Post Bankruptcy - Doing OK, but the Anxiety!

[onwards]

I wonder how many of you folks came here before or during your bankruptcy proceedings, and then ended up staying and reading the forums and sometimes answering the questions afterwards.

In a brief recount, I filed in August 2009 and got discharged in December 2009. The filing came as a result of not being able to deal with the total meltdown in late 2008, which eviscerated my small business, coupled with one bank's refusal to accept any short sale offer for a property, basing their decisions AFAIK on my healthy finances prior to the meltdown. In the end, forcing me to file was a good thing; on top of letting me out of that house, it eliminated an additional $60K+ of credit card debt.

I kept my wife off the filing, since a lot of our debt was in my name only.

A year later, and several things have changed. First of all, we are legally separated now. Too much stress, I guess. I am helping her deal with her debt at present, and just paid off an $11,000 Chase CC for about $4,000.

I have not acquired new debt, thank goodness. Yes, i use credit cards, but I pay them off every month. Thus far it has been possible.

The primary house loan was renegotiated and then accepted for permanent HAMP. Yes, we still live together. We don't really have a choice; my credit is ruined, and hers isn't in great shape either, but in any case, there is no selling the house as it is deeply underwater. We're kinda stuck. Still, it's a big house, and we live in opposite parts of it, and since we are still on excellent terms, it is working out. It helps with the kids, too, as they are really happy to still have both mommy and daddy there (having seen what a couple of nasty divorces had done to a few of their friends). It was a little awkward to have her bring her BF home at first, but we all adjusted. I can't bring myself to do the same though, not yet, so I'm a little lonely. I'm sure it isn't contributing.

The HELOC I simply stopped paying in February. Sure, it has trashed her credit, but what can they do otherwise? nothing. So I'm not paying. it may get settled at some point, I hope. In the meantime, she started working again, and is slowly becoming self-sufficient, which is again a good thing.

On the business side, I actually had a banner year in 2010, with my business somehow recovering faster than I could ever hope for. It came in fits and starts, but it did come. I'm quite nervous about next year, though, as I cannot gain any sense of how deals are advancing. It just seems like the decision making process is completely erratic, pretty much everywhere. No one has any confidence. A client can give me every sign of acceptance, including verbal confirmation, and then in the last minute pull out with no explanation. It just happened right before Christmas.

And that's just it. On the face of it, while recovery from a BK event is never simple, from all I can tell it's going pretty well. This should be a positive, even celebratory story of recovery post-BK.

Yet the anxiety is killing me. Everywhere I turn, it seems like I am one step away from being destroyed - and this time, without any safety nets at all (not even BK). There is no unemployment insurance for self-employed; I won't even have access to that if I lose all my clients (as happened in late 2008). Not that it would help; the cost basis for living out here is far higher than almost anywhere else. Nothing feels real, or stable. I fret over everything, every little expense, even though it doesn't seem to make sense; I find myself sometimes bargaining another 20 minutes or spending another hour looking for an extra $5 discount when I normally make ten times that in those same 20 minutes. The thought in my mind is "yes, but who says you will have someone wanting to actually pay you? suuuuuure, when you DO work, it pays well, but...", and but, and but. It's driving me crazy, this fear. I never lived in so much fear. And cynicism. I am cynical about everything. Nothing feels even remotely solid. I lose more sleep now than I did before my filing, with this dreadful and never-relenting sense of disastrous anticipation. I literally work in order to keep sane, because any moment of rest is a moment full of anxiety.

So I find myself in the odd position of doing as well as I ever have, while feeling worse than almost any other time in my life. Am I losing my mind? help! (I know you can't, but any insight would be helpful)

[clevelandmom]

Dear Onwards,
I have been told that being in the sun too long can cause cancer. Yet, the minute that sun finally makes its way back to Cleveland in the late spring and the temps are warm, I'm out there - suntan lotion and all, catching those cancer rays. They say alcohol will destroy your liver - yet, when I feel stressed or at the end of a long week, I'll happily grab that glass of wine or appletini and let myself get loopy. I have been told crossing the street can kill you - yet, I do it all the time. My point is, there are "what if's" every day, all day, and if you live your life worried about "what if?" something happens, than you're not living at all, are you? You're waiting for the other shoe to drop constantly - but in the end, whatever is going to happen is going to happen. The only thing you can do to try to beat that "what if?" is to save your money. Period. Have your own, personal stash that no one knows about and make it grow. You can do it, one day at a time. But just live your life. I don't know if you are a man of faith or not, but at the end of the day, that's all we can really do. Have faith that everything will turn out alright. The most important thing to remember is this: YOU ARE NOT ALONE. Hang in there my friend and have a stiff drink. It's really all we can do.

[onwards]

Thank you Clevelandmom. I like your attitude :-)

As I was reading your note, it hit me that one of the chief factors in the anxiety is that I don't know exactly WHY I'm doing reasonably well. I can't explain it, it seems like sheer blind luck. Which means it can turn at any moment. I think that's the source of it. I keep reading about terrible, horrid stories of folks just like me who got unlucky, and really lost it all, and my heart goes out to them while at the same dreading that I'm next in line.

