Why the National bias against Petroleum?

[AngelinaCatHub]

Our Government's intent on "Green" energy is slightly flawed. As in the current news the failures of Green energy vs fraud and corruption is starting to prove that control not frugality is the intent on our Green energy push.

SMALL EXAMPLE: The Chevy volt.

Charges 8 to 12 hours. Range unless assisted by gasoline engine is 40 miles. To day electric cars pay no road taxes as the road tax is computed in the sale of Diesel and gasoline.

Charging a Volt takes about 23 KWH, that roughly equals 23lbs of coal. This coal puts more CO2 and other pollutants far above any gas engine, into our environment.

The making of ethanol takes about 26.1 lbs of corn to make one inefficient gallon of ethanol that has the possibility to do damage to your engine.

In Europe the diesel car out numbers gasoline. The Volkswagen diesel gets an average of 42 miles on one gallon of diesel. The 29 to 1 compression factor allows more oxygen than other polluting gasses out the tailpipe as the burn is almost a 100% of fuel. The diesel was invented before the spark plug engine.

The diesel can mix and burn several oil products mixed with little or no harm to the engine. Diesels last longer in that the top cylinder is lubricated by the fuel.

Diesels can burn fuel oil, kerosene, benzine, turpentine, peanut oil, soy, corn oil, spent but strained hydrolic fluid, mineral spirits, and bio diesel. It cannot burn gasoline or water.

You get more corn oil out of 26 lbs than ethanol. The diesel being multi-fueled, could put us off of imported oil. Potential fuel comes from pine trees, to soy beans. Anything that will burn, of an oil consistency.

These rambling thoughts came to me when I read the article about Government Motors offering the buy back on their "Green Car" the Chevy Volt that has a tendency of starting on fire even if not driven. And we thought the Pinto was a fire bomb. No one killed in one yet though.

We really don't have a fuel problem in this Country. We have a political problem when one little fish or some frog keeps people from having a better lifeis. Can't dig a well in Anwar (sp) a place that nobody would ever wish to go. Get government out of the way and our Capitalist system can and will fix our economy. The jobs are there.

Just another one of my hair brained thoughts. Agree or not, just my thoughts. 'Hub

[shark66]

Hub,

Many moons ago, in another lifetime where petrol was very expensive and owning a car with a large engine (over 2.0L - whatever number of cubic inches that amounts to) subjected one to taxation that by far exceeded the tax rate that started the original Boston Tea Party, I drove a small yet reasonably fast Citroen Turbo Diesel which was returning 45MPG (imperial) on the highway at 65-70mph. That was two decades ago. I'm dead certain that they've gotten even more economical over the given period of time.

I've always viewed the whole Ethanol thing as a scam, plain and simple.

Another thing that no one is talking much about here are vehicles powered by propane and/or similar liquid gasses which are a commonplace in certain parts of the Europe such as Italy. The main advantage is that almost any petrol/gasoline engine can be converted to run on propane in a matter of hours.

I'm not necessarily certain that electric cars are a bad thing per se, but they are far from being ready for any type of serious mass production.

Electric power...huh...in a country with so much water, why aren't there more dams?

That is likely the cleanest way of creating electricity...at least AFAIK.

My $0.02 only...

Good luck to us all.

[justbroke]

We were discussing the Prius and other electric cars the other day and how inefficient they are. We were discussing the problems with batteries and the fact that charging them was worse than using gasoline to power them. Combine that with the $10,000 or more premium to own a Prius, it would be 6-8 years before you'd realize the savings from using less gasoline.

It's unfortunate that politics gets in the way of progress; I guess that's why they call it Congress.

In the end, the population is not "serious" about anything but whatever is CHEAPEST. Marketing tries to make us feel guilty about carbon emissions but doesn't tell the whole story about just where the "power", for these new vehicles, comes from!

I'm going to go bury my head back in the sand.

