I have a lawyer philosophy question

[holycrap]

*** Sorry for the length of this post. Any thoughts would be appriciated***

We met yesterday with our lawyer with the intention of signing the paperwork and getting on with this process, but we were not able to for a couple of reasons. The propossed payment was much higher than i anticipated, but that wasn't the main reason.

The main reason was that she didn't make any allowances for anything that was not on her software program. I really thought that there was a little flexability in the nbational standards. We have three dogs and feeding them alone is 100.00 a month. she said there was no place in our proposed budget for any expenses like that. Our energy bills here in texas are higher and i have 12 months of statements and she didn't seem willing to make any changes there either.

She also said since we do not escrow our homeowners insurance there was no loine item for that and we would ned to come up with that money out of our budget somewhere else. How can that be?

I guess my question is really about a lawyers philosophy of how they approach Chapter 13's. Is there any benefit for an attorney to try and maximize our expenses and build a reasonable budget or in the end is it more practical just to go with the national standards because that is the way it is going to end up anyway?

I have only paid her a retainer of 500.00 and I am thinking I have made a mistake. I will admit that i will probably be aprehensive about filing no matter what attorney I retain or what payment we end up with. I get paid commision and will never feel comfortable with my ability to always meet my Chapter 13 payment.

[justbroke]

The main reason was that she didn't make any allowances for anything that was not on her software program. I really thought that there was a little flexability in the nbational standards.

That National Standards are there for a reason. There is flexibility but only in certain categories. For example, you can go over on food by 5% if you can document a reason for it (like medical). Other things, like home energy costs, can be exceeded with proper documentation. Not everything is flexible.

We have three dogs and feeding them alone is 100.00 a month. she said there was no place in our proposed budget for any expenses like that. Our energy bills here in texas are higher and i have 12 months of statements and she didn't seem willing to make any changes there either.

Feeding dogs, although they are like family members, are not a necessary expense. Some Courts (Districts) will allow a nominal amount to be spent, but they won't do so if there are a number of animals since that's by choice.

She also said since we do not escrow our homeowners insurance there was no loine item for that and we would ned to come up with that money out of our budget somewhere else. How can that be?

She is wrong. She should have added the insurance into the mortgage payment on Form B22C (line 47) and checked the amount "includes taxes and insurance".

Is there any benefit for an attorney to try and maximize our expenses and build a reasonable budget or in the end is it more practical just to go with the national standards because that is the way it is going to end up anyway?

That's what you pay them for... however, the standards can't be abused. As I wrote earlier, some areas can be exceeded but most are hard limits.

[holycrap]

Feeding dogs, although they are like family members, are not a necessary expense. Some Courts (Districts) will allow a nominal amount to be spent, but they won't do so if there are a number of animals since that's by choice.

I don't want to abuse any part of the plan, but i would like to feel comfortable with my ability to pay my comitment. I would also like to feel like my attorney is trying to get me the best plan possible. I cannot say i have that feeling right now.

She is wrong. She should have added the insurance into the mortgage payment on Form B22C (line 47) and checked the amount "includes taxes and insurance".

This is the part that bothers me most. she should know this already.

That's what you pay them for... however, the standards can't be abused. As I wrote earlier, some areas can be exceeded but most are hard limits.

She didn't either know the difference or was unwilling to find out. At this point i have almost no confidence in her.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[ednasouth]

My power bill expenses was based on my last 6 months actual bills. We are on leveled billing so that should be a good average. I pay my house insurance separately and it was added as an expense somewhere else in the paperwork. From what I understand you will have to budget yourself for your pets. Look at what you clothing allowance is. The IRS standards they go by for those are pretty liberal. You may be able to save some of you clothing allowance to cover your pets.

PS. My attorney told me he is there to help me pay back the least amount to unsecured creditors as legally possible.

[LadyInTheRed]

Your attorney should fight to make sure you have a reasonable budget. An experienced Chapter 13 attorney should know what the Trustee will have a problem with. I have read that many districts do not allow pet care expenses in your budget, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was right about that. But, for things like utilities and homeowners insurance, she should give some explanation as to why an actual verifiable necessary expense cannot be included other than that there is no line item for it. While it is true there is nowhere to put many items on Sched 22C which is largely based on Federal Standards, that isn't true on Schedule J which is supposed to show your anticipated expenses. Homeowners insurance not included in mortgage payments goes on line 11a. Line 17 is for other expenses not included elsewhere on the form. The top of the schedule specifically states that expenses may differ from the expenses used for Sched 22C (which is what uses federal standards). Are you sure she is talking about Schedule J and not Schedule 22C?

It's possible the attorney knows what she's talking about. But, if she's saying you can't include your actual reasonable utilities and insurance payments on Schedule J, you should consult with a couple of other attorneys and see if they say the same thing. It would suck to lose that $500 retainer. But, it would be better to lose that money than to eventually have your case dismissed because your can't make your plan payments.

[justbroke]

PS. My attorney told me he is there to help me pay back the least amount to unsecured creditors as legally possible.

