Death of Friend has me Questioning, Hating CH 13

[alorth]

I am just sick. My best friend died suddenly (we think of an unexpected heart attack) about 13 days ago. He was only 41. No indication of anything wrong. He had 2 kids, 14 and 11. He was debt free, luckily, except for his house, so even though his income was the family's major income, and his wife made significantly less, they should be OK.

But as this applies to me, I am pretty much going crazy. We are 7 months into our 5 year plan. Things are tight, and uncomfortable. I feel like I have less financial freedom than I had as a "starving" college student working part time delivering pizzas 20 years ago.

I HATE....HATE....that this 13 forces me to look 5 years into the future for salvation when, as my friend's death has so morbidly illustrated to me, we aren't guaranteed anything. Makes me want to throw up. I am completely miserable.

I so much want to just dismiss this damn thing and let whatever happens happen, but at least not be under the thumb of the government.

I find it laughable that people get to file CH 7 if they pass some arbitrary test, or have a lower income, and then they get to be said and done and on their way to rebuilding their lives in 6 months from start to finish. Yet if you make too much, you get screwed for 5 years. In a way, this almost seems unconstitutional in that people are not treated equally simply because of income. I mean, below median earners can still likely afford to send in $50 or whatever for 5 years, just as an example. But they don't have to worry about it. They're given a pass. Yet in our case, things are tight as hell, but there is no relief.

Yes. I'm *****ing and I'm negative, and I really don't give a F about what a supposed "great deal" CH13 is for debtors because they get to make interest free payments for 5 years and sometimes don't even have to pay anything to the unsecureds. Well, we do have to....along the lines of 63%. And in fact, maybe even more, and we have to take out a 401k loan as part of our confirmed plan to even finish the damn thing. There is no leniency.

Its all luck of the draw by district, trustee, and judge, as to how your case goes. Again, I point out that the inequality seems unconstitutional considering that BK is a FEDERAL statute.

I don't know how people do it. It seems you have to just luck out and have everything go your way to make it. That doesn't describe my case. Expenses and taxes have gone up, state fees are going up, food keeps going up, income is flat, its just BS. We don't do shit except sit around this house day in and day out.

I believe there is something about Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness in the Declaration of Independence. I understand if you commit a CRIME and go to prison that you may be deprived of those things, but we are not a country where debt is a CRIME, yet some of us in CH13 seem to be getting deprived of those unalienable rights. I would perfectly happy in a CH 7, and willing to take that so called "stigma". Its better than this "velvet" prison life.

Thats my rant and I'm sticking to it.

[ValleYum]

First, please know I am so sad for you and the loss of your best friend. 41 is too young to die.

Second, have you run numbers to see if dismissing your BK will allow you to pay off the creditors you need to? Your wife's income can/will be garnished (up to 25% if the state you live in is where I think I remember it is). Is 25% of her income less than your bk payment?

You seem so very unhappy in a Chapter 13 and as you just discovered so tragically; life is short. Perhaps you would be happier out of your Chapter 13 and taking charge of your finances yourself. It would at least negate your having to take that 401k loan to pay back part of your BK.

I have no words of wisdom for you, really, I just wanted you to know that I am terribly sorry - both about how your BK went and for the loss of your friend. I do hope that you can find peace whichever route you decide on. Please take care and keep us posted about your decision.

[pamkev]

I have no words to add to what Valle Yum said above as she said it well. I'm really sorry to hear about your friend.

Just don't do anything until you get your emotions under control and think about what it is your next step is.

[despritfreya]

My condolences on your loss. It is difficult when one passes way before their time.

I realize you have written your post during a time of deep sadness and some of what you have said, you have said through tear filled eyes but you do have to realize 1) things do get better 2) if you really want out of the 13 you can get out but, many folks survive through 13s with little regret in the end. It will all work out.

Just a few points. . .