[IamOld]

As Shark said, the some of the SAME (smaller) cars made by Ford and GM and sold here AND in Europe - like the Ford Fiesta - get far FAR FAR better mileage in Europe - like about 65!!!!!!!mpg - why? Because they use clean "euro" diesel engines (and admittedly manual shifts which Europeans prefer - as do I...) So- WHY aren't these cars sold here with these diesel engines?

BY the way, I'd love to have a Volt - electric cars are cool - and NO TRANSMISSION, no fluid for this, belt for that, gears grease, ugh stuff that costs money to fix!!!!

And Yes, I think we need nuclear, hydro as Shark said, and wind, etc etc etc. As matter of fact, today, I saw a wind farm in an unlikely place! It was cool.

[banca rotta]

The world either now has or will eventually have a problem with peak oil. As we keep using up all the cheap and easy to find oil or basically picking the low hanging fruit, we will then have to burn more energy to find less fuel and as always the politicians are making matters worse since a lot of the solutions such as the prius, volt or ethanol does nothing except make matters worse (and politicians richer).

We burn far more energy on the above solutions not to mention all the oil we use to make tires to go in the Chevy Volt or all the plastics we use.

We do have a problem with petro shortages but currently there are no solutions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwNgNyiXPLk

[AngelinaCatHub]

As I mentioned, a diesel does not necessarily have to burn petroleum. We can get oil out of coal and many other places. The batteries once spent on these toy electric cars (only because they are Scheeick(sp) to own) are a biohazard big time.

As mention corn will produce oil far more efficient than alcohol. Rather than use food for fuel, put the corn where it belongs into people. Soy beans etc. can but used if we insist on paying farmers to grow fuel.

I have a diesel tractor also, and when the wife is done with the peanut oil after fried chicken, we simply add it to the tractors fuel tank. After 200 hours I have to change five gallons of hydrolic fluid in the tractor. Into the tank and mow the grass. Think of the McDonalds source of fuel when they discard and PAY someone to take it away when they could sell it to a bio maker. You don't have to make bio diesel the oil will bur$n naturally in the engine. You do have to watch where you live as the cold would freeze it. In FL we have no problem with that. I mix mine with 50% diesel. YOU CAN STORE DIESEL FOR YEARS in a tank safely. You cannot store gasoline as it degrades and no one will allow you to store 500 gallons above ground by code.

Diesels are the way to go and if you have to have an electric car, how about a two cylinder' diesel kicker over the gasoline engine? They talk two side of their mouth using gas engine kickers in those hybrids. 'Hub

[GoingDown]

Hub,

Many moons ago, in another lifetime where petrol was very expensive and owning a car with a large engine (over 2.0L - whatever number of cubic inches that amounts to) subjected one to taxation that by far exceeded the tax rate that started the original Boston Tea Party, I drove a small yet reasonably fast Citroen Turbo Diesel which was returning 45MPG (imperial) on the highway at 65-70mph. That was two decades ago. I'm dead certain that they've gotten even more economical over the given period of time.

I've always viewed the whole Ethanol thing as a scam, plain and simple.

Another thing that no one is talking much about here are vehicles powered by propane and/or similar liquid gasses which are a commonplace in certain parts of the Europe such as Italy. The main advantage is that almost any petrol/gasoline engine can be converted to run on propane in a matter of hours.

I'm not necessarily certain that electric cars are a bad thing per se, but they are far from being ready for any type of serious mass production.

Electric power...huh...in a country with so much water, why aren't there more dams?

That is likely the cleanest way of creating electricity...at least AFAIK.

My $0.02 only...

Good luck to us all.

We tried to build a new dam here in Arizona and a flood of lawsuits from groups like The Sierra Club stopped us from doing it.

My old home state of Oregon is even tearing down some of its smaller dams in order to help the salmon.

I doubt there will ever be another dam built in this country.

Running cars on natural gas or something similar would be a great idea. We have a 200 year supply of natural gas in this country, and 200 years should give us some time to come up with something else. In the meanwhile we could stop importing oil from countries which hate us. It seems like a great idea to me, but I doubt we will do this either.

We are our own worst enemy at times.

