My head is spinning. Most bizarre 341 today.

[Cristo]

OK, I don't even know where to start. I just got home from my 341 today. The trustee was not even there, he sent his staff lawyer to do the questioning. I only watched one case before mine and it was over in about 10 minutes and the guy was on his second bk, owed multiple people child support, etc. He hardly got any questions.

Then came mine. This woman (she did not introduce herself so I don't know her name) opens up by saying that she calculated my income and came up with $1000 more per month than what we had down. She would not tell us how she came up with the number but just told us to go back and redo it. Now, let me say that I have calculated the number myself and so have 6 or 7 different attorneys and we all came up with the number on my forms. I work for the gov. we don't get bonuses or anything, every check is the same month after month.

Then she says she wants a receipt that I have surrendered the car I am surrendering.......my lawyer countered that they had not filed to lift the stay and that until we are confirmed I would be keeping the car because BofA is fighting me on the value of the car I want to keep and I will have to decide which car I ultimately want to keep based on that outcome. She dropped it. Hello? I'm just this week 30 days late on the car (Suntrust took a payment after I filed and claimed that I scheduled it before I filed so they were entitled to it), they wouldn't even repo it at this point and she wants me to surrender? Anyway.......

Then she says she wants to see all my records for stocks that I sold in '07 and '08 because it's within the 3 year look back period for fraudlent transfers??? I sold the stock on the open market via etrade there is no way I could have gotten less than market value for it? My lawyer about came unglued and said "see you in court" on that one. She said fine and it deteriorated from there.

I think my lawyer was scolded for bad behavior and not treating her like she is used to being treated at least 3 times. Oh boy.

She went on to say that she wanted us to add back in the payment on the means test for my second since I will be stripping it. My lawyer said no way and we will fight that in court. She never mentioned adding back in the payment for the car I am surrendering, which I think they would have a much better chance at winning??

Not one question about the expenses I thought they might find questionable. Never asked about my $325/month medical or my 189 cable/internet/phone bill, or the $100 a month I put down for support of my elderly parents.

I don't get it. Basically, she said based on her income calcs I should be paying $400 something a month to unsecureds and they are currently getting only $149. This does not make sense either since if she has me making $1000 more a month plus wants to deny the $198/month payment on my HELOC then unsecureds should be getting over $1000 a month?? None of this adds up. She did not provide us with any of her calculations. I can't help but think she just slopped this thing together at the last minute. It's so bizarre.

I asked my lawyer afterward if they could later object to other expenses or was that going to be it. I got two different answers from him so I'm not sure. It was just so bizzarre my head was spinning. Especially since they were acting like children while arguing. Not at all what I had imagined. Does anyone know? My lawyer said he was going to talk to the trustee (who was not there) about it.

I really don't want to give them my stock transaction info if I don't have to. The less that is part of the public record the better as far as I'm concerned. She said she wanted to "see if I made any money" on it. I have no problem giving my tax returns but I don't need to produce reams of paper trying to recreate all this bs.

I hope this does not scare anyone who is worried about their 341......If there is a bizarre thing that can happen it always happens to me. I am over the median by about 2.5 times so I'm sure I got extra questioning but not at all what I expected. I'm sorry if there are spelling errors, the spell check function does not work with my computer.......

[Cristo]

OK I forgot, she also complained that my first payment was for $267 when my proposed plan payment was $437. She said I would have to "make it right". I got out my plan and showed her where it said to do that and pay the rest to BofA as a payment on the car??? That's how it ended. Unbelievable!

[NoTomatoCan]

Sorry that you had such a bad 341 experinece. I guess if you look at the positive - it can (hopefully) only get better from here! In our district only the staff attorneys handle the 341 meetings, so that doesn't seem too unusual.

She went on to say that she wanted us to add back in the payment on the means test for my second since I will be stripping it. My lawyer said no way and we will fight that in court. She never mentioned adding back in the payment for the car I am surrendering, which I think they would have a much better chance at winning??

I don't get it. Basically, she said based on her income calcs I should be paying $400 something a month to unsecureds and they are currently getting only $149. This does not make sense either since if she has me making $1000 more a month plus wants to deny the $198/month payment on my HELOC then unsecureds should be getting over $1000 a month?? None of this adds up. She did not provide us with any of her calculations. I can't help but think she just slopped this thing together at the last minute. It's so bizarre.

I had a much smoother 341, but DID end up having to add the 2nd mortgage expense and a property we surrendered back into our Means Test. There is case law to support this position (including Lanning), so probably bad news for you there. For us it made it so that our Means Test amount was greater than our Schedules I/J so the amount we were required to pay back got increased.

I asked my lawyer afterward if they could later object to other expenses or was that going to be it. I got two different answers from him so I'm not sure.