The rules for filing a 7 vs a 13 as it relates to income are not much different than before October 17, 2005. Prior to BAPCPA the only test was Schedule I and J. If you made too much income and could not show a “reasonable” budget that put you in the negative each month you could not do a 7. Such is really no different from today and, in fact, some folks who would not qualify for a 7 before BAPCPA actually do qualify today and visa versa. It is all relative.

You believe the disparate treatment based upon income is unconstitutional. Unfortunately it is not since the amount of $$ one makes does not put one in a protected class, like “race, religion, national origin”. Your perceived inequality in treatment does not make the law unconstitutional. It only precludes certain people from taking advantage of a provision provided for by Congress based upon Congresses perception that those folks ran up debt (for whatever reason) and have the ability to pay something rather than nothing. The reality is, if John Q Public does not like the way the law is written, John Q Public needs to press Congress to change the law or vote “the bums” out of office.

Edt to add: Nor is the law "over broad, arbitrary or capricious" which, if it was, it might not pass the test of contsitutionality.

As to being deprived of “life liberty and the pursuit of happiness” even that stands the test of legality since one is only being "deprived" for 5 years. Unfortunately, 5 years to some is a lifetime if they pass on during that time but for the vast majority of folks it is a blink of the eye.

I know you are venting and you have my deepest sympathies and understanding. Just push forward, either inside or outside of the bk, and look for the light at the end of the tunnel. It does come and sometimes faster than you could have imagined.

Des.

[ld2366eh]

alorth, I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. And I've been following your posts and feel your pain. I do believe there is some truth to "the luck of the draw". Every district, judge and trustee seems to be so different and whoever you are assigned to, controls your life for a period of time. Is there any possiblility of getting your plan modified based on new expenses? You were already tight before the new year, I'm sure with the 2% increase in social security, that alone could send one over the edge. Have you spoken with your lawyer? I wish the best for you. Please keep us posted.

[TheBajan]

Alorth,

I too am so sorry for your loss. I almost feel guilty writing to you because I live in Michigan and I haven't had the trouble you have. I'm one of those who feel's like she did get lucky. Ours could have been so much worse than it was... at one point we thought we wouldn't even be able to afford to file at all. Your's is one of the more difficult 13's I've read about.

I do think it's very important to not make any decisions for a while to just give yourself time to separate your thoughts from your emotions. When the time comes, you and your wife should take a fresh look at your BK and decide if pushing through is best in the long run or if you have other options available. Just don't do it right now. Spend time dealing with this loss.

My thoughts and prayers are with you,
The Bajan

[Scott50]

First off- sorry for the loss of your friend.. I had simliar feeling at the start of my journey- I was orginally told that I would be able to file a CH7 but ended up having to file a CH13- wasn't sure how I get through five years- sixty payments of paying back 45%. Felt like my entire life would be "on hold" for five years. It caused a relationship with a great women to end cause I couldn't tell her about it and didn't want to drag her into my mess. Fast forward five years- mailed in my last payment last week. I think this experience made me a better/stronger person. You'll make it throught this journey...

[LadyInTheRed]

alroth, I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. I understand how such an unexpected loss can cause you to revaluate your own life. A healthy (so he thought) 32 year old who was very close to my family died unexpectedly a few days before Christmas from a yet to be determined cause. Such losses often do change our perspective on what's important.

Remember, filing Chap 13 and sticking with it was and still is your choice. After you have taken time to greive, you should reevaluate your situation. How will having your Chap 13 dismissed effect you now and in the future? Will it really make the next 5 years better? Are those five years more important than the next five years? After all, unless you are quite elderly, odds are you will survive the next 5 years. I think there is a lot to be said for living every day as if it's our last. But, I also think there needs to be some balance. After all, if we wake up tomorrow, as most of us will, we will have to live with the consequences of what we did or didn't do today.

