The American Dream no longer exists.

[robivi3]

What a thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This hit the core!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FilingOnMyOwn]

Yeah I'd been thinking of it for a long time. And it finally set in. Although the realization made me want to cry. The reality is, I have never had shit, will never have shit, and will never know what its like to have shit. So whats the difference? None I suppose.

[debtisbad]

I really do not know what the answer is. I think America is well on her way to being a 3rd world nation. Maybe not quite that far but we will be on par with the rest of the world. China's (and the rest of the world) wages in increase, as they already are having problems. USA wages will decrease. This would be alright if gas were 25 cents per gallon and one could buy a house for lets say 30k. Just to live today is totally out of skew.

[Jenny]

It takes a lot of little guys' paychecks to bring one rich guy even with the Median. And 2 filthy rich guys can skew the whole Median for a whole bunch of little guys. There's no half above and half below.

"Median" is a statistical term. It means the midpoint. It means that half of the samples are above that value and half are below. Whether or not you believe this is irrelevant. It's a mathematical fact.

Maybe you're confusing "median" with the distribution of wealth. In the US, a small percentage of people control the majority of wealth. That doesn't affect statistics regarding income and the median thereof.

[SinkingFast]

I really do not know what the answer is. I think America is well on her way to being a 3rd world nation. Maybe not quite that far but we will be on par with the rest of the world. China's (and the rest of the world) wages in increase, as they already are having problems. USA wages will decrease. This would be alright if gas were 25 cents per gallon and one could buy a house for lets say 30k. Just to live today is totally out of skew.

BINGO!! That's it exactly!!!

The higher paying telephone technical service rep jobs for Dell,.......... You never know when you dial that 800 phone number if you'll get a person in India, Taiwan, Japan, where ever in the world.

Yup. I saw on Suze Orman that 51% of working americans make less than 20k a year. Unreal. And the median income is like 40k right? Now it would be one thing if for every person who makes 20k, another makes 60k. Wrong! For every 25 people who makes 20k, theres one guy who makes a half mil. And even more realistically, for every 50 people who earn minimum wage, theres one dude that pulls 7 figures. The gap is just seriously out of control. Now I earn minimum wage myself, but its 6.40 in florida not the national pee-on 5.15. I am able to survive only because I have no debt, no kids, no bills other than rent and insurance and live with roommates. Having a family in this day and age is completely out of the question for me. And I'd rather work a job that I'm comfortable with, then go somewhere and absolutely slave for a dollar or two more an hour. Adjusted for inflation, the US minimum wage was at its highest point in the 1960's, equivalent to $12 an hour of today, or 25k a year. And back then you could live on it. Now I have to work 6-7 days a week sometimes. You know I would really love to go back in time, to before my time.

The manufacturing jobs here, in the city I live in,........... Major companies like Alcoa, Caterpillar, Fairfield, Isuzu-Subaru America,............ pay experienced people in the $15-$20/hour range to start. Without experience, you can't even get your foot in the door. What were yesterday's better paying "manufacturing jobs" are basically minimum wage jobs. That means minimum wage workers are really at and below the poverty level

I don't see how you do it, FOMO. Wal-Mart started our son out at $6.90/hour. He's had a raise and makes $7.50/hour now. Son groused about the raise being such a small amount. When we did %'s comparison and told him about Dad's 4% salary increase, he realized his raise wasn't so bad after all. He can't afford to live on his own. We feed/clothe/house him, own the car so he has no car payments, have made repairs on the car, and provide all his insurance. It takes everything he makes to buy gas, lunches, and pay his college bills. He in no way contributes to the household expenses.

My hat is off to you, FOMO, for living on your own with so little resources.

[tresjolie]

Americans are not accustomed to feeling worthless. We were brought up to believe in a certain ethic. Even the men who were employed in our Great Depression by the Public Works were the part of great enterprises like the Hoover Dam, the TVA, Golden Gate Bridge. Yes, they may have bought some votes and secured a generation at the Public expense but with ABSOLUTE justification. They took unemployed men, put them into enterprises for the public good and gave an entire generation a belief that America could bounce back and look even prettier and be stronger.

And yes, I know the argument, the war was a bailout, we would have still come back, slower, but still back.

Bold men like that are dead silent today, our universities don't produce that knid of thinking. I totally disagree with some of the methods of the past but I love the men who stood out like giants to lead the Country through dark times, whether they were of the same mind as me or not. I love them because they didn't succumb to polls and some like FDR, were even willing to face a possible revolution for pressing their programs. Men like that deserve for history to be kind to them because they stood strong in the face of opposition and ultimately moved the Country forward. GW ain't the guy, nor was Gore, nor Billy, nor GHW. I don't see anyone on the horizon either...

I totally disagree----those "bold" men sold our country out---gave away what was truly freedom in this country for socialistic programs. There is no justification to give away the very freedoms those who came before them died for in the name of buying some votes and securing a generation at the public expense? America, and the free market that it was, would eventually bounce back on its own. What a cop out----and what a price. We have been paying for it ever since with the IRS and Social Security and Medicare and so on. Just think what we would actually truly be making if those "programs" were not in place. There should have been a HUGE revolution and still should be but people are inherently lazy and love for the government to take care of them----and boy is it at a price. It is very sad and a huge insult to our true forefathers who founded this country.

[SinkingFast]

I totally disagree----those "bold" men sold our country out---gave away what was truly freedom in this country for socialistic programs. There is no justification to give away the very freedoms those who came before them died for in the name of buying some votes and securing a generation at the public expense? America, and the free market that it was, would eventually bounce back on its own. What a cop out----and what a price. We have been paying for it ever since with the IRS and Social Security and Medicare and so on. Just think what we would actually truly be making if those "programs" were not in place. There should have been a HUGE revolution and still should be but people are inherently lazy and love for the government to take care of them----and boy is it at a price. It is very sad and a huge insult to our true forefathers who founded this country.