Once again, some bad news for you. The trustee can most definitely still object after the 341. Ours didn't actually provide any formal objections until after the 341. They did provide a "341 Status Sheet" just prior to the 341 that listed some potential "concerns" but most of those were addressed at the 341 and the real objections were on other items (stripped 2nd mortgage was one of them - similar to yourself). Remember, comments or questions that the trustee has at the 341 arem't necessarily formal objections. Those often come later.

I really don't want to give them my stock transaction info if I don't have to. The less that is part of the public record the better as far as I'm concerned. She said she wanted to "see if I made any money" on it. I have no problem giving my tax returns but I don't need to produce reams of paper trying to recreate all this bs.

This seems like an odd one for your attorney to come unglued on. How difficult is it to produce statements from eTrade? Similar to providing the trustee with bank statements, I figured this sort of thing was par for the course. Seems like a stretch that you would be hiding something almost 3 years ago, just waiting to file BK in 2010 (now THAT would be some good pre-BK planning!) - but maybe the trustee is simply turning over stones to see what is underneath. We had a capital gains loss carry over on our tax returns from a stock sale several years ago that got a closer look at our 341. Simply pointed the trustee to schedule D on our tax return and gave an explanation and the trustee never raised an actual objection.

[Cristo]

Thanks NoTomatoCan! I appreciate your response very much. I think you are right, I'm not going to fight the Etrade stuff especially since there is nothing there to find and if they want to be buried under a mountain of paperwork maybe it will keep them busy and they will miss a few other things I'm on less solid ground on. I was a very active trader in 2008 and there are a lot of transactions but there is no way they will ever get to improper transfer since I sold the stock on the market and if they are looking for hiden assets.....well, good luck because there aren't any. It's not worth pissing them off over. I was suprised he had such a strong reaction to it as well. I think it's because the way she phrased it as being a possible improper transfer...there is no way I could have improperly transfered the stock. If I was smart enough to manipulate etrade and the stock market I would not be in bk!

Thanks for the insights from your 341. I was afraid they could still object. Well, I can see it's going to be a long road to the finish line on this one. My lawyer is of the mindset that it's the judge that decides what the payment will be and not the trustee if they are not following case law. My understanding is that case law is split on it and it has not been ruled on in Maryland yet. I hired him in part because he has strong ideas on Lanning and his view is that for the car I'm surrendering I might have to add back in the payment, but for the HELOC, since I will not be free of the lein until 5 years when I am discharged, I'm not technically free of the payment. If the BK goes south and I don't make the 5 years, even if I convert to a 7 the HELOC comes back and I'm on the hook for it. We will see how it plays out. Maybe we will have some new case law when we are done. He told her that "we will fight it all the way", so I have no idea what I'm in for, but it should be interesting.

I also found out that BofA is fighting my valuation of the car I want to keep. They say it's worth $25,000!! Full retail KBB is only $16,000 and I have a repair estimate from a dealer for $4500 in repairs that it needs. I tried to refinance the loan with BofA last year to try to improve my cash flow and avoid bk. They turned me down for it because they claimed the car was only worth $16,000 and I owed $22,000 on it at that point. I owe about $15,000 on it now.

The trustee also made a comment about "the IRS came in at less". I don't see the claims listed on PACER and I have no idea what they are. Should they be on PACER or somewhere else?

What an eyeopening experience this has all been. I never dreamed I'd be here and almost really did drive myself into the poor house trying to avoid it, but what an education. I guess it's true, what does not kill you really does make you stronger. I'm about as strong as I ever want to get at this point! Between loosing my husband to cancer 7 years ago at the age of 34, after 12 years of marriage, fighting BofA to mod my house, and now BK, I've had enough ups and downs to last for a while. I have learned a lot of lessons. I'm very thankful for this forum and the education and support it provides. It really is invaluable. I know I have it better than a lot of people and I hope to be able to help those who need it as I go along.

Thanks again NoTomatoCan you are always postive and helpful.

[minan]

I had my creditors mtg this morning. Certainly not as "exciting" as yours, however I got flustered by a completely unexpected question. My response was not clear as I was not prepared. I've been upset since I left the mtg. I can't stop crying. Trustee wants to see me again in Jan 2011 which is the earliest he can see me (shows how backed up they are). This also means my plan probably won't get confirmed until next year. It sucks!

You seem to have a good attitude about it though. I wish I could. I had just come to grips with the fact that I'm in the mess I'm in, but I was doing the right thing. Now I feel totally unhinged.

[Cristo]

Minan:

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm sorry it did not go well for you either. I go back and forth between thinking I'm going to come out all right and feeling totally panicked. If my payment goes up a lot from my proposed plan there is no way I will be able to do it. My budget is already cut too much. I finally came to the conclusion over the weekend that I have to stay strong and fight as hard as I can now, so that I don't spend the next 5 years crying over my payment being too high.

