Would you want IRS to take out your appendix?

[simplicityof]

....
All that above said, bk is a tool of God and our Forefathers....

My thoughts are, if Govmint works this way with MY money, why would I trust the same with Health care? 'Hub

You seem to be very selective about when government is just government and when it's a tool of God. I really don't see bk as anything other than a well tuned aspect of good government. Suppose health care reform as a work in progress turns out to be a gift from God? Particularly when it comes to YOUR money?

[onwards]

Do they have to worry about billing issues in countries that provide health care to all citizens?

Don't know about all of them, but I can tell you about the one I come from.

In Israel, health insurance is paid via a 5% tax on gross income. Everybody pays it, and it gets taken out of welfare and pension payments too (essentially one govt dept paying the other for accounting purposes).

This provides for a basic level of healthcare, similar to many HMOs in the US. It does not cover all treatments, and many people choose to also pay extra (typically $50-$100 a month) for private insurance that extends coverage to things like offshore transplants (otherwise you may well die before you get high enough on the liver transplant list under the national plan, for example).

Regardless, both of these options provide coverage with no personal contributions except for certain items. ER visits usually require some out of pocket expense up to $100 per visit. This is completely the opposite of here, because ER abuse is strongly discouraged due to ER being so expensive; if the ER visit turns out to have been truly warranted as determined by the hospital staff the fee will then be covered by the national program. You are typically expected to go to your doc unless it is a true emergency or you can afford to luxury out of pocket (note that incomes in Israel are about 40% of those in the US, and taxes are higher, so adjust mentally).

Certain specialists will also charge you a fee on top as well. Medications have a copay, although it's small, but some medications are simply not covered and you have to pay for them out of pocket. An independent panel comprised of healthcare experts decides annually what new medications and treatments get covered based on proven efficacy, and it's extremely rare that you run into a serious gap, but when it happens you're either rich or screwed, although you can always appeal and might end up with a special authorization in certain cases.

Lastly, you can always "skip" the lines to get treatments like non-life-saving surgeries faster or deal with top specialists by paying them under the table. It's a well-known element of the system that, while frowned upon, is not strictly enforced. It developed naturally and essentially addresses the rich/poor gap; if you can afford to "pay extra" then you can get ahead of others who cannot. The biggest issue with this is that these payments tend not to be reported as well as they ought to be, but the Israeli tax authorities are scary vigilant (the IRS are cute lil' puppies compared to those guys) and their power is incredible, so messing with them truly does come at your own peril.

[AngelinaCatHub]

You seem to be very selective about when government is just government and when it's a tool of God. I really don't see bk as anything other than a well tuned aspect of good government. Suppose health care reform as a work in progress turns out to be a gift from God? Particularly when it comes to YOUR money?

I strongly disagree. Whether you wish it or not, our Country was brought about by the Judeo-Christian ethic. Many migrated here for freedom of Religion, and freedom from Religion. Our forefathers gave us forgiveness of financial sins in the bk privilege. This was directly out of the Bible, and there is no debtor's prison in this Country.

When I talk about Govmint, I do not mean the original concept. I mean the perversion we are in now. The States were to be free agents with their own law, and the Federal was there to protect all of the States as in war. Now the Federal Government is micro managing us to the individual. Every law they pass, takes a bit of freedom from the States and you. Rules, regulation, laws, zoning, codes, levies, taxes, service fees, user fees, all inhibit your freedom and take a bit of your life. Money represents your time and talent. You work an hour, you get a trade unit called money. When taken from you to give to another, it is theft plain and simple.

You are not free to kill someone, that is a good law. You are free to defend yourself including the killing of someone. Two different meanings. One is murder, the other is defense.

Our current Government considers the Constitution an object in their way.

It is my opinion. I'm not likely to change it. However I will fight for the right of you to have your own opinion, even if I abhor what it is. You have a right to it. You have a right to be religious or Atheistic or secular.

I do not believe in being forced into a social controlling plan as the regime is planning. I can bk or not as I wish. I need not purchase auto insurance of I do not want it. I just don't drive the car. How dare anyone state I can go to jail on the word of IRS if I don't purchase health-care?

