Attorney Out--Pro Se In, What to do now?

[AngelinaCat]

Hi All:

As you may have read in previous posts, my husband, AngelinaCatHub, and I have not been happy with our attorney, and the myriad of problems that has arisen with our BK.

Since our 2004(b) Examination on May 22, we had been asking to confer with her about what should be done next. She was going to be in court the following week, but thereafter would have her assistant set up an appointment for June 2, or 3. Nothing came. We began emailing requests for meetings, asking what did we need to do, bring, etc. All of this was by email with ‘read receipts’ so that we would have a paper trail.

Without going into all the details again, after our last email request that she did finally respond to on June 18, she essentially said that she could do no more for us—that what we paid her to file our paperwork did not include any ‘extra work’. We responded that at this point, as we have no more funds, we were going to go pro se, and to please notify the court that she was no longer representing us, and that this was an amicable decision on the part of all involved.

To date, nothing has been filed with the Court, and she has gone on a two week vacation.

What steps do we need to take, and what forms do we need to file with the Court, notifying it that we are now pro se?

Thanks in advance.

[JRScott]

I'm not sure.

First thing might be to look on PACER and make sure there is nothing that needs to be answered that has not yet been answered.

Contact the Trustee and/or US Trustee and tell them that your lawyer has essentially abandoned you. (I mean 2 weeks with no replies is crazy.)

It is however standard that lawyers do charge more for extra work. You might look in your area for a Legal Aide to see if any lawyers can pick up the case on a pro bono rate.

You might also write your state's bar and complain about the lawyer, including the failure of communication you've experienced.

[AngelinaCat]

First thing might be to look on PACER and make sure there is nothing that needs to be answered that has not yet been answered.

Contact the Trustee and/or US Trustee and tell them that your lawyer has essentially abandoned you. (I mean 2 weeks with no replies is crazy.)

It is however standard that lawyers do charge more for extra work. You might look in your area for a Legal Aide to see if any lawyers can pick up the case on a pro bono rate.

You might also write your state's bar and complain about the lawyer, including the failure of communication you've experienced.

Hi JR: We have already done and /or thought about some of the things you suggest:

1. Pacer has been checked and is fine, so far.

2. The Trustee and his Examiner for the 2004(b) has been notified, by email, and a follow-up snail-mail. Also we called their offices and were told that we could not speak with either party while we were still represented, hence our actions.
(What really ticked us off this last time big time is that our ex attorney had gotten a letter from the Examiner on or about June 5, offering a deal to take care of the so-called preferential payments, that she sat on without notifying us until June 18, the day a response was due.)

3. When we first found this forum, we explored the possibility of legal aide. We have an office here, but it is telephone in only, and they may get around to answer your question once a week. To talk to a person, is a drive of about 50 miles one way--you know how fuel is, and if you have followed our posts at all, you know the number of situations and questions we have. There is a BK lawyer in our local area, but when we called for an appointment, the first available was about 6 weeks away. We were in dire straits emotionally then, and couldn't wait.

We understand that attorneys charge more for extra work, but why should we have to fork out more money that we do NOT have for a mistake that she admitted making? Of course she is back peddling all that. I wish that I could find the contract that we all signed, but that is the one document that I can't.
We purchased the Nolo Press Chapter 7 book, and started educating ourselves.

Right now, we just want out of the situation. We have reason to believe that ex attorney and Trustee are friends, and we do not want to P*** O*** the Trustee. So for now, we want to see how things go this way......

[deafbroke]

I would file a formal complain against your attorney with the state body that regulates them. That will get the attorneys attention. Then demand the "offer" that the BK sent your attorney be turned over to you so you can make an informed decision on it. And if there is any possibility of the trustee and your ex attorney being friends I would even go as far as asking for a new trustee if it's possible. Pro se is not easy and mistakes come back to bite you in the butt. I'm speaking from experience. Also, another attorney might charge a lot less as most of the paperwork is already done. I hired an attorney to straighten out my mess and got charged $300 for it. A far cry from hiring an attorney before even filing. Check it out you might be suprised what kind of rates you get now.

DB

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Hey Ms. Cat! My own suggestion would be to first, call the case manager assigned to your case: http://www.flmb.uscourts.gov/phoneli...cksonville.pdf -- call either the customer service number or the case manager directly (they are assigned by the last two numbers of your case #) and explain that you are now pro se; how can you change the attorney of record shown on your case? They should be able to tell you exactly what to do. You do not have to wait for your atty to do anything further.

