The American Dream no longer exists.

[robivi3]

And the US has also declared itself insolvent afew times, technically bankrupt!

[Jenny]

Usa Is A-ok!

America is a wonderful place. How many of you have lived in other countries? I haven't, but I still think this is one of the best if not the best in the world.

You can do anything here. You can go to college, start a business, buy a house, buy a car, have kids, say what you want, protest, vote, move where you want. We have so many freedoms and opportunities.

The economy is not in ruins. Have you read about the Great Depression? That was bad. This isn't. Mortgage rates are still very very low. Salaries are good, and unemployment is really pretty low.

It's okay to be frustrated sometimes, but it's so far from hopeless.

[robivi3]

It is definitely the best, but when GM is cutting its workforce by 113,000 something is wrong. Yes, with GM but also with the fact that new plants will open overseas. There is alot right about the US but if we ignore or simplify the major problems we will permanently lose our edge on the rest of the world. We do not possess the capacity to produce a Saturn V Rocket here today let alone the fact that that generation of forward thinkers and leaders drawn to our shores from all over is gone. You can wear a red tie, it doesn't make you a Ronald Reagan. There are no Jack Kennedy's or Von Brauns today. We don't have an FDR to lead us through a depression, and i am a Republican.

The truth is we lost a great battle for the soul of America in the late 80's. Morality IS legislated, it has always been enforced or legislated by whoever is in power. We are losing an economic fight today. Emerging parts of the world will grow, pressure for resource will, consumption will grow and strain available resources.

I agree with you totally, things are not so bad that we should get depressed, unless of course we are the one who is unemployed and feeling helpless. For me the economy is great, I make over 30 bucks an hour and can't be fired or laid off, but it's at someones expense. And yes, my wife, step-mother, in laws all grew up in other Countries. The older ones are slowly going back now that they are retired, it is to expensive here. They will tell you that it is rough in South America DEPENDING, I have ALOT of relatives who absolutely don't want to leave there and are not rich.

We do live in the best country on earth, my Dad spent 4 years in the Pacific island hopping to defend it, my uncles to, and some more cousins were in Korea and Vietnam. I will defend our right to resources and even say America right or wrong but I will not say that in general "salaries are good". Miami Dade County the average single family home is about 375,000.00. Median family income is 35,777.00 according to todays Herald (this AM).

ALL in all as a Country we are beyond the Moral/Economic crossroad. We passed it in the 80's. The truth is we are bathed in filth and it will show in the fact that the further we decline morally the more will slip economically. The two are intertwined.

I know that this post is a little "helter skelter" but you can't divorce morality and TRUE PROSPERITY, they are wrapped up in the same ball.

[debtisbad]

Robi,

I agree with you--we are loosing our economic foothold. I have always had good jobs, but no more. I am going back to college in the fall. I started work tonight just to make some gas $$ at Target. You would not believe the caliber of people that were in the training class. Yes, there are jobs out there but the ones that pay are getting fewer and fewer. Target gave me a tour of their backroom. I noted everything mentally. Every product, I kid you not, said "made in china". I just think all of this is sad. Oh. I used to make more than 50k per year and so did husband. I now make 7.00/hr at Target.

Oh, and bank of america called my mil tonight and told her to tell me that "they can no longer help me".

[robivi3]

My Dad and my real mother always pointed out one thing about the depression, they believed things would get better. The factories may have been shut down but they WERE STILL THERE and the President was working to get them REOPENED. The Government was pumping money into some of the greatest, and they were and this is from a dyed in the wool anti-socialist right wing practically-libertarian-were-it-not-for-their-right -to-anything-stance-republican, social programs that ever existed. Most of which were employing folks in beneficial projects like Dam Building, the TVA, etc... That was legitimate work, not workfare and was beneficial to the Country.

The factories are GONE. The genius of giving people a chance to feel useful while technically unemployed is gone. Politicians may be crooked but don't forget that those guys grew up with a 19th Century mentality that realised that most people wanted to be useful. That type of thinking is gone (RE LEE was offered 100,000.00 for the use of his name on an Insurance Company, he was broke but refused saying I can't be paid for working). You can't Pollyanna this away, we are on a downhill slide. America is in deep doo-doo.

And be "frustrated sometimes"?! My dads generation was one of massive economic expansion in America, HIS grandchildren will have a difficult time achieving what he did even at the top of their game. I have what i have and pondered taking the Trustee's Attorneys life, I can't imagine what some of these folks are passing thru. The loss of a HOME!? Nothing destabilizes a family like that! Salaries are good!? For crying out Ma BEll & GM used to be our biggest employers, now it is freaking WAL-MART, an absolute sh*thole job! Forgive my French please all, but this just rankles me, not Jens post, but to think that a working country has sunk to this level.

[debtisbad]

Jenny,

We are far from hopeless. We just love our country and hate to see this downhill slide. The United States cannot prosper as a service industry country. We cannot prosper when Walmart is our largest employer. Our factories have left. The windchester rifle company that was an american icon for over 100 years has now left. Guess where they are made--China. Things cannot continue as they are now. Yes, we are in economic recovery mode, but this is a jobless economic recovery (whatever that means!)

[debtisbad]

And when I say we are in recovery mode, I am talking about all the jobs being created at Walmart, our largest employer!

