Fraud????

[oXo*GINA*oXo]

I need a question answered.

I just decided to file with an attoney yesterday. We qualify for Ch7, and that's great. But my attorney told me to wait three months before filing b/c anything that was charged in the last 3 months will automatically be presumed fraud. the problem is I have been living off of my cards due to the min. being so expensive.


I just don't see how me buying gas to get to work or getting some groceries so I don't starve would be looked at as fraud????

She said anything we charge in the three months before filing would not be dischargeable and I would have to pay it back. She also suggested I continue paying them. Well if I could pay them and not use them I probably wouldn't be filing.....Please help!

[AngelinaCatHub]

I need a question answered.

I just decided to file with an attoney yesterday. We qualify for Ch7, and that's great. But my attorney told me to wait three months before filing b/c anything that was charged in the last 3 months will automatically be presumed fraud. the problem is I have been living off of my cards due to the min. being so expensive.


I just don't see how me buying gas to get to work or getting some groceries so I don't starve would be looked at as fraud????

She said anything we charge in the three months before filing would not be dischargeable and I would have to pay it back. She also suggested I continue paying them. Well if I could pay them and not use them I probably wouldn't be filing.....Please help!

[justbroke]

You lawyer is partially correct.

If you charged things within 90 days, a presumption of abuse exists. However, if those charges were for living or medical expenses, that presumption is not there. (Unfortunately, doesn't stop the creditor from basically suing you within the Bankruptcy process for a determination that it was presumptive fraud. Best to just avoid the appearance.)

Of course, it is always safest to distance yourself from any card charges. I actually had card charges up to the day I filed (I didn't know these things).

Not one of the two credit card companies complained about that. I was making payments and even paid one of them post-petition.

In the end, the creditor has to actually file an Adversary Proceeding (lawsuit) within the Bankruptcy process to fight you over the charges as presumptive abuse/fraud. Many don't.

So, how much did you charge in the last 90 days?

[oXo*GINA*oXo]

So you think it would be ok to not pay some of them?

Should I only pay the ones I have charged stuff on recently? Would that at least show I tried to pay some of it back?

How long do they look back? Is it just the 3 months or could they bring stuff up from like 6 mons ago?

[Mi Bankruptcy]

How many attorneys have you visited. This is not entirely true based on what you described. I was in the same position. You should stop paying anything you do not intend to reaffirm. So, if you stop paying and using your cards right now, by the time you file or save money to file you will most likely have 3 months under your belt( unless you have all your attorney and filing fees in your bank). Also, they are looking for big ticket items. If you purchased Furniture, TV or some electronics in the past three months you may have to either return it or reaffirm the debt.

Another thought, even if you did have to pay back what you used in the last 3 months.. How much would it be?

[oXo*GINA*oXo]

So, how much did you charge in the last 90 days?

Probably like a couple thousand.....My min. are so high I have to charge everything else to pay them.

Seems stupid, b/c either I pay them and charge everything....Or I pay for things myself and they don't get paid. Either way they're getting screwed

[justbroke]

Probably like a couple thousand.....My min. are so high I have to charge everything else to pay them.

Seems stupid, b/c either I pay them and charge everything....Or I pay for things myself and they don't get paid. Either way they're getting screwed

You need to, today, stop using your credit cards and stop paying them.

With the money you're saving from paying the minimum payments, you should be able to survive. If you can't, then you have other issues (like paying too much rent/mortgage) with cash flow (like job loss or pay reduction).

Start getting ready to file Bankruptcy.

[oXo*GINA*oXo]

How many attorneys have you visited.

Also, they are looking for big ticket items. If you purchased Furniture, TV or some electronics in the past three months you may have to either return it or reaffirm the debt.

I have visited 2...The 1st was like just keep living how ever you have been....it's not fraud if it's not malicious....And this one wants to continue paying the CC and stop using them???


Oh and I bought a TV stand a couple months ago that won't be w/i the 90 days before filing....I spent 400$ on my discover.....Will the look back further if they see that? (it wasn't on purpose I wasn't even thinking of filing then)

[Tbornetun]

Stop using the cards immediately, make one more payment on each of the cards that you have used in the last 3 months, maybe not even a full payment. Pay NOTHING to the cards you haven't used. Does that give you enough to live on?

[oXo*GINA*oXo]

Stop using the cards immediately, make one more payment on each of the cards that you have used in the last 3 months, maybe not even a full payment. Pay NOTHING to the cards you haven't used. Does that give you enough to live on?

For sure....I make plenty of money it's just that all my min. are $100-$300.

Kinda adds up when you have like 10 of them, ya know?

[justbroke]

For sure....I make plenty of money it's just that all my min. are $100-$300.

Kinda adds up when you have like 10 of them, ya know?

I know exactly what you mean. I had 8 or 9 which were over $300/month alone. It adds up.

However, if you keep paying them, then you are just throwing your money away.

[Tbornetun]

So make one more minimum on all the ones you have used recently (within the last month) and file. If there are some that you haven't used for 2 months yet you have made a payment to them since then, don't pay them anything either.

Better yet, stop using, stop paying, and wait a couple months to file. Make the creditor prove abuse.

[oXo*GINA*oXo]

I know exactly what you mean. I had 8 or 9 which were over $300/month alone. It adds up.

However, if you keep paying them, then you are just throwing your money away.

Crazy how you don't realize how much trouble your getting yourself into, huh?

[oXo*GINA*oXo]

So make one more minimum on all the ones you have used recently (within the last month) and file. If there are some that you haven't used for 2 months yet you have made a payment to them since then, don't pay them anything either.

If I spent $400 on one of them a couple months ago....It will be like 5-6 months before filing....Will they make a fuss about it? (I didn't know I would be filing when I bought it????)

[PoorGrammyinBK7]

Probably like a couple thousand.....My min. are so high I have to charge everything else to pay them.

Seems stupid, b/c either I pay them and charge everything....Or I pay for things myself and they don't get paid. Either way they're getting screwed

If you are going to file BK, you should pay for things yourself and not pay the CC's.

Also, justbroke is right - there is a "presumption of abuse" for anything charged over the last 90 days to one card that adds up to over $600 - especially for "luxury items". So, though tecnically you could have a few small charges, its probably best just not to charge anything for 90 days before you file if you have the time to wait it out.

However, like justbroke, I had not planned to file and the need for it came up pretty suddenly, so I DID have a few charges on a couple of cards - even up to a week before I filed. But, these were small charges $20-$30 mostly - for gasoline, groceries, and medicine. They were not enough for the creditor to bother with suing over and I am sure that altogether, they were less than $600. There were no objections.