That's the type of attorney everyone should have. You hire them to make sure you have the best plan that works for you... not the creditors.

[LadyInTheRed]

It's amazing how much can go on while typing a response!

[holycrap]

While it is true there is nowhere to put many items on Sched 22C which is largely based on Federal Standards, that isn't true on Schedule J which is supposed to show your anticipated expenses. Homeowners insurance not included in mortgage payments goes on line 11a. Line 17 is for other expenses not included elsewhere on the form. The top of the schedule specifically states that expenses may differ from the expenses used for Sched 22C (which is what uses federal standards). Are you sure she is talking about Schedule J and not Schedule 22C?

It's possible the attorney knows what she's talking about. But, if she's saying you can't include your actual reasonable utilities and insurance payments on Schedule J, you should consult with a couple of other attorneys and see if they say the same thing. It would suck to lose that $500 retainer. But, it would be better to lose that money than to eventually have your case dismissed because your can't make your plan payments.

I wish i could tell you for certain whether it was Schedule J or form 22C, but i don't know. We went over it almost all of it and i never saw what it was called. I appreciate everyones comments and I think at the very least I will consult with another attorney. If she didn't know where to include my homeowners insurance there is no telling what else she missed.

[Flamingo]

I would get some more consultations with a few other attorneys as soon as possible. At this point, however, you may be out $500 if you decide not to go with her. Depends on what is stated in the agreement you signed when you retained her. A good attorney prepares a Plan that will allow you to get through a Chapter 13 with as little hardship as possible that will allow you to successfully complete the Plan in full. He/she represents you and tries to give you as much relief as possible and wants to present a Plan that will get past the Trustee since the Trustee does not represent you, he/she is there for the creditors.

Your dog expenses will be an issue because on top of that you will have vet/shot expenses for 3 animals. While you may think otherwise, to an attorney or trustee feeding pet dogs is not a necessity but a choice and that is at least $1200 per year (just for food) that could be provided to your creditors. If you want to keep the dogs through your Chapter 13, you may want to look into having a family member help you out as to their expenses if that is at all possible. Otherwise, just as with something major going wrong with the house, you could be facing an enormous vet bill that you could not possibly afford. I would discuss thoroughly with your retained attorney or any attorney with which you may have another consutation.

[tigergem]

I don't understand how an attorney could be so baffled by the budgeting process. My budget worked out so precisely it's almost scary. My unsecured creditors are getting a 0.07% payout and I have 10% padding in my budget for an emergency fund. It didn't seem all that complicated to me! And... I also have 3 dogs. I included my actual insurance and utilities in there, too. At my 341 I just had to produce the declaration pages for my insurance. It just sounds crazy that she couldn't figure it out.

Oh by the way, the allowance for one person for groceries is $285/month. I stated $400/month and it wasn't questioned. Maybe they figured it included personal care or whatever. I just put what I "normally" spent at the grocery store every week, and then learned really crash course style how to cut back on that expense. So maybe the dogs aren't getting "cookies" as often as they would like. Nobody is starving. I promise.

[Flamingo]

I don't understand how an attorney could be so baffled by the budgeting process. My budget worked out so precisely it's almost scary. My unsecured creditors are getting a 0.07% payout and I have 10% padding in my budget for an emergency fund. It didn't seem all that complicated to me! And... I also have 3 dogs.

Nothing is "cookie cutter" when it comes to BK. What happens to one person does not happen to the other and when one person reads something on here, the resopnse is usually "well, gee, that didn't happen to us..." A lot depends on the state and the district, your attorney and the trustee. The key is to get a good attorney who knows the trustee and the dog expenses may get through figured in the figures somewhere...

[tigergem]

A lot depends on the state and the district, your attorney and the trustee. The key is to get a good attorney who knows the trustee and the dog expenses may get through figured in the figures somewhere...

The OP is in Texas. So am I. Maybe a different district, they didn't say. As for getting a good attorney who knows the trustee... you know... I seriously did not bother to "get to know" the trustee before I filed. It's not like you have a choice anyway, you just have to deal with that box of chocolates when you get to it. So maybe... just maybe... it is more about having an ounce of common sense than a law degree.

[holycrap]

The OP is in Texas. So am I. Maybe a different district, they didn't say. As for getting a good attorney who knows the trustee... you know... I seriously did not bother to "get to know" the trustee before I filed. It's not like you have a choice anyway, you just have to deal with that box of chocolates when you get to it. So maybe... just maybe... it is more about having an ounce of common sense than a law degree.

I am in Grapevine (near Ft. Worth) and hopefully i will end up with a trustee who manages his filers like yours seems to.

*** I would love to hear from anyone in the area with a good attorney recomendation. I am going to take Flamingos' and HHMs' advice and go on a few more visits. There has to be someone who better understands the process.***** Please PM me.

[BigJohn]

Feeding the home's 'security system' is $100.00 per month.

[justbroke]

Feeding the home's 'security system' is $100.00 per month.

There is an exception for "protective" devices, but you must have a court order which is related to some sort of domestic violence issue. Otherwise, home security systems are not covered.