Better said than not...

[momisery]

To clear up gun ownership, I have two 45 colts, a 45 marlin lever action, and a pump action winchester 12 gauge... that I use about every two weeks. I have other guns too, but those would be my favorites. And I don't like Randi or any of them. I think they are what is wrong with our nations voice, mind and heart. I never have see a decade in time where so much hate festered. Elections use to be Red White and Blue, once someone got in you support him as best you could, they didn't spend the next two years trying to destroy someone so the other party could get in. I disagree with these policies and I do believe they will ruin us as a united country.

[AngelinaCatHub]

To clear up gun ownership, I have two 45 colts, a 45 marlin lever action, and a pump action winchester 12 gauge... that I use about every two weeks. I have other guns too, but those would be my favorites. And I don't like Randi or any of them. I think they are what is wrong with our nations voice, mind and heart. I never have see a decade in time where so much hate festered. Elections use to be Red White and Blue, once someone got in you support him as best you could, they didn't spend the next two years trying to destroy someone so the other party could get in. I disagree with these policies and I do believe they will ruin us as a united country.

Gawd, I believe I'm in love. Mom, you have won this dispute (RE: Constitutionalism). Just how do we get rid of Mrs. body? LOLOL

A VERY well thought out argument. I have no reply, account, response, retort, rejoinder, riposte, comeback, reaction.

You did good. My 'bippy' has been whacked down.

I/we wish you and yours a very great, and Happy New Year.

'Hub and Mrs. C.

[WhatMoney]

There is no amendment that says anyone has a right to health care. In this Country, we have the greatest health care in the World. No one lacks for life saving procedures.

There is no amendment that says you have the right to a flue shot either, or the right to board an airliner, or the right to own an automobile or a television. Gee, what was wrong with those Constitutional authors, to not foresee the world as it would be 200 years later? A 28th amendment requiring health insurance? You would still complain.

The fact is all CIVILIZED modern nations today DO say all their citizens have a right to health care. Only the USA is treating 15-20% of their citizens like they lived in a poor third world country.

"Greatest health care in the world" - only for those that can afford it. And most today even with health insurance in the US, cannot afford it if they actually get seriously sick.

Here are some facts:

The US pays twice as much yet lags behind other wealthy nations in such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy. Currently the U.S. has a higher infant mortality rate than most of the world's industrialized nations.

The USA's life expectancy lags 42nd in the world, after most rich nations, lagging last of the G5 (Japan, France, Germany, UK, USA) and just after Chile (35th) and Cuba (37th).

The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).

A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries.

According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the United States is the "only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance).

The same Institute of Medicine report notes that "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States," while a 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found a much higher figure of more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States due to Americans lacking health insurance.

More broadly, the total number of people in the United States, whether insured or uninsured, who die because of lack of medical care was estimated in a 1997 analysis to be nearly 100,000 per year.

(I'm not providing the original references this time, using the JRScott rational that "many on this board don't accept legitimate sources", and to "Do Your Own Research".)

[BobMango]

...
The fact is all CIVILIZED modern nations today DO say all their citizens have a right to health care. Only the USA is treating 15-20% of their citizens like they lived in a poor third world country.

..."Greatest health care in the world" - only for those that can afford it....

Here's what really gets me going. Some people seem to think that a "right" means the government has to give it to you for free. How the heck did that thinking come about?

Yes, I have a right to keep and bear arms. Does that mean the government has to pay for my gun? And if they don't are they violating my rights?

We have a right to a free press. Again, does the government have to provide the tools necessary for me to run a newspaper, or print flyers or develop a web page, etc?

I agree that healthcare should be affordable. There are many reforms that can help to increase access and reduce cost without this transmogrified horror of a healthcare bill our Gov't is working on now.

