2nd Investor House About to be Listed

[Barbisi]

Well, almost one month to the day since we arrived, our former 1975 house is going to be listed tomorrow at near 700K!
Although at first glance it appears we lost substantial money on our off-market sale to the investor, this buyer has mostly gutted the home, according to the available description (no photos are as yet included in the listing).
Brand new quartz countertops and new backsplash, all SS kitchen appliances new soft close cabinets along with a bar seating area (which has to mean some wall removal) , all new wood floors on the main level except the newly tiled half bath, new living room LED lighting (The LR was not wired for overhead lighting when we lived there and we were told it would entail a lot of work and expense to put it in so we got by with lamps), all 6 panel doors throughout, all newly remodeled bathrooms with a "new gorgeous bronze" shower enclosure in the (very small) master bath, new carpet and paint throughout, new black railing for the stairs, brand new furnace and AC, etc. No mention was made of the badly scratched outdated kitchen sink (which needed to be retired) or the (cracked) laundry room(sink) which leaked and had to be shut off permanently while we lived there, but I assume both were either fixed and replaced or removed and sealed off in the case of the downstairs sink.
We did love the old diner style kitchen booth, the massive built in painted wood custom desk/ bookshelf office which amounted to more than half the bedroom space , the blue speckled kitchen Corian countertop and one very nice upstairs vanity, but we hated the stairs and the slowly eroding condition of the rest of the house which we simply couldn't afford to repair and update, especially while were in the clutches of the five-year BK13 Gods.( No doubt all of the above items as well as many others , including the low-end white Amana kitchen appliances ,ended up in the dumpster she surely rented.)
I'm sure you savvy RE forum members will have your own take on how much all this cost, but I can't see how this could be done for less than 50k even with a professional house flipper like this veteran real estate agent.
She is clearly blessed to have a trusted and seasoned crew of carpenters, painters, electricians, plumbers, etc. to get everything perfectly market ready where we had a ceiling of less than 30k to paint, replace carpets, put in SS appliances, fix many small but serious plumbing issues, replace the failing old furnace, etc. , had to find for the most part overpriced pros and struggle to find a place to stay with our fur babies while all of this extensive work was done. We were simply outmanned, outgunned and could never have gotten the bang for the buck that she got on the updates and materials and will get on the sale price.
At least this time we understood that the only way for us to win in this insane market was to take the money offered, sell out and get out of that state with the least effort possible ASAP. Of course, the very timely job offer made all this possible. If that hadn't happened..........?
We learned that the hard way from the first investor home fiasco in 20014 -2016 which led directly to BK13 in 2017.
No doubt she put in many lower cost investor products purchased at wholesale prices but labor for around twenty days or so of this kind of total remodel can't be cheap, can it, shipo, justbroke , @Carmella ,flashoflight ,etc.?

[justbroke]

The flippers don't necessarily use just "contractor grade" fixtures and appliances when it comes to homes that will sell over the median market price. I would hope that potential buyers (and their agents) will know it's a fix-and-flip and will not be interested in gutting and redoing the home again.

I would use the quality of products based on the neighborhood and what the price demands. For example, depending on the neighborhood home prices, and median sales, I might expect quartz counters, a double wall oven, a kitchen island, and upgraded appliances (not contractor/build "level 1" grade). The experts at flipping know just what to put in. Sure, they may go to Home Depot, but don't let Home Depot fool you. I just paid $10K on 4 new appliances. I could have bought the contractor package for $2K.

My bottom line would be what does the area demand. Should I have hollow-core slab doors that you can get from Home Depot for $60, with cheap hardware? Or do you use the $200 solid doors? The hardware on the doors is also what I look at. Brushed nickel handles, or old fashioned "brass" round nobs?

The trim and finish is what catches my eyes.

[Barbisi]

justbroke , I am using our experience as a guide to how she probably redid everything.
We spent over 100k on the disaster investor property, putting in very nice-looking vanities (bought at Lowe's), high-quality materials placed throughout but bought quite reasonably with very attractive visuals, replaced all the ugly old doors, etc., replaced and repaired every single outdated system and still lost money and ended up bankrupt.
We were even told by our realtors that we went above and beyond what most successful flippers do and now we can fully understand what that means - cutting costs on unnecessary products (like installing cheaper pedestal bathroom sinks and economy toilets) and gearing your remodel to what the average buyer wants and not customizing the house to your own luxurious - looking, unique tastes. (In other words, making the house look as vanilla- like as possible.)
Since we thought we would be living there a few years (instead of just a few days shy of two years because of my mother's sudden and wholly unanticipated demise), we strove to make it comfortable and elegant -looking (all Lamps Plus LED lighting, for example) instead of generic Home Depot- style.
The demand there is definitely slowing down with 5 houses currently listed (including our former abode) in that neighborhood, and two have already reduced their prices, so she may not get the bidding war she may well be expecting, no matter how fancy the updates and remodel is.
I am just relieved that we didn't get rooked a second time and that we ended up with far more money than we would have had we tried to do all those repairs with the pittance we had available. And now that the market is slowing down, we would have had to sell to an investor shark who might have paid us 50+k less.
At least we don't have to stay in Colorado and refile BK13!

