Do the Russians think more of our Country than we do?

[AngelinaCatHub]

I noted the speech given by our now president, Osama Housene Obama.

It is clear to me who have eyes and ears, that he respects our nation less than our once "Cold War" enemies.

I also note that little about 911 tragedy, has been remembered by our fellow countrymen.

Please view this presentation noting the 911 memorial that nobody has heard about in our news. It was given by the Russian people in remembrance of our loss and their commitment against Terrorism.

http://www.jwdc.com/jwdc/mainimages/Sept.,11Russia.pps

'Hub

[banca rotta]

I noted the speech given by our now president, Osama Housene Obama.

It is clear to me who have eyes and ears, that he respects our nation less than our once "Cold War" enemies.

I also note that little about 911 tragedy, has been remembered by our fellow countrymen.

Please view this presentation noting the 911 memorial that nobody has heard about in our news. It was given by the Russian people in remembrance of our loss and their commitment against Terrorism.

http://www.jwdc.com/jwdc/mainimages/Sept.,11Russia.pps

'Hub

Very nice presentation.


Obama's only purpose was to make history and he did and that is it.

We can thank the socialist wing of the liberal democratic party, the "history makers, the banks and last but not least Mr. Bush himself and his bad calls, for the gift of obama who otherwise wouldn't have ever stood a chance based only on his socialist agenda.

[Rahaton]

Hub, it is funny you build my respect for you up and then you smash it down. The childishness you and the rump of the republican party it showing is just pathetic. This country is in some serious sh1t and the adults in the room have to sort it out. But every time you "Osama Housene", "Democrat party", "socialist this" or other childish thing you simply reaffirm that you don't care about this country and have elected to piss and whine in the corner.

When you actually can approach the situation in good faith, there are plenty of us that would love to hear from you. (Just for the record I am very disappointed in Obama, but there is nothing I can do about that until we get a real dialogue in this country.)

[AngelinaCatHub]

Hub, it is funny you build my respect for you up and then you smash it down. The childishness you and the rump of the republican party it showing is just pathetic. This country is in some serious sh1t and the adults in the room have to sort it out. But every time you "Osama Housene", "Democrat party", "socialist this" or other childish thing you simply reaffirm that you don't care about this country and have elected to piss and whine in the corner.

When you actually can approach the situation in good faith, there are plenty of us that would love to hear from you. (Just for the record I am very disappointed in Obama, but there is nothing I can do about that until we get a real dialogue in this country.)

[AngelinaCatHub]

(Just for the record I am very disappointed in Obama, but there is nothing I can do about that until we get a real dialogue in this country.)

Add on: Well, Rahaton, if you state your disappointment, but you think you can do nothing, you are a normal citizen of this now sterile Country. Can you not think, you might VOTE the jerks out? How about those Tea Parties? I myself, have a cache of ammo, and rations. NO! I am not postal, I am patriotic.

If you wish to see what is happening, you should research the Germany of the 1920s and 30s. Deja vue all over again.

1776 Don't Tread on me. 'Hub

[Rahaton]

Rahaton: In all due respect, may I comment per your retort. First of all, I am a registered Dem. Next I am neither Dem or Rep. I could be called a Libertarian, but I disagree with them too.

I am sorry if I offended you but you are talking the talk, I don't really care too much about what party someone is registered in since many of us live in one party towns. I am in purple country now where is might matter, back home we are all god fearing republicans in the reddest of red states.

I never liked any of the Bush's. 'Bammy has just about given our Country over to the U.N. I believe in my heart that his intent is not to ever be voted out. LBJ lost a war in VN due to politics, 'Bammy is gifting loss to terrorists. If it were not for the liberal "treehuggers, peaceniks, liberal jerks", we would go in and fix the problems in hours not days.

Amazing, after I called you out for your infantile name calling you still could not bring yourself to refer to the president in a neutral way. In the interest of good will let's look past that and assume that you are trying to discuss things honestly.

I would ask you how did Obama give the country to the U.N.? I admit I only listened to part of the speech but I basically took away from it that if the world does not want us to do things unilaterally they had better participate in the process. What did I miss?