Secondly, after that is done I would send a certified letter to the trustee (and the UST, if you think it appropriate) stating that Cruella DeVille is no longer your attorney, you are now pro se, this is now reflected in PACER (hence your direct contact by letter), and that you did not receive their settlement offer until the day it was due because she did not forward it to you until then.

If you're interested in taking them up on it, say so, and put it something like this: "Given that we were not in receipt of your settlement offer prior to its expiration date, but are very interested in settling, we request that you extend the expiration date on this offer by [two weeks? whatever amount of time you and 'Hub think is appropriate] so that we can study it carefully and give you our response to it. Please notify us of your decision by mail as soon as possible so that we can move forward without further delay or misunderstanding."

These two actions, changing the atty of record on PACER and the letter to the trustee/UST, should get you where you want to be, which is talking directly with the trustee about settling your bk estate and moving -- finally! -- toward discharge.

Good luck!!!

[AngelinaCat]

Hi DB and Ms. Daisy: Thanks for the replies. So far, we have in the works:

1. A letter to both the Trustee and his Examiner, sent on the due date of the offer letter (June 18, 2008) via email and snail mail informing them of our interest in the offer, and that Ms Cruella DeVille [I LOVE that!] was no longer representing us, and that we were now pro se. (I know it is before anything has hit PACER, but we had to start something to help ourselves.) We will follow these letters up by certified copies if you think it appropriate.

2. We have prepared a 'MOTION TO DISMISS COUNSEL AND PROCEED PRO SE' that will be sent to the court tomorrow, by certified letter. Copies are also prepared for the Trustee and the Examiner. If you want to see what we prepared, I'll post an edited version.

3. I will call the case manager in the morning and see what can be done with that. If I talk to the case manager, does this mean that the notice will go up on PACER before the certified mail gets there? And do I NEED the Motion then? [I would think so.]

The earliest the Motion would get there is 12:00 Noon Tuesday if I overnight it, and from where we live, it would probably get there overnight anyway, but I don't want to take any chances.

Thanks for all your input. This Forum Community is wonderful. It has truly been a God-send.

[Flamingo]

I admire you both for being so proactive and taking your situation head on. Not knowing your case and your Examination situation and by just reading the above, I would certainly file a complaint against that lawyer with your State Bar Association. From the time you retained her to represent you, she was responsible for your case. If matters arose where there would be extra work and fees/costs involved, she would have consulted with you to agree to the extra work and to her retention to further work before she proceeded. When you first retained her, that was for representation for regular Chapter 7 purposes only unless there was other wording in the paperwork you signed at her retention indicating otherwise.

I enjoy your postings and I hope things work out for you in all this.

[AngelinaCat]

Or does it even have to be a Motion? Wouldn't some sort of 'Notice of Status Change' do?

[AngelinaCat]

I admire you both for being so proactive and taking your situation head on. Not knowing your case and your Examination situation and by just reading the above, I would certainly file a complaint against that lawyer with your State Bar Association. From the time you retained her to represent you, she was responsible for your case. If matters arose where there would be extra work and fees/costs involved, she would have consulted with you to agree to the extra work and to her retention to further work before she proceeded. When you first retained her, that was for representation for regular Chapter 7 purposes only unless there was other wording in the paperwork you signed at her retention indicating otherwise.

I enjoy your postings and I hope things work out for you in all this.

Hi Ms(?) Flamingo: I scooted in a second question right after you.

Actually, our association with this attorney began as an exploration for the possibility of going Ch. 13. As I said earlier, I wish I could find our copy of the contract we signed, but, oh well. Communication with her was *fair* while her assistant was Ms. Jane Doe. But when Ms. Doe left, and Mr. Black [I can't think of another pseudo.] came in, communication went down the toilet.

In July 2007, the Credit Counselor said at the time that with our income level the way it was, 'Hub's SS, pension, and Independent Contracting, and my FT and PT jobs, and our bills the way they are, that we were barely qualified for 13, and better suited to 7. Then, when I lost my FT job and 'Hub lost his major contract employer (at the same facility), Ch7 became our only choice.