WhatMoney, as to the statistics you quote I won't quibble with them, but do want to point out a few misconceptions. Good healthcare does not guarantee good health. In the United States we have become sedentary and obese. I posit that these factors will override the best healthcare system in the world. The fact is that you cannot define a casual link between the quality of healthcare available and the mortality rate of a population when comparing first world countries. There are always other factors that will skew the results and it's impossible to run any kind of ethical studies to isolate those factors. (See Tuskeegee Airmen for a bad example)

Bottom line is that you can cite all the statistics that say we're overpaying for our health care system but you won't convince me that this leads to a logical conclusion that health care is a right and that the government should provide it to me for free, (or force others to pay for it for me.)

[momisery]

Cat, I need to fill you in on something.. I am not a mom... The name is MOMISERY.. meaning I am miserable in Missouri.. lol And I don't feel i won or lost, I feel I stated MHO and I do hope others find themselves in the words, but if they do not that is fine too. So, now that your are impressed I guess I can mention I shot my first real gun not counting a BB gun at age 8 going after gophers for my Dad. I am a pretty good shot, and I do competitive shooting. What really bugs me is hubby was a marksmen and a democrat. We are members of shooting clubs, but will not join the NRA because they are a bunch of right wing wackos. They spoon fed the public to buy guns and ammo because Obama will stop gun ownership. I had people asking for my advice about buying a gun that didn't know you had to buy bullet seperate. I see a lot of people being hurt by this sort of nutty panic, and by the dumping of guns back on the market now that the scare is over and they have all come to their senses and want to unload their guns. Now, our guns are worth much less, and who knows who will end up with all the excess guns? So, thanks for the post, as I said I like many parts too it, but we will have to agree to disagree on what is freedom of speech. We do not allow the selling of snake oil because of the damage it does in our nation, we don't want drugs to be sold on the streets .. but it is okay to rip people off on Wall Street or in banking or in healthcare, or to lie to them when your running for office, or to lie the them to forward your agenda? Doesn't make sense.

[JRScott]

Here's what really gets me going. Some people seem to think that a "right" means the government has to give it to you for free. How the heck did that thinking come about?

Yes, I have a right to keep and bear arms. Does that mean the government has to pay for my gun? And if they don't are they violating my rights?

We have a right to a free press. Again, does the government have to provide the tools necessary for me to run a newspaper, or print flyers or develop a web page, etc?

I agree that healthcare should be affordable. There are many reforms that can help to increase access and reduce cost without this transmogrified horror of a healthcare bill our Gov't is working on now.

WhatMoney, as to the statistics you quote I won't quibble with them, but do want to point out a few misconceptions. Good healthcare does not guarantee good health. In the United States we have become sedentary and obese. I posit that these factors will override the best healthcare system in the world. The fact is that you cannot define a casual link between the quality of healthcare available and the mortality rate of a population when comparing first world countries. There are always other factors that will skew the results and it's impossible to run any kind of ethical studies to isolate those factors. (See Tuskeegee Airmen for a bad example)

Bottom line is that you can cite all the statistics that say we're overpaying for our health care system but you won't convince me that this leads to a logical conclusion that health care is a right and that the government should provide it to me for free, (or force others to pay for it for me.)

Excellent points....our mortality rate incidentally is high due to highway wrecks. Carelessness on the roads....from drinking and driving, eating and driving, texting and driving, etc leads to many needless deaths that do not appear in underdeveloped countries. It is the extravagance of our lifestyles that lead to the high mortality rate....as you point out our much higher rates of obesity and our sedentary lifestyles. In a way we are going the way of Rome.

Nothing is free and that's what the liberal left doesn't understand. They have the right to buy health care. While yes there are some in the USA that cannot afford it, far to many are more than happy to buy homes twice as large as they need and new cars rather than paying for health insurance. With the freedom of choice, comes also the consequences of those choices.

There are poor who qualify for Medicaid but do not sign up for it, and there are elderly who qualify for Medicare but do not sign up for it. Why? Can't tell you but it is an exercise of their freedom given by the Constitution.