What problem are you suggesting we could solve without the liberals? Pacification of Afghanistan? Why was this not tried when the liberals were totally out of power? Short of "nuke them from orbit" I can't see where one can draw the distinction you are making. Help me understand.

Remember, War is Hell. We bombed Germany and it's cities. Germany bombed London and the civilians. War, you kill people and break things. Let us get it over and knock them off and get peace or, one day, your grandchild may die suddenly in a white hot blast of a N. Korean missile and an Iran warhead.

Mine too, but you have to make the case that that approach would actually help our security. The middle east is not germany and the people are not germans. The great wars of Europe were about mobilized nations now we are fighting a war of fragmented insurgencies and terrorist cells. If we carpet bomb Kabul what will be different the next day?

Even if we wanted to and could kill 'em all and let god sort them out, we can't afford it. So what can we do within our means?


I have not forgotten, but I understood it from the get go. I had lived oversees and been in dangerous places and I did not have the illusion that we were untouchable. So many people in this country had their illusion of perfect safety in the U.S.A. shattered that day they still cannot handle the fear.

It is funny to get crap like "war is hell" from people who accuse me of not getting 9/11. It certainly is hell and it is time for the bedwetting to stop in this country. But right now that is all the republican party has, fear and outrage, until we are able to put that aside and stand up we are just making our country Osama's little *****. It is just like when your kid is getting bullied at school, if they let the fear overcome them then things never get better, the moment they stand up the bulling stops.

My America was destroyed that day but it wasn't by the terrorists, it was by the fear that was nurtured and fed because it served a political purpose. My America was FDR's America of "We have nothing to fear but fear itself!" but I see so much of frantic petrified fear around me, we are children afraid of a bogey man in a cave. This is not the America I grew up with, "Remember the Alamo" was a call to arms, "you have forgotten 9/11" means you aren't scared enough.

Well tough, war is hell, so is life. It is time to buck up!

I responded to you precisely because of what I read from you in other threads, if I thought you were just another wingnut it would not matter. Like I said in so may things I recognize you as one of the adults in the room, and then you go blow it with the school yard taunts.

[Rahaton]

Add on: Well, Rahaton, if you state your disappointment, but you think you can do nothing, you are a normal citizen of this now sterile Country. Can you not think, you might VOTE the jerks out? How about those Tea Parties? I myself, have a cache of ammo, and rations. NO! I am not postal, I am patriotic.

I am not doing nothing, I am working my ass of to make things better. I can only vote every 2 years, I can try to stop the bull every day. This is not a sterile country, we are at a juncture were we can either prove our mettle as the heirs of this great land, or we can implode. Just shouting "NO!" has no value, look at the birthers, tea partiers, and militias and they are all on the wrong side of history. There is no there there.

Stocking up on rations and ammo is not patriotic. Paranoid, yes, but not patriotic. You are saying that in this difficult time in our history you are opting out, giving up.

Also think about it, who are you defending yourself against? The government? I used to work on the weapons systems you will be facing and your ass will be grass.

If you wish to see what is happening, you should research the Germany of the 1920s and 30s. Deja vue all over again.

I am actually quite the student of history, so how do you see a parallel with now? The only thing that really stands out is the surge in right wing authoritarian militias, but then that is not politically correct to discuss.

1776 Don't Tread on me. 'Hub

We had the revolution, now we have a republic, who amongst us will stand up to keep it?

[Kansas1960]

Why do progressives try to label those who oppose their efforts as radicals and fear mongers? The progressives have hijacked the democratic party and most democrats have stuck to the party out of loyalty and ignoring the efforts to change our country into some form of socialism or fascist state. There are many different forms of government around the world and who are we to say one is good or bad for the people that choose that for themselves? I like our form of government as capitalism and enjoy our free speech and allowing the individual to provide for themselves. I am against the collective and one world system. There are many people that want that for our country and the President is one of them. He surrounds himself with like minded people. I intend to speak out and inform all I know to open your eyes and try to see what is going on. Too many Americans have fallen for the fantasy of everyone included and nobody left behind. I remember the first time I heard about this in school I thought how great this sounded. Sorry, that will not work. The hippies of the 60's now want this commune theory at a national level. What will happen will be less productivity and innovation. Who can blame people who understand this and prepare. I see the progressives as wanting to restrict gun ownership, hijack corporte america and try to controll everything form health care to what we can own or do with our work efforts. Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers did not have this in mind. I attended a tea party and it was an awesome experience to see other like minded people express this love for the country as we used to know it. The right side of history will hopefully be seen in the next several elections.

