What happens if you don't pay in a chapter 13?

[jcj112562]

Just a thought, but there wil not be a judge at the 341...there will be a trustee/lawyer, some reasonably standard questions under oath. You will, however, find out any huge objections that the trustee has to the Plan, or to your income level for a Ch7.

John

[mom2crazies]

Ok. Thanks John. I was trying to find out from my attorney, but he hasn't responded (although, I think I emailed him Friday night, so it was over the weekend). I am then assuming that if the trustee has major objections that cannot be worked out, then there would be an additional court date with the judge before the judge dismissed the case, or converted it?

[lrprn]

...if the trustee has major objections that cannot be worked out, then there would be an additional court date with the judge before the judge dismissed the case, or converted it?

This is true. I know because this happened to us when our lawyer and trustee could not reach agreement about two trustee objections to our plan. However, you seem to be thinking that this meeting with the judge is like a criminal trial in a courtroom when it's not like that.

If your lawyer and trustee cannot reach a compromise, then your laywer files a brief describing your legal position including prior legal precedents and the trustee files a brief describing his legal position as well. The judge then reviews the briefs before the meeting.

The get-together itself with the judge is more likely to be held in a courthouse meeting room or in the judge's chambers than the courtroom (ours was held in a meeting room). Your lawyer represents you and your legal interests - you aren't invited to say anything. I think my husband and I were sworn in and after that said about ten words through the entire meeting. Not a single question was asked of us - it was our lawyer and our trustee each representing their own viewpoints that did all the talking.

Also the judge doesn't give a ruling right then. Instead months can go by before you find out what the judge decides to rule. (In our case, one objection went our way and the other went the trustee's way.)

I hope this helps you understand what typically happens if the trustee and your lawyer can't reach a compromise. Perry Mason it isn't

[CAPPUCCINO1]

Not sure if this will help, but feel that the question of exempt income is at issue when calculating a repayment plan. Most of our roughly 8,000 monthly income is technically "exempt", as it is my husbands Disability income, e,g, SSDI, Veterans Disability, & government Retirement Disability. Only about $1200 is my own "earned" income from regular employment. The trustee asked our attorney how we planned to pay our $5000 per month payment. Since they can't garnish anything but $1200, they just asked us to send a monthly cashier's check. The income really isn't exempt from the b/k judge, just exempt from garnishment. All of it is used to calculate "disposable income".

[mom2crazies]

Yeah, that's what I have gathered. I wouldn't be so pissed about it, if the law were freakin' clear.

What I did do (when up at 2 in the morning) is come up with several payment plans. They all still show that the SSDI income would be included in the calculation (as in I claimed responsibility for my costs, claimed that only 1/2 the childrens costs were from the disability and came up with my plan based on the exemptions offered for a two person household (Husband plus 1/2 the childrens costs). I think it's a good compromise. The payment is based of my husbands income, but it allows the court to see that we are acknowledging that because of the SSDI, his salary isn't responsible for all of the household costs. I came up with a few more, but this is the best one that I thought the court would allow. I'm going to talk about it with our attorney tomorrow - which is kind of silly since the chapter 7 has not even been thrown out yet. Only the basic paperwork has been filed. Our schedules have not been filed, yet) and yes, I realize this is the attorney's job, but I feel like I need to have some input in our future.

[lorelei]

Mom2, I don't know if what I'm going to say is going to help at all, but something about the way you write and what you say is reminding me so much of myself. So I thought maybe you could relate to where I'm coming from.

I've known that bankruptcy will be inevitable for more than half a year now. At first, I thought I would have to file RIGHT NOW but I soon realized that not only *could* I put off filing, but I would be *better off* delaying it and getting my ducks in a row.

That's all well and good, but all that extra time is dangerous for someone like me who is a professional worrier. I don't think there's not an angle of this I haven't obsessed over at one point or another: Is my household size one or two? If it's two but we're not legally "family" does that mean I can't count her expenses on Schedule J? Does imputed income count or doesn't it? 7 or 13? Coffee or Tea? Tomayto, tomahto. And on and on and on until I've spent god knows how many hours researching all minutia in great detail, bringing in printed off copies of local bankruptcy judge rulings to quiz my attorney over why he said what he said in light of the ruling.

OMG. Enough!

What I'm trying to do when I do that - and maybe what you're trying to do - is to get as much control as I can over a situation that is largely out of my hands at this point. I can't control whether the court decides my household size is one or two, or whether ultimately my income allows me to go 7 or 13. I wish so much I could control that, but I can't.