[LadyInTheRed]

The rules for filing a 7 vs a 13 as it relates to income are not much different than before October 17, 2005. Prior to BAPCPA the only test was Schedule I and J. If you made too much income and could not show a “reasonable” budget that put you in the negative each month you could not do a 7. Such is really no different from today and, in fact, some folks who would not qualify for a 7 before BAPCPA actually do qualify today and visa versa. It is all relative.

Des, thank you for that explanation. I've wondered how much things really changed in 2005 as far as eligibility for Chap 7 is concerned, but have never taken the time to look into it.

[dmc-2008]

I am sorry you lost your close friend and so soon. No words! I am also sorry it is so tight! I just started out and feel if things dont chg too much that we will make it! We r watching every cent too. We r finding free things to do! Pls get out of the house!!! Go to museums, free some sundays, go to the library, go for a hike, etc! You gotta get out of your head! After you mourn your friend, pls take good care! You are ahead of me! We can do this!

[forgotten]

The rules for filing a 7 vs a 13 as it relates to income are not much different than before October 17, 2005.

Except now above median earners are forced in to 5 year plans instead of 3. That is an extra $24,000 the new law is costing me.

[sbatman]

"Un-bore" yourselves for little or nothing!

Don't wanna sound unsympathetic, but your posting just twanged the motherly response to the fact that you are unhappy "just sitting around". My Sweetie Pie and I are living just above the poverty line. My kids (4 boys), learned to never say "I'm bored", even when we were living on food stamps and Medicaid. If they did, I would find something to make them "Un-bored" (there are always toilets to be cleans, floors to be vacuumed or mopped, horizontal surfaces to be cleaned and/or dusted). My sons are all grown and now involuntarily, vociferously, have the same reaction to hearing the "I'm bored" from friends or colleagues (even if they can't say it). Boredom is a sign of inadequate creativity. My family all had and still do enjoy a fine time without having to spend much at all. In fact, Sweetie Pie and I are having the time of our lives now, in spite of no money. You just have to re-frame your "boredom" and take advantage of all the free, wonderful things in life:

Picnics (if you want fancy, go to a gourmet grocery store and buy inexpensive items that you can't make at home and bring with something nice to drink). If it is too cold, bring it into the food court at the mall. No one is paying any attention if you bring your food in. Just in case, put it in one of those ubiquitous plastic bags.

Free Internet at libraries

Free books and DVDs, CDs, ebooks at any library

Community centers often have low price or discount activities. They also have lessons for all kinds of activities, often free or very cheap. If you're over 50, the better, as more activities are usually offered. Our "poor", local one offers yoga, exercise classes, ceramics, guitar lessons and on and on. And, if you go to the community centers in the "poorer" sections of town, many of the activities are subsidized. You don't have to be poor to partake, you just may have to drive an extra mile or two.

Walk, mall walk-if cold-just don't buy!

Hiking

Bicycling (if you don't have one, you can often get a free or cheap one on freecycle or craigslist)

Camping (if you have no camping gear-the same as above. I wouldn't use a previously used sleeping bag, but Walmart has them dirt cheap, along with pads. A one time purchase). If money is an issue with buying new, just get a used one and clean according to instructions. Or, you can just use a lot of blankets if you can't afford a sleeping bag. Been there and still do that when sleeping in our car when camping (My beat up Element fits a full size sleeping pad, sheets, blankets and pillows from home, so our old bones don't have to sleep on the ground).

Don't flame me, but if you like to go shooting, borrow an unused .22 from a friend or relative and use at the local outdoor range (ours is $3 per person, here in Arizona). .22 ammo is dirt cheap and you can spend all afternoon, slowly practicing. What I usually end up doing, though, is spending at least 1/2 of my time talking to the old timers and experts who are more that welcome to give you pointers and often the opportunity to use their (many times quite expensive) weapons just for fun. The rangemasters have never had a "hurry up" attitude. I know this isn't possible for some because of their gun control views. But, you might get a different slant on the matter just by checking it out. If you've never shot before, you will be shocked with the professionalism and strict rules. We're not a bunch of "Yahoos" and we're not is some kind of "Cult" as some have termed recreational shooters. The range will also rent you ear protection and can sell you a pair of (reusable) safety glasses for a couple of dollars.