"Don't Tread on me".

[WhatMoney]

I do not believe in being forced into a social controlling plan as the regime is planning. I can bk or not as I wish. I need not purchase auto insurance of I do not want it. I just don't drive the car. How dare anyone state I can go to jail on the word of IRS if I don't purchase health-care?

You don't want to pay car insurance - don't drive a car (there are alternatives).

You don't want to pay for your health insurance - then you should not be treated for any illness or emergency - without an UP FRONT cash payment for the full estimated cost of the treatment. Seems fair enough. You agree with that Hub? You can't just give up living like giving up driving.

What would you do if you had a heart attack or cancer again and had no health insurance, because you didn't want to pay for it. You would expect to be treated anyway, and then screw the doctors and hospitals by not paying and declaring BK instead. That is an immoral position - not very Christian-like to screw your neighbors.

The problem with everyone having a choice about health insurance or not is the young and healthy would take the risk and not pay for it. That would leave only the sick and old buying health insurance - and the premiums would be astronomical. The insurance company would go out of business without many healthy members, just like auto insurance companies could not survive without the good accident free drivers. It is the most basic concept behind insurance. Your attitude of "no thanks, it's my choice" makes insurance costly for everyone else. You don't want health insurance, then you better believe in faith healing - because that's all you should get.

Driving is to auto insurance as living is to health insurance. Get it?

Israel has a reasonable system, like all other civilized countries in the world except the United States.

[justbroke]

Driving is to auto insurance as living is to health insurance. Get it?

Only one is currently compulsive -- in most States -- and the other is not. I don't think living requires health insurance. It only requires the means to pay for your healthcare. Automobile insurance, on the other hand, is compulsive.

Now, if the healthcare bill is passed in the House form, yeah, healthcare will become compulsive and "living" would indeed required, healthcare.

[WhatMoney]

Only one is currently compulsive -- in most States -- and the other is not. I don't think living requires health insurance. It only requires the means to pay for your healthcare. Automobile insurance, on the other hand, is compulsive.

Forget about the laws for a moment. Auto insurance for everyone makes good sense, especially the mandatory property and medical liability. Who wants to be hit by an uninsured driver? The uninsured raise the costs for everyone else.

Health insurance for all makes good sense for the same reasons.

You can drive without car insurance - you can live without health insurance. Both are socially irresponsible actions that raise the cost for those with insurance.

And in the case of health insurance, it is the uninsured that are crowding the ER's for routine care at extreme cost, and not paying the bill, making medical costs and insurance premiums higher for everyone else. If everyone was insured the ER's could go back to handling emergencies, and the preventative care from a primary care doctor would prevent many of the conditions that when untreated end up in the ER. Universal health care would save money and lower premiums. That the US Congress conservatives fights this is why US health care is the most expensive in the world, and yet only 37th in positive outcomes.

The Republicans have no health plan. Selling across state lines and tort reform, while keeping pre-existing conditions assures only higher premiums and higher profits for the insurance companies. That is their "health reform" proposal. What a joke.

[justbroke]

Forget about the laws for a moment. Auto insurance for everyone makes good sense, especially the mandatory property and medical liability. Who wants to be hit by an uninsured driver? The uninsured raise the costs for everyone else.

I wasn't trying to argue on whether having compulsory insurance was a good thing or not, whether auto or health. Just that compulsory insurance doesn't exist for the latter, except in States like Massachusetts. By the way, I have coverage for uninsured drivers and under-insured drivers. So, I don't really care because there are "under-insured" issues as well.

You can drive without car insurance - you can live without health insurance. Both are socially irresponsible actions that raise the cost for those with insurance.

No, one is illegal. The other is just a choice. There is nothing irresponsible about not having health insurance! When I was younger, I didn't "require" health insurance as I've never broken a bone, was never sick in 12 years of grade school (and no absences!), and didn't see the cost of insurance as justifiable. If I had fallen ill, I would have paid. That doesn't make it irresponsible at all. Now, if you're really into the "social" aspects, then you're saying is that it's irresponsible because I'm not paying into the insurance pool, even though I'm likely to a.) never file a claim, and/or b.) file very few claims and contributing gobs of money to the pool. (For full disclosure, I carry insurance because I have 2-stepchildren and a wife who need insurance more than I do or ever did. It costs me, now, $617/month. We use about $1.4K worth of services a year.)