[WhatMoney]

Excellent points....our mortality rate incidentally is high due to highway wrecks. Carelessness on the roads....from drinking and driving, eating and driving, texting and driving, etc leads to many needless deaths that do not appear in underdeveloped countries. It is the extravagance of our lifestyles that lead to the high mortality rate....as you point out our much higher rates of obesity and our sedentary lifestyles. In a way we are going the way of Rome.

The only study mentioning mortality rates for the uninsured are talking about INFANT mortality rates - caused by poor or no pre-natal and post-natal care of the baby and mother. This has nothing to do with the auto accident rate for the nation. Parents are unlikely to be involved in a fatal accident that kills the baby. Maybe you have drunken mothers texting and eating while they speed down the highway with their young baby unrestrained in the front seat of a pickup truck in your county. That kind of hillbilly behavior in my state will get you arrested and the child given protective custody.

The high rates of obesity and sedentary behavior are more common among the uninsured poor, who eat cheap calories and do not exercise. Free preventative health care would help educate these people on their unhealthy habits and the consequences to their body. Many of the uninsured are walking around with no clue what their blood pressure, cholesterol level, blood glucose level, or body mass index is. Free preventative health care would save money by reducing these walking time bombs from ending up in the ER and/or on disability, where we all have to pay for them under our present system.

I would like to see more incentives for Americans to live a healthy lifestyle - maybe we should make their "free" health care contingent on their rate of weight loss and giving up McDonald's and Burger King meals. Like those red stoplight cameras, we could install them in all the junk food restaurants and drive-thrus, and send tickets to the fat offenders after their doctors see the photos. The proceeds from their junk food tickets could go to their health insurance premium.

Life expectancy also has nothing to do with the mortality rate from accidents. The researchers who produce these health surveys (MD's and PhD's,) are smart enough to adjust the data for things like adult accident rates. There aren't too many 80 yr olds speeding down the freeway drunk, while texting on their Blackberry anyway.

Nothing is free and that's what the liberal left doesn't understand. They have the right to buy health care. While yes there are some in the USA that cannot afford it, far to many are more than happy to buy homes twice as large as they need and new cars rather than paying for health insurance. With the freedom of choice, comes also the consequences of those choices.

We all will have the right to buy health care, one way or the other, with any new universal health coverage. If health insurance is unaffordable to some, others must pay - everyone, including liberals, understands that. That is why you need wide participation in any health insurance plan, to keep the premiums low for everyone who can afford to pay.

The conservatives are just too greedy, self-centered, and angry, to pay taxes or premiums that they believe contribute to the insurance protection for anyone but themselves - particularly those that happen to be poor, an immigrant or a minority. It's the selfish "ME Generation" of Reagan and Bush who cannot see the benefits of having all the population healthy - not just those who happen to already have it through their wealth or employment. This is the all too common "I've already got mine, so F*ck You" attitude in this country.

How many unemployed on this BK forum cannot afford health insurance today? You feel these folks who lost their jobs to China and Mexico are deadbeats who can now just suck it up and die if they get sick?

As far as the folks who lied about their income to buy luxury homes and cars, well it's obvious they should all be rounded up and summarily executed. These people who overspent should be banned from affordable health insurance for life - yeah that's the ticket. Claiming people who did stupid things financially in the last 10 years don't deserve health care may not be the most popular opinion JR, but it's apparently your opinion.

[JRScott]

The only study mentioning mortality rates for the uninsured are talking about INFANT mortality rates - caused by poor or no pre-natal and post-natal care of the baby and mother. This has nothing to do with the auto accident rate for the nation. Parents are unlikely to be involved in a fatal accident that kills the baby. Maybe you have drunken mothers texting and eating while they speed down the highway with their young baby unrestrained in the front seat of a pickup truck in your county. That kind of hillbilly behavior in my state will get you arrested and the child given protective custody.