[Rahaton]

Why do progressives try to label those who oppose their efforts as radicals and fear mongers?

I don't know that is just progressives that are making this observation. I know that neocons are no longer considered "true conservatives" but even Karl Rove explicitly states that that was the plan under Bush it has only intensified after the election.

A good test is to look at what arguments are being brought to bare on the question at hand and the manner in which the discussion is being present in the public square. You then go on to cite some specific examples that I will get to below.

The progressives have hijacked the democratic party and most democrats have stuck to the party out of loyalty and ignoring the efforts to change our country into some form of socialism or fascist state.

This is a total non-sequiter how does on get from progressives to socialism or fascism? This is one good example of fear-mongering, the epithet of socialist has been so overused that no body using it even know what it means anymore. Can you tell me specifically how the progressive agenda overlaps the socialist one? The fascist one?

There are many different forms of government around the world and who are we to say one is good or bad for the people that choose that for themselves?

Funny thing is that, that is exactly what is going on. America is making a choice. Part of the population is saying that the current way we pay of healthcare is not what they want. A poll from just today shows that large majorities supports a public option 65% in favor 26% opposed, even among Republicans the majority supports a public option 47% to 42%.

The problem is this is a choice that effects us all and that we all have to participate in, that is why we have government.

I like our form of government as capitalism and enjoy our free speech and allowing the individual to provide for themselves.

We are already socialist, we just do things via corporate welfare, regulatory capture, and too-big-to-fail. Pure capitalism has been tried and it failed but rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water like the communists did, the US looked at how to harness the power of capitalism by tweaking it, so we have a capitalisim-light.

You have to remember that capitalism and the market are simply a force, neither good or bad--like fire. You can heat your home or burn it down the fire is the same.

I am against the collective and one world system. There are many people that want that for our country and the President is one of them.

And their black helicopters. You are getting close to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion territory in some of this stuff. This is pure fear mongering and if you think about it what part could even could be true. Obama is not magical, he can't rewrite the constitution, even the BS powers that Bush claimed are not sufficient to do what you suggest.

He surrounds himself with like minded people. I intend to speak out and inform all I know to open your eyes and try to see what is going on. Too many Americans have fallen for the fantasy of everyone included and nobody left behind. I remember the first time I heard about this in school I thought how great this sounded. Sorry, that will not work.

What do you mean by "nobody left behind"? Right now we are discussing why we spend twice as much on health care to get results that are the worst in the first world. There is a huge difference between a minimum standard and what you are talking about.

Today's minimum standard is based on the fact that we find it morally repugnant for a hospital to be able to turn away a dying person. It is very expensive to operate this way, and I am paying for that. I do not want to subsidize your ability to avoid insurance with the knowledge that when the heart attack comes I will pay for your treatment.

Anyone who wants to avoid universal health care needs to address how we close that moral loophole--and let the free-riders die!

The economics is very simple, we cannot have it both ways. I cannot bring myself to kill a sick man for lack of money so I have to support universal healthcare.

The hippies of the 60's now want this commune theory at a national level. What will happen will be less productivity and innovation. Who can blame people who understand this and prepare.

Funny how all those countries with sane healthcare are kicking our asses in productivity and innovation. A huge part of the cost of American labor is our screwed up healthcare system, if we could address that imagine what we could do.

Innovation very rarely comes from large businesses, it comes from the guy in his garage with a vision. (Also this guy tends to be 45-55 years old, an age you would be crazy to go without insurance.) How many innovations have we lost to people forced to stay in a dead end job because they could not strike out for fear of needing insurance.

When you say these changes would stifle innovation and productivity you need to say show how they would do this more than our current screwed up system. I doubt that you can.

I see the progressives as wanting to restrict gun ownership, hijack corporte america and try to controll everything form health care to what we can own or do with our work efforts.

