Paralegal said NO Christmas Shopping

[free2breathe]

I think many posts on this forum contain such emotional ammunition. It's really easy to go on the defensive when you're going through such a roller coaster ride such as bankruptcy is. I've read this post and started to respond and backed away several times. I can see the point from both sides of the fence.

Melody, I truly believe people have your best interest at heart in pointing out that your mindset is still in the early stages following the decision to file. I also believe that you are very passionate about your children and what you see as their "needs". I can totally relate to that. I have grown children and I also have a four year old. The thought of her waking up to nothing under the tree would be hard to take, but my older children tell me even now that gifts weren't what they remember about the holidays.

However, there are good bits of advice from various posters here. This is the first year you've had to deal with this budget. The advice from the paralegal was "NO Christmas shopping." She also has your best interest at heart. She knows what the trustee will take exception to. I think there is a happy medium in here somewhere. You know you need to learn to budget, save for presents, etc. I would wager that next Christmas won't be nearly as stressful, since you will be prepared. So, for this year, I'd hang on the side of being frugal, knowing that things WILL start to look up. Graciously accept the help of your family in providing for your children, it's a blessing they WANT to share. It's the whole "fresh start" idea. Get your children that one or two important, affordable gifts. Start saving for next year, whether it be a budgeted savings account, money in a jar, or whatever works for you.

I guess what I'm hoping to say here is that we need to be gentle, honest and fair to each other. We are all in the same boat having either been through it, going through it, or getting ready to go through it. We need to remember that everyone isn't attacking us personally with their advice...they are telling a story, how they've handled things, how they've made their situation better. And we need to take all the posts with a grain of salt. There isn't a right and wrong, there is just a community of people who have experiences to share. And with that, I wish you all a very Merry Christmas, a bit early ;)

[Freddy03]

I think many posts on this forum contain such emotional ammunition. It's really easy to go on the defensive when you're going through such a roller coaster ride such as bankruptcy is. I've read this post and started to respond and backed away several times. I can see the point from both sides of the fence.

Melody, I truly believe people have your best interest at heart in pointing out that your mindset is still in the early stages following the decision to file. I also believe that you are very passionate about your children and what you see as their "needs". I can totally relate to that. I have grown children and I also have a four year old. The thought of her waking up to nothing under the tree would be hard to take, but my older children tell me even now that gifts weren't what they remember about the holidays.

However, there are good bits of advice from various posters here. This is the first year you've had to deal with this budget. The advice from the paralegal was "NO Christmas shopping." She also has your best interest at heart. She knows what the trustee will take exception to. I think there is a happy medium in here somewhere. You know you need to learn to budget, save for presents, etc. I would wager that next Christmas won't be nearly as stressful, since you will be prepared. So, for this year, I'd hang on the side of being frugal, knowing that things WILL start to look up. Graciously accept the help of your family in providing for your children, it's a blessing they WANT to share. It's the whole "fresh start" idea. Get your children that one or two important, affordable gifts. Start saving for next year, whether it be a budgeted savings account, money in a jar, or whatever works for you.

I guess what I'm hoping to say here is that we need to be gentle, honest and fair to each other. We are all in the same boat having either been through it, going through it, or getting ready to go through it. We need to remember that everyone isn't attacking us personally with their advice...they are telling a story, how they've handled things, how they've made their situation better. And we need to take all the posts with a grain of salt. There isn't a right and wrong, there is just a community of people who have experiences to share. And with that, I wish you all a very Merry Christmas, a bit early ;)

Well said

[MelodyAM75]

I appreciate your advice and concerns and didn't mean to come off sounding mean in my last post. My choice of words early on was probably not wise...I am a rational person who knows I don't "need" to spend money on toys so I should have more carefully chosen my words to say that I "want" to get my kids some toys. I plan to save over the next few weeks and comparison shop to get the best deals on those items I "want" to include on their Christmas list. Similarly, I "want" but do not need a pedicure or other personal luxuries so I understand the difference between wants and needs. I might get something like a pedicure once a year and only when given as a gift. I "want" to go out to eat sometimes, but don't "need" to...haven't been out to eat since my in-laws took me out to a restaurant for my birthday in September. My son's best friend just got back from his annual Disney World trip and I "want" to be able to take a vacation, but I know the reality is that there will be no Disney trips for at least 5 years (by the way, I have never been to Disney or anything like that so I haven't blown any money on such things.)