Board games, card games during any leisure time. How much does a deck of cards cost? You always wanted to learn to play Texas hold 'em or Hearts, Mah jong, no? How about bridge? You can go to free bridge lessons and games, Mahjong at clubs, churches, temples, community centers.

Church/religious activities. Even if there are fees, swallow your pride and ask about free or discounts. If they were to say no, than it would not be a religious organization that I would want to participate in.

Potlucks with neighbors and friends.

Hanging out in your own backyard, patio, wherever, with cup of tea, glass of wine and have quiet music, conversation with your loved ones or friends.

Write your memoirs.

Get the pictures that have been sitting around in boxes in your house for 20 years and put them in your empty photo albums you bought years ago when you heart had full intentions of doing that. And never got around to it.

Go to parks and watch children play (young children have not a care about living without any thoughts of money)

Get rid of your TV so you don't watch the cues that you need "stuff" to make you happy.

Instead, for $8 a month, buy Netflix streaming or DVDs by mail and watch movies and shows without the advertisements for the cues that you need "stuff" to make you happy.

Do you have an old piano or musical instrument in your house? Learn how to play it. You can find books at the library, cheap online and Youtube is great for tons of instructions.

Sex is free, if you can have it. Or just cuddling under blankets and talk about anything (we've been together for 17 years and still never have had any loss of interesting conversation). And it can take up hours in the time that you are just "sitting around". Make your private little picnic and bring it into your bedroom when you need a break. You may be amazed how much your relationship can grow. You'll also save on heat that way.

Free talks and activities that are advertised in the newspaper (which you can read for free at the library) or one of those free community papers that are usually in racks around town.

Tackle that junk drawer, the garage or the closets that you've been ignoring for years.

Draw, or you can buy a cheap watercolor set at Walmart, or if you have a couple dollars more, Michaels. You can get instructional books at the library (or Youtube, once again). Watercolor paint lasts forever and can be as complex as you want without costing more (i.e., very time-consuming while you're "sitting around")

If you can find a cheap inflatable boat (store, freecycle, craigslist), paddle around a local lake. It's a blast and you can usually get some wildlife viewing too.

Get an el cheapo bird-feeder and seed. Put in yard/patio/balcony where you can sit and birdwatch. If you get a variety, get a bird book from the library if you can't find one at the used book store.

Volunteer at the homeless shelter, the Humane Society. Help an elderly person once a week who needs help with just the little things, even if it is to help deal with correspondence, going to the grocery or balancing a checkbook. The need for help abounds in every community. Trust me, you will feel rich.

The list is unending.

Condolences on losing your friend and that your Chapter 13 leaves very little money for recreation. But, there is no reason why you can't "un-bore" yourself. Take this wake-up call as a message to fulfill your life during this difficult time-and for always. All my best!

[HHM]

alroth

You are suffering what many chapter 13 debtors suffer, history amnesia. We ALL, naturally, tend to remember that things were better or "not as bad" as they really were. 2 or 3 years into the plan, you are frustrated by the monthly payment...but you really have to sit back and honestly answer, what was the alternative to dealing with the debt? For those in chapter 13, if they are really honest with themselves will remember that there really wasn't an alternative.

Des is spot on, there really isn't much difference between those filing chapter 7 and 13 now, as there was pre 2005. The only difference, which does suck is the required commitment period went for 3 to 5 years, but as for "qualifying" or being "forced" into a chapter 13 vs a 7, it really hasn't changed all that much.

The goal is to be debt free, those in chapter 13 could not have achieved that in 5 years or less without chapter 13.

[dmc-2008]

Bat, you rock! That is a great list!

[despritfreya]

Except now above median earners are forced in to 5 year plans instead of 3. That is an extra $24,000 the new law is costing me.

Yes, very true.

Des.