Nobody wants your guns, more fear mongering. How is it that under the democrats people can and do openly carry at Obama events and town halls while under the right's control these people were not allowed to be armed and were fenced into "free speech zones" miles away from the event? Imagin what would have happened if someone had a gun at a Bush event, they would be in a federal cell in a second.

Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers did not have this in mind.

Funny thing, Thomas Jefferson was the founder of the Democrats and a liberal. In his time Jefferson fought against the right wing of his day and I am sure he would be on the same side today.

I attended a tea party and it was an awesome experience to see other like minded people express this love for the country as we used to know it. The right side of history will hopefully be seen in the next several elections.

Just be careful, you can find a group of people who will agree with anything, you need to rely on your own good sense and not your heard instincts. I see that the tea baggers are now selling american flags stained with tea to show their love of this country. Where I was raised that would have been a desecration, I just sounds so much like an abusive relationship to me.

[Kansas1960]

You must really be a happy person right now and if the county goes the direction you support you will be really really happy. The voters wanted a different direction than Bush was taking us but this was not what they wanted. You are smart to be afraid (like you mention so many times) because there will be a big change after the elections. I have nothing against you, I just don't agree with about anything you say. Let's keep this civil because I am curious about your views.

1. Is there any country the more closely fits your views than the United States?
2. Do you belive that Jesus Chirst is the Son of God and through Him you will have eternal life? (I am not preaching, just want to know your history)
3. Has the earth warmed to a point dangerous and is that mostly man made?
4. Do you support unlimited abortions and should the taxpayer pay the bill?
5. Would you support giving ALLyour income to the government to allow them to divide it back to you.
6. Should we dismantle all of our nuclear weapons?
7. Would you fight to protect our country if China or Russia came to invade us?

If you are offended at any of these questions you do not understand my intentions. I will answer any question with a yes or no if you do the same.

[Rahaton]

You must really be a happy person right now and if the county goes the direction you support you will be really really happy. The voters wanted a different direction than Bush was taking us but this was not what they wanted.

Sure but I am not sure that this (assuming we are talking about universal health reform) as I mentioned above there is a majority in favor of some style of healthcare for all, even among republicans.

You are smart to be afraid (like you mention so many times) because there will be a big change after the elections. I have nothing against you, I just don't agree with about anything you say. Let's keep this civil because I am curious about your views.

I started this with as a plea for civility, not a problem there. The only thing that I am really afraid of is the way that fear is being used to stampede the population of this country.

1. Is there any country the more closely fits your views than the United States?

No there isn't. But that said we have done a better job in the past, right now the hysterical freak out on the part of the right wing is disappointing.

2. Do you belive that Jesus Chirst is the Son of God and through Him you will have eternal life? (I am not preaching, just want to know your history)

I grew up among missionaries and I have seen how that question is used to dehumanize and divide people all my life. You don't want to know my history, but if you tell me whatever bit of doctrine you hold dear I can tell you why you are wrong and will burn in hell for it. ;-) (This topic already exploded on another thread I was not participating in on this board so lets not start another.)

3. Has the earth warmed to a point dangerous and is that mostly man made?

From what I have seen in my local environment it certainly has warmed, we have lost several year-round snow fields I knew of as a child that melt off in the summer now. So, my eyes say yes.

Is it dangerous, yes and no, it is change and in that there will be winners and losers. The climate will have to change radically to make the earth uninhabitable, but it will not take much to change where crops will grow. The big tragedy will be when we get a new dust bowl or the like and American agriculture fails. Sure the Canadians will be able to grow more food and the world will adapt in time, the problem is that those changes will be painful.

4. Do you support unlimited abortions and should the taxpayer pay the bill?

I am pragmatic on abortion. We have always had them, legalization did not significantly increase the rate and it significantly reduced the rate of maternal death. From a social perspective free access to public funded abortions gives the best outcomes across the population.

I always find it ironic that abortion opponents are most opposed to policies that actually reduce abortion, the concentration is always on punishment and authority.

5. Would you support giving ALLyour income to the government to allow them to divide it back to you.

I am trying to remain civil, what do you think? Of course not. Is anyone proposing this in the current situation?

6. Should we dismantle all of our nuclear weapons?

In a land of fairies and niceness, sure. But this question is not tied to reality. We can talk about it as a utopian end, but there is no reason to assume that the purpose the serve will go away.