The high rates of obesity and sedentary behavior are more common among the uninsured poor, who eat cheap calories and do not exercise. Free preventative health care would help educate these people on their unhealthy habits and the consequences to their body. Many of the uninsured are walking around with no clue what their blood pressure, cholesterol level, blood glucose level, or body mass index is. Free preventative health care would save money by reducing these walking time bombs from ending up in the ER and/or on disability, where we all have to pay for them under our present system.

I would like to see more incentives for Americans to live a healthy lifestyle - maybe we should make their "free" health care contingent on their rate of weight loss and giving up McDonald's and Burger King meals. Like those red stoplight cameras, we could install them in all the junk food restaurants and drive-thrus, and send tickets to the fat offenders after their doctors see the photos. The proceeds from their junk food tickets could go to their health insurance premium.

Life expectancy also has nothing to do with the mortality rate from accidents. The researchers who produce these health surveys (MD's and PhD's,) are smart enough to adjust the data for things like adult accident rates. There aren't too many 80 yr olds speeding down the freeway drunk, while texting on their Blackberry anyway.


We all will have the right to buy health care, one way or the other, with any new universal health coverage. If health insurance is unaffordable to some, others must pay - everyone, including liberals, understands that. That is why you need wide participation in any health insurance plan, to keep the premiums low for everyone who can afford to pay.

The conservatives are just too greedy, self-centered, and angry, to pay taxes or premiums that they believe contribute to the insurance protection for anyone but themselves - particularly those that happen to be poor, an immigrant or a minority. It's the selfish "ME Generation" of Reagan and Bush who cannot see the benefits of having all the population healthy - not just those who happen to already have it through their wealth or employment. This is the all too common "I've already got mine, so F*ck You" attitude in this country.

How many unemployed on this BK forum cannot afford health insurance today? You feel these folks who lost their jobs to China and Mexico are deadbeats who can now just suck it up and die if they get sick?

As far as the folks who lied about their income to buy luxury homes and cars, well it's obvious they should all be rounded up and summarily executed. These people who overspent should be banned from affordable health insurance for life - yeah that's the ticket. Claiming people who did stupid things financially in the last 10 years don't deserve health care may not be the most popular opinion JR, but it's apparently your opinion.

Have you ever considered that food prices are high because your government pays farmers to not grow food and thus artificially creates high food prices. So if you really want cheaper vegetables and fruit which I'm all for then you need to reform the farm subsidies removing the government payouts for growing nothing.

I would also point out though that take the south for instance. Traditionally high fat meals that they've served largely for centuries. Problem is not what they are eating but what they are doing. It is engrained in the culture, however they aren't doing the high intensive agricultural jobs they did a century ago. Thus their bodies do not use up the calories. If we all exercised more we wouldn't have as large a problem. However due to No Child Left Behind most school systems removed physical education or trimmed it back to where it is almost nonexistent. Why don't we exercise more? Well depends one where you live. We feel we are entitled to come home and sit on our bums and watch the TV or play on the computer. 20 years ago you'd get out of the house and toss the ball or walk, nowadays most families don't do that. A healthy body is directly related to a healthy mind and we should emphasize in our school systems that physical education is as important as mental education.

The long term unemployed would qualify for Medicaid in most cases. The level is set by a certain percent of the poverty level but almost all the states as far as I know sets the rate much higher than the poverty level, North Carolina's is 185% of poverty level. This would largely kick in after your benefits exhausted depending how much you made prior to unemployment.

Has nothing to do with not wanting to pay taxes, what you seem to not realize is that everything you already own and everything everyone has earned and owned if it was taken tomorrow from you and given to the government we still couldn't afford the promised benefits. If we raised income taxes to 100% we still couldn't afford the already promised benefits. Congress has grossly mismanaged the countries money for a century with the help of many administrations. They promised things and spent money on short term benefits to make sure they were reelected rather than being responsible and ensuring their constitutional duty of longterm prosperity for the nation. (If the federal government took all personal and corporate assets they'd still be 39 trillion short of their liability. Doubling the income tax on everyone still couldn't have paid for last years budget....)