[justbroke]

Barbisi many times we fall in love with the home without a deep look into the systems, quality of the build, and/or the finishing. I have never tried to do an investor home although I was part of a group that tried to do house-flipping. I learned that we weren't good at it. I like the idea of an investor home, but only for flipping. I'm not good at the interior design and choosing things.

We live. We learn. We survive.

[Barbisi]

justbroke, the first 1963 investor house was ugly , had an undesirable lay out that I always disliked, but my husband thought it had a reasonable mortgage (about the same as our rental house at the time) and that after we fixed it up we would learn to like it if not love it - it never happened! In fact, it drove us headlong into BK13 with a vengeance! And talk about hating a house - I still despise it!!!!
Everyone (once we made the terrible mistake of buying it!) told us we bought a lemon investor property and that if we couldn't find a way (i.e., come up with $$$$$) to make it livable and resalable, it would be our forever home and we would never be able to leave it!
So we got busy and charged 100K on CC and cash advances to make it a better, more modern place to live with resell potential!
Instead of making enough money to repay the CCs however ,we ended up losing 20K at the table and after paying old CC debt off from before 2014 ,we had just enough left to buy a much prettier , nicer but older house already in need of some (at that time minor) updates with a small down payment. And of course once we filed BK13 the next year, we were unable to do the necessary updates and repairs this house started needing, so we ended up with another fixer-upper 100% because of the bankruptcy filing.
I always said had we had the 100K we chose to waste on the 1963 dud to invest in the 1975 house instead that we just sold ,we could have turned that house into a showplace and we never would have had to go through BK13 in the first place!
Lesson #3: never buy a sweat equity house just because the mortgage payment is low - you might just end up bankrupt if you can't fix everything up yourself!

[flashoflight]

Barbisi I watch some low viewership Youtube videos from landlords and flippers. I've learned that it's hard to make a profit but easy to lose vast amounts of money on a flip even without going HGTV. I totally understand why the bad flippers will use the cheapest contractor grade stuff because the line between profit and loss isn't that far away. The most recent TV flipper show makes huge profits, but it's mostly due to crazy appreciation in Phoenix. I think those flips lose money hand over fist in a normal market like summer 2022 Phoenix. The guy that does the flips in Phoenix actually makes money from selling way overpriced courses rather than the flips.

My own house has been a recent money pit just because nothing lasts forever. I never had a chance to light money on fire for a solar system because I spent most of it on other stuff for the house. It's my forever house so I've tilted towards longer lasting fixtures rather than fixtures that have a heavy amount of plastic in it. Since it's my forever home, I don't try to improve the looks for the next owner because that will be a long time. It still has Oak cabinets, old kitchen tile, tube lighting, etc.

[Barbisi]

Thank you, flashoflight ! Your comments are right on and probably why I will resist buying another house as long as possible, LOL!

[Barbisi]

Investor home update :
justbroke, the pics were uploaded to the realtor site and just as I suspected ,she only partially gutted it -She removed a small portion of the wall dividing the kitchen from the formal dining area and recycled our 6 year old SS refrigerator by moving it to the other side where the pantry was . The kitchen cabinets and backsplash are not as luxurious as the description would lead you to believe they are. The former very unique and useful office room is just a very plain bedroom now. She used identical ceiling lights in the eat in kitchen area and dining room. She also used the same not too impressive floor tile on all three bathrooms in the photos. (Curiously, there is no photo of the main level half bath/powder room at all, nor is there a photo of either set of stairs in the available on line pictures,) The laundry room is MIA too. All the bath rooms have the same or very similar backsplash and vanities (off white) and the so-called "gorgeous bronze shower enclosure" isn't all that spectacular, to my eyes at least. She did put in recessed ceiling LED lights in the living room and in the great room by the fire place as well. She took out the half wall by the former booth that connects to the great room and installed a metal railing. The carpet upstairs seems a drab tan shade and looks worn already( seriously!) It appears she re used all four of our 6 year old toilets to further cut her costs. She did install new wood floors on the main level and replaced all or most of the doors in the photos.
Frankly I'm not bowled over with her redo - it is new of course , but many of the materials lack individuality and elegant touches. It definitely has the generic aura of an investor flip. Well, better her than us, Haha!
If I were in the market for a 700k house, I would pass it by ,LOL!