And in the case of health insurance, it is the uninsured that are crowding the ER's for routine care at extreme cost, and not paying the bill, making medical costs and insurance premiums higher for everyone else.

This can be mitigated through the use of free clinics that are actually open 24/7 and funded by Federal/State dollars. If you actually look at most reports, including PWC's 2006 report, you'll see that increased healthcare is caused 57% by inflation and price increases, and 43% for utilization due to increased consumer demand, new medical
treatments, and more intensive diagnostic testing due partially to the practice of defensive medicine. An aging population and increasingly unhealthy lifestyles were also contributors. (Source: The Factors Fueling Rising Healthcare Costs 2006, Price Waterhouse Coopers.)

Kaiser's report says that wealthier countries... spend more on health care technologies, the U.S. population is getting older and disease prevalence has changed, and insurance coverage has increased, for example.

I don't read anywhere it reads "it is the uninsured that are crowding the ER's for routine care." I looked at two independent and respected places for that information while doing an analysis on billing, coverage, utilization and process for the VHA.

The Republicans have no health plan.

Actually, they do, if you listened to Obama's retreat with Republican members of Congress. It was televised and a very good exchange. I think the President held his ground well, but the truth came out about the plan.

Selling across state lines and tort reform, while keeping pre-existing conditions assures only higher premiums and higher profits for the insurance companies. That is their "health reform" proposal. What a joke.

I'm sorry, they have a plan or they don't have a plan?

If you take a serious look at the pre-existing conditions issue, it becomes mutually exclusive with universal healthcare. I didn't understand it earlier, but now I do after actually reading and listening to the President's retreat with the Republicans. The issue is that if you have the pre-existing conditions clause, you must implement mandatory coverage, otherwise people (otherwise healthy like me) would not have coverage and just wait until they got sick. This would dilute the pool. I still don't see how, after this was actually explained by the President, that you could pass the current healthcare bill without the absolute universal coverage, because without it, the premiums would go up, not down, for those participating (those that have healthcare).

It's a tough issue. I personally think that you can do this in pieces, while maintaining sanity. While not popular, I'm for single-payer... only because I don't see anything but a lower mortality rate for "actual" government run hospitals and medical facilities (other than the VA). It's just a bureaucracy thing really, but if you want actual Government facilities, look no further to the VA to see what a true Government run healthcare system will look like. (And before I'm challenged on the VA, I've done extensive consulting in this area, and with the VAs, and you only need to look at the GSAs various reports on the topic, including, but not limited to VA Health Care: Ineffective Controls over Medical Center Billings and Collections Limit Revenue from Third-Party Insurance Companies GAO-08-675 June 10, 2008.)

Please don't equate what I just posted as being anti-healthcare, pro-Government run healthcare, or anything like that. I'm saying it's complex, and unless you've read all the gory detail, have worked in healthcare (from both payer and provider side), have been to more than one VAMC, and/or have lived without healthcare while needing and postponing basic healthcare services, then the issue will be clouded.

[momisery]