[JackBondLove]

There are few problems with petroleum. The first is that it is fossil fuel that increases CO2 emissions, with all the problems with climate change. I suppose that if you think there is no issue with climate change, then you will never understand.

Next, there is the issue about being dependent on importing oil, which eventually goes to folks in Saudi Arabia who are at least a bit friendly to terrorists, or Hugo Chavez, or even the Russians (which I don't have problem with, but some folks do), etc. Of course, this could be fixed in part if we just open up oil exploration to everywhere, but folks in places like California and even your state, Florida, don't want it because of the chance of an oil spill (which seems to happen with regularity, such as recently in my Louisiana), and because of the delicate ecological situation in tundra Alaska (whose range is decreasing because of the climate change that you folks don't accept .. .ad nasueum.)

The oil sands of Canada are especially nasty because of the very high ratio of processing energy to product, which really blows a hole in the CO2 emissions - as well as the pipeline, in which a leak could harm the pristine aquifers in the Midwest (so much so that the very conservative governor of Nebraska is against the pipeline!)

Finally, there is the eventuality of Peak Oil, in which the all the easy to find resources get depleted, leaving only harder to find resources which require a lot of work and energy to develop. At some point the difficulty is so great that it costs more in fuel to produce fuel, at which time it's game over. A hundred years from now, our great grandchildren will all be using electric cars, and getting their energy from solar farms in the desert Southwest (or on their roofs) or windmills in the Great Plains - unless someone figures out how to genetically engineer algae to excrete fuel in a feasible way. Users of liquid fuel such as aircraft will use some plant based fuel source like ethanol.

[debee]

I went to the gas station this morning and asked for $5 worth of gas. The clerk farted and handed me a receipt.

[AngelinaCatHub]

There are few problems with petroleum. Yes, we are not free to use our own. The first is that it is fossil fuel that increases CO2 emissions, with all the problems with climate change. In the length of time the World has existed, we are but a second in that time. Change is going on for thousands and millions of years. Recorded history of man is only about six thousand years. Perhaps other species of man roamed even before the reptiles. I suppose that if you think there is no issue with climate change, then you will never understand. Nor would I believe it. Without CO2, no plant life would exist including algae. Plants breath CO2 and turn it into Oxygen. C. carbon atom, O, Oxygen times two atoms. Carbon is what you kind sir, is made of. Nitrogen is 90% of our atmosphere. By your analogy, nitrogen is also fertilizer so in theory our air could become a bomb.

Next, there is the issue about being dependent on importing oil, which eventually goes to folks in Saudi Arabia who are at least a bit friendly to terrorists, or Hugo Chavez, or even the Russians (which I don't have problem with, but some folks do), etc. Of course, this could be fixed in part if we just open up oil exploration to everywhere, but folks in places like California and even your state, Florida, don't want it because of the chance of an oil spill (which seems to happen with regularity, such as recently in my Louisiana), and because of the delicate ecological situation in tundra Alaska (whose range is decreasing because of the climate change that you folks don't accept .. .ad nasueum.) I agree: ad nauseum. I have no axe to grind with Russians or the Arabs. The Arabs seem to have a thing for us. Due to our chain to their oil, we pay for the weaponry which they no doubt buy from us, or the Russians. Years ago, all of Miami had solar water. Today, too much trouble. I am familiar with solar and for electricity it is quite inefficient until we make our uses of this electricity more efficient.

If we became more self sufficient, with what we have, and get Government regs and control off our back, the "Green" energy will come. Profit is not a bad incentive believe it or not. You go to work to rent your time for a profit called a wage. The guy at the Interstate exit holding a cardboard sign willing to work for food (or beer), will not give you a job. As far as oil spills, where is yours now? The Earth has a way of cleansing itself. Microbes eat oil. What if, let us say, one of these super earthquakes opens a whole oil pocket in the Gulf? Yes it would be messy now wouldn't it. It's called nature and would heal. If it would not heal, perhaps the next generation of animal/man would spin out of that as the dinosaurs are said to have been consumed by a tragedy. What replaced them??? Mammals and Man.