I disagree. My parents lived it.

WPA. The joke was "We Piddle Around". Because people would loaf around a bit and collect the money without working so hard. But they were used to 12 hard hours in the field each day. Or 12 hard hours in the store, or on the floor of the shop, working 6 days a week. At least with the Government programs, they could still feel useful AND feed their families.

Our son played football in 2003 in a stadium built by WPA in 1933. It was classic. One of a kind. Quality construction that had stood the tests of time. That school has since built a new stadium and abandon the old one. I highly doubt the new stadium will last 70+ years like the old one did.

[tresjolie]

I disagree. My parents lived it.

WPA. The joke was "We Piddle Around". Because people would loaf around a bit and collect the money without working so hard. But they were used to 12 hard hours in the field each day. Or 12 hard hours in the store, or on the floor of the shop, working 6 days a week. At least with the Government programs, they could still feel useful AND feed their families.

Our son played football in 2003 in a stadium built by WPA in 1933. It was classic. One of a kind. Quality construction that had stood the tests of time. That school has since built a new stadium and abandon the old one. I highly doubt the new stadium will last 70+ years like the old one did.

My family lived it too----you will always have people who loaf around a bit and collect the money without working so hard---I see them in my office and everywhere I have worked. That is why those who work harder in a truly free economic system and take chances and build businesses do end up doing well for the most part WITHOUT the government subsidizing or setting up "programs" they warrant as necessary. Where does it end? Who decides who gets saved and who isn't saved? Chrysler gets a subsidy...what about the other car manufacturers? What about all the companies that aren't given a free hand out to stay alive? That is what a free market does....some are not supposed to----maybe they were mismanaged, obsolete, etc.
You do not need a Government program to feel useful and feed your family. That is what the churches were for...your neighbors....the government was not supposed to take money from everyone and dictate charity----or whatever else they dreamed up and spend your money how they deemed fit---not how you deemed fit. Most people do work very hard for what they earn and should be able to decide for themselves if they want to help Sally or John---are they truly in need or just looking for a handout--? What about all the other countries? I like to decide if I am actually helping someone who is helping themselves or just taking from the Government programs because it is there and they can.

[robivi3]

This has been a great thread, it has hit us at the core. The posts have ALL been excellent, non abusive and high quality. I am glad that certain "emotional responders" who haven't been in the forum for awhile are not active today.

By this time they would have called everyone here Rascist, bigoted, narrowminded. You know those inane personal attacks that they resort to when they cannot support an argument.

The truth is that alot of folks, Hispanic, Black Americans, Indian, Islander etc.... are concerned about the decline of the US. I know of very few Jamaicans, Colombians (Colombians in general have a hatred for Fidel Castro that is unparalleled and of the couple of hundred i know most vote Republican when they become citizens), Cubans, Puerto Ricans (especially) etc... who wish evil upon this Country. They are also concerned about the decline. I am taliking about the decent folks who emigrate from their Countries, not the flotsam that wants a free ride. And since we don't see each other we can't tell who is responding.

We have been able to disagree nicely here, that is one reason why this thread is so popular. I'll respond later to any of the posts, outta time for now!

[Minnymouth]

GOOD THREAD FOLKS,

LOTS OF good opinions, thoughts, and history of what our Nation is built on.... and how things have changed over the years.

Glad to see a discussion minus the heavy political view of "my way is the right way" only.....

We all know there is a problem arising in our Nation. How to solve it, no one is really sure - but we sure know and feel its existence.

I also agree if we are not carefull our Nation TOO will become a 3rd world nation fighting among themselves. It won't be the North against the South this time it will be nationality against nationality to see who is going to be dominate in the US. Hopefully this will NEVER HAPPEN, but it could very easily.

What tears other nations apart - can also tear this one apart if we let it.

Our United States is built on freedom for all, not just a chosen few or a certain nationality.
When you come to the United States you become Americans. Your nationality does not become ours! Your heritage intertwines with ours to make a great Nation called the United States of America.

Thanks for all the input folks,

Minny

[Jenny]

The United States is not headed to 3rd world nation status. What makes you think that? We have the most freedoms, the most opportunities. We are so far from 3rd world countries.

The national economy is very complicated. I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs. Does anyone here know all of them? I don't know where the dooms day thinking is coming from. I don't see things being nearly as bad as people have said here.

And keep in mind, I'll probably lose my job in the next year. I still think this is a great country with limitless opportunities and a great economy.

[robivi3]

Agreed on that Jen. All in all, we do have certain guarranteed freedoms. They are increasingly being taken though. Jefferson said it best "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance". In all honesty, government is the greatest roadblock to freedom. Most people are caught up in the "democracy" thinking which would have made James Madison vomit. We are a Republic, we hold a certain law to be above other laws, the Constitution is the law of the land, however in leaving us armed against an intrusive government the founding fathers recognized that true freedom has to be guarded.

They did not leave us armed so we could HUNT! Read TJ's quotes and L'il Jemmy's, they believed a little bloodshed would be necessary to protect the citizens over the years. "The well armed militia" thing has been overused, it was the least of Jefferson's quotes on private ownership of arms which was debated even then, especially in Europe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jenny]

What freedoms are being taken away? We have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, the right to go to school, the right to work toward any job, the right to save money, the right to have a family, the right to buy a house.

[HopeinHorizon]

Some of those rights you listed are unattainable in some parts of the country thats the point...

We do have the RIGHT to buy a house, but will the big corporations a lot of us work for pay us enough to exercise that right is the question???

[Jenny]

There is no law preventing someone from buying a house. That's what I mean. There is also no law requiring employers to pay employees a salary that allows them to buy the house they want.