BTW I can count on one hand the number of times I have been in her office for consultations, and one of those was when we got the date wrong and arrive 24 hours early! Two of those other times, she screamed at us for things we had done wrong, or handn't brought (because we didn't know to.) 'Hub had actually gone to her office two or three times more than that.

Going to the Bar remains a possibility, but for right now, we want to let the matter lie and see how it plays out.....

Thanks

[Help!]

Hi JR: We have already done and /or thought about some of the things you suggest:

(What really ticked us off this last time big time is that our ex attorney had gotten a letter from the Examiner on or about June 5, offering a deal to take care of the so-called preferential payments, that she sat on without notifying us until June 18, the day a response was due.)

I'm curious... Were you able to respond in time or did you miss out on a deal you would have accepted? I seem to remember reading something in BAPCPA about not penalizing the debtor for the attorney's failure to act. I know from your posts (and 'Hub's) that neither of you are the type to want to bring harm to anyone, but something needs to be done about that ex-attorney of yours. It would be one thing if she just dropped the ball from time to time, but this is really serious. This is absolute negligence!!

[AngelinaCat]

I'm curious... Were you able to respond in time or did you miss out on a deal you would have accepted? I seem to remember reading something in BAPCPA about not penalizing the debtor for the attorney's failure to act. I know from your posts (and 'Hub's) that neither of you are the type to want to bring harm to anyone, but something needs to be done about that ex-attorney of yours. It would be one thing if she just dropped the ball from time to time, but this is really serious. This is absolute negligence!!

Hi Help!: Time will tell. We got the letter on the day of the deadline to respond. We responded with email and paper letters and telephone calls to the Trustee's and Examiner's offices that very day. The fact that the Examiner was out of his office for a couple of days, works in our favor. We will just have to see what happens...... and we will keep everyone posted.

[southernbelle]

Good luck Angelina. I know things will work out for you guys because you aren't taking a back seat to this thing and making sure to contact the appropriate people "in writing" which is the right thing to do.

I think atty's like that should face reprisals when they don't hold up their end of the deal. Your case is too important to have to deal with an atty that threatens everything due to neglegence. IMO we pay them for representation and if they charge extra for something other than simply filing initial paperwork, they should tell us that up front.

Good luck to you both. You are both really smart and proactive and things will work out fine. Get through the filing first, then deal with the atty. later.

[AngelinaCat]

Hey Ms. Cat! My own suggestion would be to first, call the case manager assigned to your case: http://www.flmb.uscourts.gov/phoneli...cksonville.pdf -- call either the customer service number or the case manager directly (they are assigned by the last two numbers of your case #) and explain that you are now pro se; how can you change the attorney of record shown on your case? They should be able to tell you exactly what to do. You do not have to wait for your atty to do anything further.

Hi Ms. Daisy: Here's the latest. I just got off the phone with our Case Worker, and she essentially told me what we had been told by the Trustee's office and the Examiner's office--that they could not talk to me because we are represented by an attorney. She said that the attorney would have to notify the court. I said, "Ma'am, our attorney isn't going to do anything. She's gone on a two week vacation."

So, I am going straight to the post office and send off our paperwork, certified, and all that, and see how it goes. As luck would have it, 'Hub had to go out of town and won't be back until later this afternoon, and this week is the ONE week when my PT employment wants me to come in during the daytime hours, instead of evening. So we can't pursue any more telephone calls until later this afternoon.....

Thanks for everything. Going to the Bar is looking more attractive all the time….

[Flamingo]

Does your attorney work in a firm or is she by herself? Usually when attorneys go on vacation or are in court for an extended period of time on multiple days, they have a co-worker oversee their matters in that law firm (I know, I work in a law firm). Have you spoken directly with your attorney's assistant or paralegal to see if any other attorney is in charge of your matter while your attorney is out of the office?

[AngelinaCat]

Does your attorney work in a firm or is she by herself? Usually when attorneys go on vacation or are in court for an extended period of time on multiple days, they have a co-worker oversee their matters in that law firm (I know, I work in a law firm). Have you spoken directly with your attorney's assistant or paralegal to see if any other attorney is in charge of your matter while your attorney is out of the office?

No, she is by herself in her own office. She does have an assistant. I have no idea whether he is a trained paralegal or not, but I tend to think not. Actually he has been even harder to get information out of than she has...