7. Would you fight to protect our country if China or Russia came to invade us?

Yep.

If you are offended at any of these questions you do not understand my intentions. I will answer any question with a yes or no if you do the same.

Actually, after going through them I am kind of offended. Can you see why? What you are really doing is trying to identify some reason why you can dismiss me as the member of come crazy pariah group in your mind.

If you really want to know what I am, I am an anti-authoritarian. All the things that I answered "wrong" above in you list are things where the "right" reason really means giving into authoritarianism. Some people are very comforted by that, I am not one of those people.

As for my questions:

I know the way a stereotypical tea-bagger would answer the questions, do you agree with all those positions?

Have you ever doubted the correctness of a position you hold?

How do you reconcile your beliefs with contradictory evidence?
(Like liberal states having lower rates of divorce, abortion, teen pregnancy and the like.)

If a policy has better real world outcomes but is not ideologically pure could you support it?

Will you refuse Medicare when you qualify?

Denying global warming requires a giant world-wide conspiracy of thousands and thousands of respected scientists. What would motivate these people to risk their careers and reputations? What can enforce the level of coordination and message discipline? How expensive would such an organization be to create and run? Why?

I will leave it there for now. I might be wrong in my guesses about your answers but if not I am fascinated by how someone can actually hold what I see as self-contradictory positions.

[Kansas1960]

I typed a long reply and somehow lost the page and it is gone. I will sum up my point. You make strong points for your position, I respect you and your thoughts. Many worldwide think like you. I hope all of us learn to live in a system that by definition cannot be what we all want since we all want different things. The hate needs to stop on both side and all kooks on both sides don't represent the left or the right. Be careful calling protesters tea baggers and also bag on Hub for similar language about Obama. Good luck on your BK.

[Rahaton]

Thanks, and I will watch the "tea bagger" name. I can't claim innocence in not knowing its other meaning, although I have seen many people refer to themselves as such. I think it is beat if I just put that into the good ol' pejorative bag and leave it there.

As for the bk we are just waiting on our 60 day clock to run out, that is smooth sailing from here. What I need luck on is the finding work thing.

[momisery]

cutting to the chase here... both parties are so busy beating up on each other so they can remain in power for ever that it should lead us to ask the question.... How much are they really MAKING by working for us the taxpayer? Certainly we are not paying that large of a salary, so there must be so much more in it for them by cheating and stealing from us. But getting us to fight right and left, man and women, black/red/white/yellow against each other, christian/muslem/atheist/etc.... I lived in GA for about 4 years and that was all I could take. Their opened their meetings with prayers and quoted scriptures as if Jesus would have been interested in making huge bucks in the mortgage business if he were still alive. This of course left out a very good friend of mine who was Jewish. When it starting slowing down they laid off off her was their CPA and replaced him with a bookkeeper from the church. He had two little kids in special ed schools. I never felt so oppressed in my whole life as I did when I lived there. Fear of them finding out I was not of their faith, that I did not work all week and spend all day Sunday at church. It could cost me my job too you know. I am so tired of the fighting and the holier than you attitudes that have sprung up in the past decade that I could puke. Both parties suck, we need to get over ourselves and move on to work together again. Kick the lying news media to the curb and all the talk show hosts who can not be bothered to tell the truth right out with them. I visit factcheck.org and I love it. It tells the lies on both sides if your heart can take it. It is not a site that says we are doomed at all. It is a site that lets you read and decide for yourself the real FACTs. My self after spendng a few years fact checking I have decided we need a whole new government replacement since we HAVE to have a two party system and we don't have one, we have a one party system. They lead us to believe we have two, they hype the airwaves with two with voices from Hannity, Rush, Beck, Schultz, Frankin, etc... But all it is about is hype. Getting us to blame our neighbors for the problems that plague our nation instead of really looking at washington. It has gotten so crazy that no one can get anthing done but campaign in Washington.

[Toby629]

AngelinaCatHub, thank you for the link to view the presentation of the Russian monument of 911. That was truly touching. It is sad to note that our own country has yet to erect a fitting monument to 911 all these years later. At least there is this beautiful teardrop tower as a remembrance to all who perished on 09/11, that they shall not ever be forgotten.