Anyway, I know that we will have to live more frugally to get through this difficult time, but at the same time I hope to get some relief from $500 student loan payments, excessive medical bills and other expenses. All in all my credit card debt is not very large - just about $4000 I think...so credit cards are not are biggest expense and we haven't even used our credit cards for several months and they have all been destroyed. We are not flat broke, but just barely making it month to month and just in the last month got behind on bills 30 days for the first time in the past 10 years or so. We are mainly doing a Chapter 13 to avoid any threats of foreclosure or repossessions; however, we have not received any notifications of pending foreclosure since we have only recently fell behind. We also feel like we owe so many bills that we will never pay them off and feel like Chapter 13 will help us to pay off bills more efficiently so that we can live life debt free, except for house payment and car payments.

You must recall that in my previous posting that I stated there was nothing wrong with getting Christmas presents...Saving $50 per month for that purpose is also not bad if you can do it as we did that amount or more by just saving our change each day in a big jar and not touching it. We always had money for the unexpected baby shower gift, wedding gift, etc. and kept our Xmas budget to a minimum. It worked, everyone stayed happy and the sun came up each day. What hit me the most about your initial posting is what I initially said - what worried me was your use of the words "need to." Putting food on the table and gas in the car is a necessity - a gift is not a necessity. The issue here is not the gift but your mindset which will change as time goes on and you settle into getting used to work with your finances and a Chapter 13 Plan. We all go through this in some way and all handle it differently. Note that you need to change your mindset to successfully get through this bankruptcy. I believe that is what most of the folks responding to you are trying to say.

[ShooFly]

I would like to respectfully ask that this thread by closed. No one here will be able to convince me that skipping Christmas or birthdays is the right thing to do. I will sacrfice other things. I will be switching cell phone companies soon to reduce my bill more than $100 and make other sacrifices as needed. While I was in college, I worked for The Salvation Army and each year 100's of parents came flooding in to apply for Christmas assistance for their kids because they did not have extra income to do so. I had the pleasure of passing out those gifts to the parents who could not afford to provide gifts for their children. Each child probably received $100 dollars are more in gifts - some more depending on the individuals who adopted their names off the angel tree. Christmas should be a magical time for children not a scene out of a Scrooge movie.

No is trying to convince you... but we agree with your trustee that $600 for kids gifts is going overboard, which is how you ended up here in the first place. If you're not going to change much, then why even file 13? Just move to an apartment and carry on. When the money and the credit runs out, you'll get it.

[Nanzee]

I got my kids Christmas presents last year (we filed in 11/09) and I will this year. Birthday presents too. I don't know if we were just lucky enough to get an attorney who made this possible for us, but he never said we would have to stop doing these things. We went away on vacation this summer too - in my case we were spending so much on "minimum monthly credit card payments, and the 2nd mortgage which was stripped, I am actually able to now pay my bills on time, and save. I think the last response was unnecessarily harsh, and I don't see the reason why. I thought we were all in the same boat here. Admonishing each other seems pointless to me. Just my 2 cents, of course.

[sheilaE]

I agree!! I've been reading all these response, some posts are really helpful and others are down right depressing. For goodness sake-there's nothing wrong with a getting some Christmas presents for the kids! So Melody, get your little ones some affordable Christmas presents and lets just end this thread on a happy note!

[AngelinaCat]

The operative word is 'affordable'. The OP is proposing to spend several hundred dollars on a 6 year old and a 2 year old. That is what the posters are taking exception to--not the idea of Christmas gifts to children.

[debee]

Telling the OP what she needs to prepare for - flexibility within her budget, adapting to what the trustee will permit, planning for Murphy's visit, etc - seemed like really great, factual advice that would be of benefit to anyone who reads this thread. Some of the other comments seemed, well, less so.