Stiff drink. Yes, doctor.

[shark66]

I'll repeat an old cliche: listen to your gut.

Don't wonder why you're doing reasonably well, well, or very well...

Enjoy the moment. Seriously.

Nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky...

Take it from someone who lost almost two decades of his savings in one day because he didn't listen to his gut...then got back on his feet, started all over and was doing very well for several years until he forgot what ignoring his gut's voice got him the first time around...

And that's why I'm here...for the most part anyway...

A stiff drink sounds like an excellent idea.

Have one for me.

Good luck.

[chrisdfw]

Breathe....

Start making your own safety net, I am also self employed (I have a job too, but because of the self employment I do not qualify for unemployment) and dependent on my clients, some of whom are having tight times. Pay yourself first, yes, before the credit cards, because you
don't have a safety net, cut back and put some money in a roth ira, beyond the reach of creditors and you'll start building a safety net, since you
can withdraw the contributions.

Just relax and work on it a little a time, and enjoy things while the sun is shining.

[onwards]

Shark66, thank you... I'd love to hear more about your story... seems like there is a shared theme there, to a degree. If you feel like sharing, of course. You're right about listening to my gut, it's just hard with all the noise *sigh*

chrisdfw, good comment, and I have started working on that. I am doing the "right things"; for example, I have now managed to save the entire tuition fee for my kids' school for next year already, which means I can pay it in cash in March, which means I am one year ahead of my previous timeline (where I used to pay in monthly installments). That has reduced stress to some degree, because if worst comes to worst, I have a year and $40K worth of breathing room in a sense. It's not exactly a rainy day fun but it can be used as such in a pinch. I'm trying, as much as I can figure things out anyway, but the anxiety is relentless. I think there must be some resident post-traumatic shock from the filing itself *sad smile*

[OHBOY]

I have read your post with facination. Please allow me to comment and to be straight forward with my thoughts..:
Quite frankly... personally, I could not handle your situation... big house or not. Do not think that it's 'kosher', and does not set a good example for the kids to see mom come home with boyfriend, while dad is living under same roof... sorry, call me 'old fashion'..., but just seems that somebody has to move.

Considering your marital status, the way I see it , if you are concerned about your financial future, why would you pay off her CC cards instead of trying to build a nest egg for yourself (unless it's part of the legal separation agreement).
You mentioned that you left your wife off the bk filing. I would think that it was totally up to her to join you in bk or not to...

I honestly can say that given your circumstances I know I would be a wreck, and I too would work my butt off to just try and stay sane. At the same time I would set a goal to bring about some personal changes in my life. For starters, along with that 'legal separation', I would look for separate living quaters.....that, or reconciliate with the wife ...IF you think there is anything left to salvage (after the boyfriend learns where the exit door is).

My sympathy is with you.......I have experienced my share of marital problems in my lifetime, and I think having a stiff drink will not solve any of your troubles & will not ease the avalanche of emotions, which BTW sound quite normal given the described circumstances.
Take care of yourself.......

[onwards]

Ohboy, thank you for your comments and perspective. For what it's worth, the home front is really a minor issue at best, I'm pleased enough with how things turned out in our separation, to be honest. I've seen so many ugly ones, that to find that we can handle ours maturely and not find it impossible to stand each other's presence - let alone stay solid, good friends - felt like a major achievement. In many ways, I'm proud of us, even if the setup presents its own unusual challenges. Necessity is the mother of invention. But no, there is no chance or interest in reconciliation. I'm not really sure about why this would be any more confusing to the kids than a "traditional" divorce, to be honest; at least this way they get to have both mom and dad close by working jointly to ease the transition. It's not like if we lived alone her BF wouldn't come by... heck, this way we actually pay a lot of very active attention to the kids' well-being in all regards, more so than I think either of us would otherwise. And I get a lot more participation from him than I ever would, and he actually has to work at being near and dealing with my kids, all of which matters to me a great deal because in the end, they are my main concern. Having seen his approach to all this, I've grown to respect and subsequently like the guy. Yes, it's interesting to say the least, but I've never been one for tradition, so maybe that's it.

As for the BK - I suppose you're right, technically, but to be honest, my ex never dealt with our finances so she never really dealt with the BK either. It made sense to keep her out, so I kept her out; she simply did what I suggested. I am happy to help her figure out her way forward, she's still the mother of my kids, someone I care about, and a very good friend. I think the best description we have come up with is that we somehow transitioned from spouses to siblings :-) and from a fairness perspective, the debt WAS acquired jointly, and even though legally I am not bound to it because of the discharge, morally I owe her the assistance. It would really suck for me to just say "oh, ha ha, screw you" and leave her with it, forcing her to go through her own BK under circumstances much less favorable than when I did mine. I'd be such a jerk. I hope I'm better than that, as a human being. There are two more CC companies to deal with, and that HELOC, but I think she can settle with all of them (the divorce combined with my discharge makes it so; when she let Chase know the situation, they immediately settled) and I will feel much better about myself if we are both debt-free (except for the house) once this is done. Moneywise, another $25K (which is what i estimate it will all cost in the end) for a lifetime of having a good relationship and being satisfied that I did the right thing for the person with whom I chose to raise my family - even if things didn't work out in the end - as well as my kids hopefully their parents treat each other kindly, even lovingly, maturely and with respect even following a split, seems like a pretty gosh darn small price to pay. Shoot, their school costs more than that every year. And with ALL that said, I DO intend to leave at some point, just not soon :-)