I feel that most attorneys do NOT do a very good job of preparing their clients for what happens during the process. Yours should have clued you in to what was likely to come up. I'm thinking about doing up a little information sheet for him to give to his clients since I had to drag it out of him about how it would go. That's what I do for a living.....I prepare senior executives for Congressional Hearings if I let them go into a hearing the way we go into 341s I would be fired. It is my job to know what a witness will be asked, or at least anticipate likely questions. Heck, I even write proposed answers for them. My lawyer is very good and I know he knows what he is doing, but a little hand holding never hurts.

I'm sorry you have to go back for another meeting. I was not told that I need to come back, but I'm still trying to piece together what is going to happen next. My confirmation hearing is set for Oct, but attorney says that's likely to be postponed because the motion to value my car will not be heard until Nov. More waiting and wondering. I'm hoping my attorney will talk to the Trustee behind the scenes and get some of the "issues" from the 341 cleared up.

Got a letter from AMEX saying that they are "thinking about challenging my plan" and they want some information from me. I want to tell them to pound sand and they should have come to my 341 and asked me. I will rely on my attorney to decide what to do since maybe cooler heads need to prevail, but I'm not inclined to help them go fishing. They did cc the Trustee though so I will probably have to address the issue anyway. Thanks! Now everyday I'm wondering what will be next.....

Stay strong Minan. If your attorney is not worried chances are you should not be either.

[jmac]

Amex do't mess around, had a few lawyers tell me that. They forced me to start my 13 a few months before i wanted to with a judgement to garnish my wage.

[GG1981]

Back in 2005 I was able to settle with American Express for half of what I owe them. That was a settlement process outside of court. From what I have heard them and Citi are among the most aggressive these days.


My 341 was unique and a little complex. My trustee objected to my plan right away. The 341 meeting was on 03/31/10 and it was finally confirmed in 06/06/10. In all the only modification to my plan was two months added. Instead of 36 months, it was stretched out to 38 months. During the actual 341, I actually talked a lot. The trustee asked me many questions. They were all mostly confirming info. From what I heard my trustee is hard as nails. Both me and my attorney were prepared and did everything as he instructed. In all I think it was a good session.

[CoBelle]

I think you're doing great Cristo...so hang in there. It does sound like a bizarre 341...so many are just a 5 minute set question kind of thing. At mine, the trustee was no problem, it was my ex and his lawyer who made a fool of themselves. Then I had to do a 2004 exam where ex's lawyer kept me 9 hours asking the dumbest questions I ever heard. (I kept thinking about how much money this lawyer was charging my ex which helped me keep my very best Mona Lisa smile on my face til I wore him down!

I think that might be the secret...just wear them down.

I'm wondering how much you are paying your lawyer if he wants to litigate everything????? Is it all included or is he getting paid hourly?

[Cristo]

Thanks for the encouragement CoBelle! I read all your recent posts so I know you have been through more than I can imagine. You sound like you are hanging tough so I know you will come out ok. It is amazing to me what some people have to go through in a divorce. Makes me not want to ever get married again.... I hope your health issues remain in check so you can wear your ex down......it sounds like if ever there was someone who deserved to be worn down it's him (he deserves much more but I will leave it at that).

My lawyer wanted me to pay him hourly at first but then agreed to do it for $3500 up front before I filed and then any additional charges would go in the plan. I'm a little worried about that, but I'm hoping that BofA does not fight on stripping my 2nd. I think his tactic is to threaten the Trustee to fight and then see how serious they are. He knows that they take a risk by fighting on everything too. We will see how it goes. I will keep everyone updated on how this goes. I did mention to him as I was leaving the day we filed that I would pay him a bonus if he kept my payment close to what my plan is now. I like providing motivation for people's full attention, rather than paying for hours put in. I know it's not how they are used to working, but I thought it was worth a shot.

I hope you find someone new to represent you who knows what they are doing. $10,000 is a lot to have put into this already. I fired 2 previous lawyers that I had partially paid before I found my current (and hopefully last) lawyer, so I'm in this for a total of $6000 so far. I think I made the right move, but the uncertainty of this whole process is nerve wracking.

I wish you the best, stay in touch and stay strong!

[CoBelle]

Thanks C...I'm trying, even though some days it feels like a terrible weight on my shoulders.
I'm glad you have an attonrey who is willing to fight for you; I'm kinda worried that my attonrey might be trying to sabotage my case.
But after paying her so much dinero, who has money to hire someone else?

I kinda like your idea of paying yours a bonus...not sure if that's illegal, but I guess we can give anyone a GIFT can't we?
Have you heard anything more from Am Ex?