The oil sands of Canada are especially nasty because of the very high ratio of processing energy to product, which really blows a hole in the CO2 emissions - as well as the pipeline, in which a leak could harm the pristine aquifers in the Midwest (so much so that the very conservative governor of Nebraska is against the pipeline!) I remember these words before the Alaska pipeline long ago. The benefits actually improved the natural species by it's warmth.

Finally, there is the eventuality of Peak Oil, in which the all the easy to find resources get depleted, leaving only harder to find resources which require a lot of work and energy to develop. Yes, and as you mentioned, it would buy time to address those problems or even a new fuel making oil obsolete. At some point the difficulty is so great that it costs more in fuel to produce fuel, at which time it's game over. A hundred years from now, our great grandchildren will all be using electric cars, and getting their energy from solar farms in the desert Southwest (or on their roofs) or windmills in the Great Plains - unless someone figures out how to genetically engineer algae to excrete fuel in a feasible way. Users of liquid fuel such as aircraft will use some plant based fuel source like ethanol. Ethanol is quite inefficient (read above), but I'll give you the "what if" credit that in a hundred years we will have improved. Only a bit more than that time in the past, we use very little oil. It was coal then. The Titanic was powered by coal but all electric even in the kitchen. Stoves lights and heat was electric, yet the hand fed the boilers. No automation for the coalmen. (they must have been union.).

Jack my friend, we have crossed before several times. LOL. I know as a registered Democrat that I am right of conservative and I know you may be left of liberal. But, we can both agree on one thing, so far, we have a Country that we can tryst and disagree but still love each other as Americans. I respect your opinions, even though I don't agree with many.

I went to the gas station this morning and asked for $5 worth of gas. The clerk farted and handed me a receipt.

LOL.

'Hub

[Logan]

A bigger problem with CO2 emissions than global warming is the absorption of carbon into the oceans. Global warming will change the world but when the oceans hit their tipping point and the coral reefs begin to die then we are doomed.

[AngelinaCatHub]

A bigger problem with CO2 emissions than global warming is the absorption of carbon into the oceans. Global warming will change the world but when the oceans hit their tipping point and the coral reefs begin to die then we are doomed.

Logan my friend, have you ever burned a fish? Blackened, no? Carbon. Carbon is the basis for all living things. It's called charcoal in some cases. The Oxygen is combined with burning ergo, we burn carbohydrates, (got the carbo part?) with oxygen and get CO2. Trees now, actually derive food from air as well as the earth. It is photosynthesis. The result is the trees "waste" called Oxygen. The "wheel" of life goes around. If the coral dies, and much has, some other thing will replace it as nature does. If it is so essential, then we will be replaced by whatever the Earth shall provide. As a Christian person, I believe we will go onto the future just fine. When change comes it will be the Supreme Maker to make that decision. I do not believe that we have made a dent into the fate of our planet. If you have a gripe, address the Chinese who now owns Gary Indiana and Pennsylvania steel mills that we 'gave' them. The biggest polluter in our time.

So, all fire extinguishers should be banned. After all, putting out a fire that makes CO2 with CO2 would not be politically correct, would it? 'Hub

[Logan]

Well hub, when I die then I'm dead. I believe in no supreme being. It's funny that so many believe in a god that they've never seen yet they don't believe in global warming and that we cannot affect the world. Let's set off every nuclear warhead right now and see how we can affect the world.

[shark66]

Let's set off every nuclear warhead right now and see how we can affect the world.

Sounds like the ending of "Dr. Strangelove"...everyone gets

Whether one believes in a supreme being and/or global warming is really a non-issue here.

The fact of the matter is that we do need to lessen out dependency on foreign oil. That we need to work on alternative long-term sources of energy.

From all the sources imaginable: hydro, nuclear, natural gas, sun, wind...

None of that will happen as long as we have EPA in its current form.

So if the melting glaciers end up drowning us, thank the government...

Good luck to us all.