[FilingOnMyOwn]

Exactly. We don't need MORE jobs, we need BETTER PAYING jobs.

[Minnymouth]

The days of the "high paying" jobs is becoming a thing of the past.....

Companies are downsizing, and cutting costs. And all this also includes wages, health and retirement benefits.
Many no longer offer healthcare or retirement unless you pay it.

Companies are shutting down, paying out severance packages instead of pensions, and then relocating somewhere else under another name. Thus avoiding the present high wages, health benefits, and retirement programs.

Same comany, different place and name....

Back in the 70's & 80's auto part plants moved from Detroit/Chicago/Ohio to South Georgia.... lower wages, no union, no benefits, no healthcare, etc.....

People that were once making good money are back to square one again..... like it or not....

The days of "min - wage" jobs is back and alive and well again............

[robivi3]

Americans are not accustomed to feeling worthless. We were brought up to believe in a certain ethic. Even the men who were employed in our Great Depression by the Public Works were the part of great enterprises like the Hoover Dam, the TVA, Golden Gate Bridge. Yes, they may have bought some votes and secured a generation at the Public expense but with ABSOLUTE justification. They took unemployed men, put them into enterprises for the public good and gave an entire generation a belief that America could bounce back and look even prettier and be stronger.

And yes, I know the argument, the war was a bailout, we would have still come back, slower, but still back.

Bold men like that are dead silent today, our universities don't produce that knid of thinking. I totally disagree with some of the methods of the past but I love the men who stood out like giants to lead the Country through dark times, whether they were of the same mind as me or not. I love them because they didn't succumb to polls and some like FDR, were even willing to face a possible revolution for pressing their programs. Men like that deserve for history to be kind to them because they stood strong in the face of opposition and ultimately moved the Country forward. GW ain't the guy, nor was Gore, nor Billy, nor GHW. I don't see anyone on the horizon either...

[Jenny]

I DID read all the posts about income and housing prices. You must have missed mine where I pointed out that you guys are focusing on median numbers. That means half is higher and half is lower. If you make less money than the median income, you have to buy a house that costs less than the median house price. Even while unemployment was high, housing sales were booming. You can do it. You have to set priorities.

I AM in a field and a situation where my job is being outsourced. I don't blame the company, the economy, the president, or anyone else. It's just the way it is. I'll have to find another job in another industry. Maybe I'll have to go back to school for retraining.

[robivi3]

Jen, it's the frustration of seeing our Country in a dive. Your post gave us a chance to vent. I am glad you took it like a trooper and din't over react. I understand your point and agree with you also but America is definitelly past a critical point and on a downhill slide. Still, I wouldn't live anyplace else. I lover her.

[robivi3]

And here's another kicker, what will they invemnt after outsourcing? labor is the one cost you can chop!

[SinkingFast]

I DID read all the posts about income and housing prices. You must have missed mine where I pointed out that you guys are focusing on median numbers. That means half is higher and half is lower. If you make less money than the median income, you have to buy a house that costs less than the median house price. Even while unemployment was high, housing sales were booming. You can do it. You have to set priorities.

I AM in a field and a situation where my job is being outsourced. I don't blame the company, the economy, the president, or anyone else. It's just the way it is. I'll have to find another job in another industry. Maybe I'll have to go back to school for retraining.

It takes a lot of little guys' paychecks to bring one rich guy even with the Median. And 2 filthy rich guys can skew the whole Median for a whole bunch of little guys. There's no half above and half below.

I wouldn't blame the companies. They gotta do what they can to maintain the bottom line.

The economy runs in ebbs and flows. That capitalism.

But when legislation is introduced and passed into law that hands our good paying jobs away on a silver platter by encouraging companies to outsource, there's a problem.

Our government is supposed to be of, by, and for the PEOPLE, not the interests of business.

Yes we are not an island in the world. But a little protectionism now and then is a good thing.

One of the smartest things Jimmy Carter ever did was loan Chrysler money. Lee Iacoca revitalized a faltering company with the cash giving birth to a vibrant competitor in the automotive industry. Without the Government's cash, no amount of marketing genius could have saved Chrysler.

[FilingOnMyOwn]

It takes a lot of little guys' paychecks to bring one rich guy even with the Median. And 2 filthy rich guys can skew the whole Median for a whole bunch of little guys. There's no half above and half below.

Yup. I saw on Suze Orman that 51% of working americans make less than 20k a year. Unreal. And the median income is like 40k right? Now it would be one thing if for every person who makes 20k, another makes 60k. Wrong! For every 25 people who makes 20k, theres one guy who makes a half mil. And even more realistically, for every 50 people who earn minimum wage, theres one dude that pulls 7 figures. The gap is just seriously out of control. Now I earn minimum wage myself, but its 6.40 in florida not the national pee-on 5.15. I am able to survive only because I have no debt, no kids, no bills other than rent and insurance and live with roommates. Having a family in this day and age is completely out of the question for me. And I'd rather work a job that I'm comfortable with, then go somewhere and absolutely slave for a dollar or two more an hour. Adjusted for inflation, the US minimum wage was at its highest point in the 1960's, equivalent to $12 an hour of today, or 25k a year. And back then you could live on it. Now I have to work 6-7 days a week sometimes. You know I would really love to go back in time, to before my time.