[Barbisi]

justbroke ,@flashoflight, et al., I just saw some photos our neighbors sent us of the open house they attended earlier today. The same black railing was used for the upstairs and downstairs as well as where the half wall once stood as the divider between the booth and the great room. She also kept the Lowe's closet we put in one of the upstairs bedrooms. She disposed of both of the LED ceiling fans as well as a crystal Lamps Plus LED ceiling light we wanted to bring with us, but Zombie 13 couldn't remove fully from the ceiling, so he just left it in place for her to throw away.
To me, her "fabulous" updates have no character or charm, they're just meant to appeal to the widest common denominator of buyers and accordingly are boring and dull.
Is that what state of the art house flipping is about, using the very same wall lights, vanities and tile in all bathrooms?

[Zombie13]

Barbisi
I never had a chance to light money on fire for a solar system because I spent most of it on other stuff for the house.

LOL that's funny! Light money on fire hahaha! I get it.
I saw the photos of the updated home now listed. It looks nice, clean, bright. But also? #NotMyProblem. Hell yeah. Got over $200,000, replaced our cars, got the dream job, in a much-better-for-us location. Yes there are some amenities we miss but: if we want them? Gotta work for them. And, we are at a much better Square One than ever before. So this time, we are doing it right.
To get to a larger place, with a larger yard, need a better credit score. How do we do that? Yep, @shipo's recipe for credit. Got a car loan; that's one thing. We will work on the rest soon: couple credit cards, AZEO. Work hard on a 'rarity' type job (folks keep telling me, my skillset is hard to find, they've referred to me, publicly, as an expert <which is nice but, I have never considered myself as such... gotta stay humble), increase income, etc.

[justbroke]

Is that what state of the art house flipping is about, using the very same wall lights, vanities and tile in all bathrooms?

That is exactly the state of house flipping. Give it some appeal. Make it look "modern" by using newer styled door hardware (black or brushed nickel). Add some laminates and/or some nice tile here or there. Knock down a wall and "open up the room." That's what you do, and if you can do it quickly you can actually make money on a flip.

[Barbisi]

Well, if all updated houses end up uniform flips like this 1975 one has, I'll guess we'll just have to pass up on buying another house outright. The seller from whom we bought the house in 2016, posted about it on social media, saying it looked "lovely", but one of her friends commented that it was all white and another said, "It's easier to paint over white". Really, you're supposed to pay 700K and then spend $$$$$ to change the color of cabinets and vanities among other things? What happened to variety of finishes and shades?

[Barbisi]

Barbisi I watch some low viewership Youtube videos from landlords and flippers. I've learned that it's hard to make a profit but easy to lose vast amounts of money on a flip even without going HGTV. I totally understand why the bad flippers will use the cheapest contractor grade stuff because the line between profit and loss isn't that far away. The most recent TV flipper show makes huge profits, but it's mostly due to crazy appreciation in Phoenix. I think those flips lose money hand over fist in a normal market like summer 2022 Phoenix. The guy that does the flips in Phoenix actually makes money from selling way overpriced courses rather than the flips.

My own house has been a recent money pit just because nothing lasts forever. I never had a chance to light money on fire for a solar system because I spent most of it on other stuff for the house. It's my forever house so I've tilted towards longer lasting fixtures rather than fixtures that have a heavy amount of plastic in it. Since it's my forever home, I don't try to improve the looks for the next owner because that will be a long time. It still has Oak cabinets, old kitchen tile, tube lighting, etc.

I would count myself lucky that I missed out on a solar panel lease if I were you, flashoflight! And now, if you could afford to pay for the solar panels that would be different because you would own them outright and should you ever need or want to sell, you would have no obstacle to a smooth and easy transaction because the buyer wouldn't have to qualify for the lease with a credit check.
In our case, that 20-year lease (ending only in 2033) was a huge albatross, esp. when we had to replace the roof (because of extreme hail damage) during both the active BK13 and the pandemic (2020). It cost 8K + more to have the panels temporarily removed and later reattached, and it was a nightmare to get it scheduled and to get the insurance to pay the extra cost and with the dearly departed swamp cooler our only cooling source, it didn't save the kind of money such an expensive set -up should.
Maybe solar makes sense in California and elsewhere, but it was just another bit of Colorado quicksand for us during our BK13 years.