There has to be within an individual some degree of their own personal responsibility. They have to take it upon themselves. We have to stop putting a net down that keeps picking it up when folks fail. They have to suffer the consequence of poor decisions that they might learn and do better.

[BobMango]

...We all will have the right to buy health care, one way or the other, with any new universal health coverage. If health insurance is unaffordable to some, others must pay - everyone, including liberals, understands that. That is why you need wide participation in any health insurance plan, to keep the premiums low for everyone who can afford to pay.
...

And this is the problem. This is the very definition of communism. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" - Karl Marx

There are two major problems with the logic that liberals try to use in equating health insurance with car insurance. The first is that you only have to buy car insurance if you own a car. With universal health care you can't opt out. The second is that pre-existing conditions should be covered. If we apply that to the auto insurance analogy it would be like insuring a car with significant body damage. No insurer would pay for the damage prior to issuing coverage, yet that is precisely what proponents of universal health care are proposing we taxpayers do. Lastly, auto insurance does not cover every contingency. If you blow your engine due to neglect, you are responsible for it. Shouldn't the same be true of health insurance? Don't take care of your health and pay a price. Yet we keep hearing how we should all pay more to cover everyone, regardless of their willingness to take responsibility for their own health.

Again, there are ways to bring down the cost of healthcare and provide more access without bankrupting our society, as the current legislation under consideration would do. When you have to resort to accounting tricks and deferral of coverage (no benefits til 2014) to make the numbers work you know it's just smoke and mirrors. In the current proposed legislation there are more than 340B in IOUs. We know how well that's working with Social Security. Additionally, they are counting on lowering physicians reimbursement which is already too low, and we know that every time Congress has faced this choice in the past, they failed to lower the reimbursement.

One last point is that the Federal government should stick to their constitutional duties and quit meddling in state affairs. A good resource on this is "The Words We Live By" by Linda Monk.

[AngelinaCatHub]

We seem to be a bit hypocritical in this Country, worried about infant mortality, and health care, yet 'Bammy voted for partial birth abortions. BTW, the doctor extracts the baby breach, leaves head in the birth canal, and pierces the back of the head with a scissor or like instrument, and destroys the brain.

A hell of a lot more infants become "mortality" by abortion than by starving.

If I make it to 70, I figure if I have a medical problem, that same doctor (rhetorically) may be the one to give me the purple pill and tell me to go home and take the pill and "everything will be OK."

[WhatMoney]

And this is the problem. This is the very definition of communism. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" - Karl Marx

LOL - So you consider health care for all the definition of communism? That is calling almost all the civilized nations of the world communists. Watch out for those Canadian and English and Australian communists - they are coming to get you now.

There are only five countries considered communist in that they still follow Marxist-Lenin principles:
People's Republic of China, Lao's Peoples Democratic Republic, Socialist Republic of Vietnam, the Republic of Cuba, and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea.) Some of them have good health care coverage (like Cuba) and some do not. Nothing much to do with communism.

Perhaps you are thinking of Socialist countries. Here's a map of the countries of the world that have declared themselves socialist at some point in their history (not necessarily today). Note that most of the modern countries that have health care for all their citizens are also NOT socialist either.

The best basic argument for health care for all is simply the fact that all other modern democratic countries have it and we don't. What is wrong with the 50% of Congress that think they know better than the rest of the civilized world?
Read my signature reference (Sick Around the World) - There are solutions - the rest of the world has figured out what works for their economy. Only the USA remains in the dark.

[AngelinaCatHub]

WhatMoney:

I shall believe all you state when: Our new health care lets me keep my BCBS that I can barely pay for, but has good coverage and WILL NOT GO UP IN PRICE due to 'Bammycare.

It is deficit neutral. Yeah sure.

It will not cover the World as the illegals filter in.