What can I do? Make sure I have the best legal representation possible. Understand the basics of bankruptcy so that I maximize my protections under bankruptcy law. Take care of myself. And by that I mean get enough sleep, make sure I'm checking in with my doctor to make sure my health is good, be gentle with myself, have good friends and understanding family around me.

Knowledge IS power. Don't get me wrong. And it's always better to be informed than ignorant. But to an extent, our power is limited. And I have to find some way to make peace with that.

Like I said, I might have misread you totally, and if so you can just forget what I've just said. But if you are like me after all, then :hug: I know what you're going through.

[mom2crazies]

You read me right! I have had to start taking my Xanax again more than usual (I HATE that!). There are definitely three things about me that I cannot deny. 1. I HATE not having all of the answers 2. I am a total control freak 3. I obsess, obsess, obsess over every little detail.

Why can't I have the "care free" manic episode right now? One of those would be swell! (j/k)

[lorelei]

Hey, whaddaya know? I've been given a prescription for Xanax since this began for me, too! I might not have answers for you, but I can tell you you're not alone

... and all this doesn't mean I've stopped worrying or obsessing either. I'm just trying to come to terms with the difference between what I can do and what I can't.

[BKAttyMI]

Mom2crazies - all of your posts just point more and more to the fact that your attorney should be walking you through this step by step. If they aren't, you may need to ask for a refund and get a new attorney that is experienced in chapter 13 matters (not all attorneys do chapter 13s). Your hypotheticals, while they make sense in your head and possibly in forum posts, would be laughed out of court. Seek advice of experienced counsel in this and stop fretting over it, I would never allow my clients to worry so much on this without giving them an estimated chapter 13 payment if it came to that.

[mom2crazies]

We met yesterday and he really thinks the 7 is something that we can get. We have a negative income according to all of our expenses and exemptions on the schedule. I found out that our trustee for the chapter 7 WOULD be there. I guess he likes to torture debtors as much as possible.

The 13 will happen only if he files a motion that it the 7 was in bad faith, so I was just blindly asking questions to help possibly prepare me. They might seem laughable, but I have nothing to lose by asking questions - no matter how silly they seem. I find it hard to believe that you never asked questions that seemed completely asinine to your lawschool professors. I've never been through bankruptcy so my questions might seem dumb to you, but I'm someone that had an almost 800 credit rating, and never paid a bill late in my 15 years of credit history, nor my husband in is over 23 years of credit history - until we mistakenly believed that by filing a hardship package because of a drop in income would be approved and not lead to a foreclosure and lawsuit. Asking questons does not mean that I am stupid, it means that I am curious and processing information AND thinking of ANY and ALL possible options available to me.

Anyway, We did talk through a lot of my questions and we are concentrating on the 7 until we know different. I don't know if he would even be able to get me an estimate of a chapter 13 payment with all of the complications on the SS being involved. Plus, we have an argument for every single expense that is over the IRS exemption amount. He could pick apart everything, but it would take him a while and we would just keep handing him the documentation supporting our position. Also, keep in mind that I am in UT a "creditor friendly" state that is completely backwards and does not follow any logic when it comes to any laws regarding bankruptcy or anything else.

He's not "allowing" me to worry so much. I have a mental illness along with severe anxiety. Just because he isn't you, doesn't mean that he isn't a good attorney. I hope you are a little nicer and less condescending to your clients, instead of telling them they would be "laughed out of court".

[shark66]

We met yesterday and he really thinks the 7 is something that we can get. We have a negative income according to all of our expenses and exemptions on the schedule. I found out that our trustee for the chapter 7 WOULD be there. I guess he likes to torture debtors as much as possible.

Don't take it personally. Unlike Ch. 13 Trustees, their Ch. 7 colleagues get paid c--p, so I'm certain that some of them enjoy the whole thing in a somewhat perverse (not to be taken in the sexual context) manner. If you have a valid case, his/hers presence will make no difference.


Asking questons does not mean that I am stupid, it means that I am curious and processing information AND thinking of ANY and ALL possible options available to me.

Anyway, We did talk through a lot of my questions and we are concentrating on the 7 until we know different.

Which is exactly what you should be doing. Kudos to you for staying on the path in spite of all the distractions.

Good luck.

[mom2crazies]

He definitely has more incentive to let us keep the 7: He would get a percentage of our tax return, possibly our $1400 rent deposit, and our vehicle.