And now I find myself staring awkwardly at all that i just wrote and wondering if it even makes sense to post it in these forums. At least I chose "general talk" *sigh*

[OHBOY]

Sorry .... I don't understand how all is just great, and how the 'home front is really a minor issue at best'....I just don't see how it's in the kids best interest to learn to accept a sort of communal/group living arrangement......but,whatever.... just my 80yrs of living perspective that it seems to be some sort of 'Californian Airhead' outlook...(please forgive me I certainly DO NOT INTEND TO BE DISRESPECTFUL IN ANY WAY.. just an expression that I use when I hear of something that I deem 'weird').

I just think that you and your wife can have an amicable relationship without allowing the coexistance/living arrangement with the boyfriend in the picture & under the same roof.

as to "Moneywise, another $25K (which is what i estimate it will all cost in the end) for a lifetime of having a good relationship and being satisfied that I did the right thing for the person with whom I chose to raise my family ..." seems ludicrous to me, especially while you are stating that you fear the possibility of future financial woes for yourself.

Instead it seems that the realization that 'a lifetime of having a good relationship' might be a good foundation/ warrant that closer look at reconciliation ( that is unless something the like of sexual gender preferences have brought about the break up of the marriage).
Again...I EMPHASISE THAT I DO NOT WISH TO BE DISRESPECTFUL IN ANY WAY (just voicing my thoughts..), but I am wondering if having control/being in charge at all cost is not part of the overall problem here, while the wife is
'letting loose'/acting 'independent' for the first time, in the only way she knows how....(?)
...I said, this way intruiging to me, so forgive the rambling comments. I do wish you the best !

[onwards]

Ohboy, no worries; I wouldn't have posted if I thought I would get offended by what anyone says. I find that it is always best to hear different viewpoints, regardless of what I think. That's part of learning and growing. I appreciate your words (truly). As for California airhead... I'll take that, I do think the mentality out here (especially where I am, in the SF bay area) is a lot more progressive than in most parts of the world. But it's exactly why I live out here, too, so it works out in that sense. I sure do "get it" as to it sounding weird. Heck, you should hear the talks I have with my parents about it.

Anyway, like I mentioned, realistically, our options are quite limited at present due to the state of the real estate market, our credit, lending and the economy in general.

And I wanted to say: thank you so much for challenging me in this way. It actually helps a lot, because it forces me to think about things which takes away some of the bite of anxiety. That, in and of itself, has been a help (even if completely unexpected). But I do promise you, no reconciliation is in the cards, I just don't have a sense of ownership of her. Think of it this way: I am "over it", and therefore don't care less as to who she sleeps with, except in the sense that whoever she is dating ends up having an impact on my kids. As such, I see the ability of being able to see their interaction on a much closer basis during this transition as a benefit. In a couple years when everything has been sort of figured out and they have had a chance to process it would be a lesser worry, and also timing-wise we should be more able to figure out the next step. Does this make any kind of sense? (whether you agree or not)

[OHBOY]

Hmmm....Yes, we disagree on a lot of issues....I don't think one should ever have a sense of 'ownership' of ones spouse.

Anyhow, there is one other 'thing' that crossed my mind: if my wife under the circumstances that you described (being legally separated & living living together) brought home her boyfriend, I would feel as though 'all bets are off' and I probably would pursue getting primary custody of the children, and I have a good idea that even the most liberal San Francisco judge would 'see the picture'.

But, there is no sense in me to continue putting my 2 cents in, I have an idea that your parents are doing a good job at doing just that in a desperate effort to have you see the 'light'.

Keeping in mind that parents usually have nothing but the best in mind/and heart pertaining to their children (incl. adult children) and grandchildren, it would probably be wise to heed their advice.......(ha, that's an ongoing old story that sure applies to many...my own kids included...).
Take Care !

[clevelandmom]

For the record, Onward, and with absolutely no disrespect to Ohboy, I commend what you are trying to do for the sake of your kids. I am far more of a traditional person like Ohboy, and don't believe an ounce of me would allow my spouse to have his "girlfriend" live in our house, but the fact that you get along so well and are amicable to each other means SO MUCH MORE to those kids than the "living arrangements." I am positive that 2 people who are seperated and living apart who DON'T get along would have a much more negative impact on the kids than 2 people who are NICE to each other and living in the situation you are. Best of luck and blessings to all of you.

[onwards]

Thank you Clevelandmom. Yes, that's the basic rub isn't it? no acrimony - in the real sense of "no" - is what I feel matters here. The rest is merely circumstance driven by the times, which was really the point I was making in the first place :-)