It will not be worse than what we have, and not age governed due to costs.

It will not subsidize killing off live humans with a heartbeat born, unborn, or very old.

It will actually shrink our National Debt as declared by Govmint.

Everyone will be covered and my tax bill will not rise due to this.

OK, your turn. 'Hub

[lrprn]

I shall believe all you state when: ....
OK, your turn. 'Hub

Well, Hub, I'll take a turn....

Which reliable resource will you believe? Which sources might change your mind since it's obviously already made up?

There are many independent sources that refute every single thing you've listed here, up to and including the actual current language in both the House and Senate versions of the healthcare bill that specifically state that almost everything you've listed here is already forbidden and is very unlikely to come out of the combined House/Senate version.

Frankly the only way we'll know what the real outcomes of the final healthcare bill are....that is, if the Senate and House can ever get themselves together for a joint version that can actually pass both bodies with any effective cost-containment and coverage measures left....is to let time take its course and see whose predictions are correct.

The one thing that every reliable, independent healthcare expert in the US has stated clearly is that we cannot stay on the same path we're on. Something has to be done.

Just because the current system is working for you now doesn't mean it's working for everyone in this country (and I'm talking about everyone that's here legally)....or that in the future, BCBS or any other current health insurance company won't turn on you and their current clients too.

As a practicing RN providing patient care for over 30 years, I've already posted my insider's view on what's happening around the healthcare debate here several times. I agree 100% with the experts - something has to be done. There's no staying with the status quo any longer.

Sometimes you have to go with the odds and hope for the best - just as many of us here did with when we decided to file bankruptcy.

[DeadManCrawling]

I am amused.

This thread starkly points out the ridiculously small difference between the parties. Truly, amazing. One argues that the sky is blue and is refuted by the other claiming the earth is brown. Total disconnect, yet people still fight the good fight for their respective "beliefs".

How about this?

People ARE people and need to be treated with respect and dignity. If that means some fellow in the Hamptons has to skip his filet mignon this Thursday, what of it? Universal healthcare is not only necessary, it is the only humane thing to do.

And I CAN afford my healthcare. However, it has risen from a hundred bucks a month to nearly 1800 per month in the last decade. My income cannot keep pace with those increases.

Someone's house is getting larger, someone's belly is fattening. It is not mine.

My favorite argument from one side in this debate goes like this:

Government will have an unfair advantage in running healthcare and will kill insurance companies.

Yet, from the same side comes this: You want GOVERNMENT in your healthcare? These imbeciles cannot do ANYTHING, so it would be a total disaster.

Which is it?

Is government health care a threat to profits or a stupid clown posse? It cannot be both, that is a contradiction.

Bring it on. It can't be any worse than the so-called "free-market".

Best to all,

dmc

[AngelinaCatHub]

OH yes, Lrprn. I agree, we shall not know until it hits upon us.

My daughter is also a RN at Shands Teaching Hospital in Gville, FL. She is 20 years there. She tells me of things that I do not understand except they are preparing for the worst.

If I am wrong, that would be wonderful. But like so many other things this Govment R and D has done, once done cannot be un-done. Do we take this chance? Would your hospital turn away some person in dire straits? Not legal to do so.

Does your hospital take in those who have 'sniffles'? Yes it does. Our medical system is not broken. Billing is. AND quess what billing is most abused? Medicare/Medicaid. Govmint stuff.

The system IS broken. Not the medical system, the government system.

If the Govmint would allow over state competition (in which they will not try) or other alternatives, maybe, just maybe we will both be right. I doubt that will happen. I shall NOT purchase a GM product or a Chrysler product. I will purchase Ford or Toyota, a truly made in America product. Toyota I'm talking about.

If you are correct, I shall kiss any nurse I see. (After I get out of jail, I'll tell you about it.).

In any case, we shall both see. In the mean time, press on as you as a nurse are a truly hard working and blessed person. 'Hub