[MelodyAM75]

I am really not sure why I am bothering to reply, but I have already said mulitiple times that I made the decision to stop using credits cards a few months ago and they have all been cut up. I am not using credit to buy gifts. I also never said I was spending $600 on just Christmas. My son's birthday is Dec. 1 and my daughter's is January 11 so it all comes together and I was considering the costs of their cake, gifts, etc. The $600 I mentioned included both birthdays and Christmas. I was lucky enough to win a drawing from a free Lazer Tag party for my son (we usually just have parties at our house so that it's free except for a few decorations (using Dollar Tree stuff) and the cake which runs about $25 from Wal-Mart. I can't make a decent looking cake and always have about 15-20 family members come to celebrate with us. Anyway, I am going to stop trying justify making birthdays and Christmas nice for my kids since so many are opposed. I appreciate those who have posted in my defense and really can't understand why others have been so negative about the whole thing. I don't own any jewelry (except for my wedding rings, which were purchased for under $300) and have hand-me down furniture and not a single piece of china (just Wal-Mart dishes). I am not living an extravagant lifestyle. I don't plan to throw away $800-$900 on an apartment when I live in family-freindly neighborhood in a house that will hopefully one day be paid off. Now, that would be stupid to pay rent and have nothing to show for it. I work hard teaching special education students and writing freelance on the side and don't just throw my money away. I don't go to casinos, I don't drink any alcohol, smoke cigerettes and give my husband a hard time when he wants to get ribeyes for supper once per month because I think they cost too much.

And as far as why I ended up here in the first place...well, it wasn't from running up gambling debt of credit card debt...it was from nearly dying of severe pre-eclamsia and giving birth to a 3 1/2 pound baby girl who required an extended hospital stay and heart surgery in 2008. I don't many people who have enough extra income to pay thousands of dollars in medical bils. I didn't get in this mess by buying designer clothes, jewelry or other extravagant things. So, I really wish people would stop telling me how I have caused all this and will be desitute before long...I got by spending $60 dollars in groceries just this week by using coupons and my kroger card....I am going to get control of my finances with bankruptcy relief...and I will be just fine and so will my kids...

No is trying to convince you... but we agree with your trustee that $600 for kids gifts is going overboard, which is how you ended up here in the first place. If you're not going to change much, then why even file 13? Just move to an apartment and carry on. When the money and the credit runs out, you'll get it.

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks for sharing your story. I, too, think I initially encountered a lawyer who frowned upon any "extra" spending. However, after checking with other lawyers, I have been told that they would never expect parents to neglect to buy gifts for their kids. I already left all my paperwork with the first lawyer and am waiting to hear back about their proposed plan, but have already scheduled a meeting with a more family-friendly lawyer during my Thanksgiving break just in case the plan proposed by the first lawyer is too harsh. I think bankruptcy should be a relief, not a punishment. I suspect my monthly payment will be at least $1000/month and I think I can find extra money for a few gifts here and there.

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks for your post Sheila. I appreciate your concern. I will be getting affordable gifts and enjoying the holidays with my kids. I hope you and your family will have a nice holiday as well.

[MelodyAM75]

My holiday budget was considering my son's 9th birthday on Dec. 1 and my daughter's 3rd birthday on Jan. 11 along with Christmas. I still don't think $600 is an extravagant amount when you are considering 2 kids and 3 special events.

[debee]

Glad you're still here. Don't let anyone chase you out. Just remember there are as many big dummies in here as anywhere, and lots of kind people who misunderstand, some who you should just ignore, others who type in haste, experts who will give and give and give, quiet ones lurking with love, etc. Diverse group and you will find support here, even if this particular thread has been a bit like getting jumped into a gang.

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks for the support. I do want to stay around because I have learned a lot from reading the posts, but just have been rather shocked how this thread has gotten so out of control. I will probably stay around and respond to other threads and read threads, but I will think twice before starting a new thread of my own again.

Glad you're still here. Don't let anyone chase you out. Just remember there are as many big dummies in here as anywhere, and lots of kind people who misunderstand, some who you should just ignore, others who type in haste, experts who will give and give and give, quiet ones lurking with love, etc. Diverse group and you will find support here, even if this particular thread has been a bit like getting jumped into a gang.

[ShooFly]

My holiday budget was considering my son's 9th birthday on Dec. 1 and my daughter's 3rd birthday on Jan. 11 along with Christmas. I still don't think $600 is an extravagant amount when you are considering 2 kids and 3 special events.

And that is exactly where many of us think you are missing the boat. The $600 dollar amount is extravagant. If you can afford to shell out $600 for gifts, then you should be able to make your $500 student loan payment. But nobody but your trustee is saying "don't buy gifts at all" - it's just the dollar amount many people are questioning because it is high. And I won't apologize for being straight-forward, it's who I am.