrees with you.

[rosco]

Talked to my church this morning. They do have a record of the cash I have given this whole year! Obviously the envelopes they send us are bar coded and the CASH counted! So I was so afraid that since I didn't write out a check there would be no way to track the money given. I haven't given a full tithe in a long time, but we have been giving about 60 per week all year and when we get commission checks we give more. We did write 2 checks this year in the amounts of 700 and 225 to the church as well. It looks like it will average up to around 400 per month to the church - and the paralegal put 500 per month on there. The financial secretary at our church is working on a printout for me. DOES THIS HELP ME!?

And if there is a mistake on my mortgage interest, what can that do? I did look at the documents and the schedule about the home office asks about mortgage interest. I put my 15600 under the indirect expense line, I did not put the 31000 number. I think the computer program used by H & R Block counted it twice, although I didn't enter it that way.

BTW - we did get a presumption of abuse from UST late yesterday afternoon on pacer.

[OhioFiler]

Your church is your friend!

[whipster1]

Frigging A that helps.

Get that to the UST quick-like. The 500 per month would have set off all kinds of alarms anyway, can't believe your attorney let you go in without documentation.

[JRScott]

Yes the church receipts will help you. In fact having that alone might shut up the UST. Still need to talk to your lawyer. Do what you can to look for other expenses that you might of forgot so that you can eat up a little more.

I think your allowed 15-20% of your income to go to charity like tithing.

[Trixie007]

That's awesome - not so much difference there and hopefully will make all the difference for you! *The limit is 15% of your gross income.

[liz417]

Yeah! So glad your church kept records