The run on ER's has been increasing for about 20 years now. Most hospital are building bigger ER's and the two in our area are discussing ways to stop the "abuse". Before I move to the midwest again, I lived out west. They had HMO's and it was affordable coverage. You have to pay something out of pocket as to not abuse I have been told, but when you are paying high premiums and out of pocket, you might as well dress in rags and go to ER because you can not afford it. The median income in Springfield MO is less than 40,000.00 and still dropping. Most incomes are dropping yet the cost of a hospital room here is more than you would pay for a room with John Hopkins a far better hospital, but a non-profit one. The doctors incomes keep going up out of line with incomes for the middle class wage earners. We can not support our defenseand defend half of the rest of the world, the whole worlds needs, our disasters, address our downturns and still expect people who are losing purchasing power to be able to afford healthcare. This is not like "price" controls by competition, there isn't anyone able to compete. And this item is not a dress that you can buy at Walmart of Dillards.. we are talking about lives. The republicans are doing nothing but refusing to agree with the other party but holding fast ot their partyline when it is in office, while the democrats are scattered all over not sure of how they want to vote. This issue should have waited until the got the economy fixed. I think the right would have followed them if Obama was right about the economy. But he has not put too many chinks in his own armour and the other party will be back in and they did nothing when they were in either. We need to get over the left and right.. we need to get some people in office that care about our country. True our country has changed since our forefathers and I am here to thank them for having the knowledge that we would have to make changes. But we no longer change for the better anymore. Now we change to help China because big business owns our government.. we are a multi-national corporate owned country. We need to fight this and bring our life style back home before it is too late, and neither right nor left will do that.. Time for them to leave Washington and take their desire for power with them. Our forefathers had the insight to see that our nation was about everyone having a opportunity so we would all be willing to do our best. They made sure even the poorest child could afford to go to school which made us surpass every other nation. Today, we all fight about society as if we and our families and friends are not society. We hate government and yet the government is US.. if we take control it will be. right now it is a place that makes laws for the highest bidder.. we need to change that, not fight with each other.

[banca rotta]

Good question hub. I'm actually tired of even debating this one.

I say give "them" their free healthcare, let them use it at their own risk, let the USA default and those that wanted the healthcare in the first place will be dumpster diving.

Hopefully us mean spirited "kooks" will be in position to avoid what's coming.

[simplicityof]

I do not believe in being forced into a social controlling plan as the regime is planning. I can bk or not as I wish. I need not purchase auto insurance of I do not want it. I just don't drive the car. How dare anyone state I can go to jail on the word of IRS if I don't purchase health-care?

"Don't Tread on me".

I don't think a judge will agree with you if you demand that a BK is your right. However you can sink your chances of a successful bk if you so wish.
.
.
You can go to jail also for not paying school tax. Where would we be if our neighbors refused to take advantage of public education? Actually some don't(intellectually), but they still pay regardless. Even families who send their children off to private school benefit from being surrounded by literacy in daily life.

I've been hearing the same threatening language up in my neck of the woods also about paying into healthcare or else. I can thank our local Clear Channel affiliates for that.

[lovebirds]

Health insurance is what drives up prices. When I was little, we went to the doctor when we were sick or had a broken arm. Not the emergency room. He patched us up and the cost was approximately $40-$80 per visit depending on blood tests and x rays. That is less than most people's co-insurance. So for a lot of Americans who haven't worked for big companies, they've never had health insurance. Health insurance is something you get when you are very poor or very old. When you can't afford bills.

But to the question asked..."Would you want IRS to take our your appendix?"

If my appendix was ruptured, I would want anyone with a sterile knife to cut it out. Beats keeping it in. BTW...My grandfather was in the hospital with a ruptured appendix and they left it in for 2 days. I am not impressed by hospitals these days.

[AMISLANDER]

Short story. I owe IRS many K's of bucks. I pay $400 a month. I was told, it will go to the oldest year automatically when I pay online. Nope, it went to the current year. One call, and they fixed it.

So, 2004 I owed $72.00 and the other years went up from there. December, not to screw up my bookkeeping, I paid the $72.00 and nothing more. Christmas and all that stuff I gambled to slip by and just pay the next month.

Received my monthly statement, and they credited my account into 2005, $400.00. Well, I don't think I'm obligated to inform them of their poor bookkeeping practices.

My thoughts are, if Govmint works this way with MY money, why would I trust the same with Health care? 'Hub

The IRS has been getting my tax return $ since 2007. I'm hoping to be done with them the end of the year. They direct withdraw my money. UGH!!

[AngelinaCatHub]

Good question hub. I'm actually tired of even debating this one.

I say give "them" their free healthcare, let them use it at their own risk, let the USA default and those that wanted the healthcare in the first place will be dumpster diving.

Hopefully us mean spirited "kooks" will be in position to avoid what's coming.

Get your year's supply of food, plenty of ammunition to swap and defend. The worst is yet to come.

We cannot keep our society without a viable means of trade. The dollar is being corrupted and will soon be worthless. I see a bad moon rising. Tell me in a year if I'm wrong.