Here comes the MONEY$$$

[DeadManCrawling]

As a nation we need to stop thinking in terms of R and D. Both parties are so inclusive that they really stand for nothing.

Perhaps the most important statement in this whole thread. Both parties are guilty in equal measure of tearing down a once-great nation. Both parties have mastered the art of tactical diversion, pointing the fingers at one another and causing this divisive mentality that runs through nearly every political discussion.

Both parties serve no other purpose than to divert our attention while they push their own snouts further into the public trough and pillage the people, IN THE NAME OF THE PEOPLE. FOR OUR OWN GOOD.

Sadly, I do not know that anything can really be done about it now, short of full-scale revolution. Hopefully not the armed kind.

Republican and Democrat parties, in reality, appear to be one and the same. And both are the enemy of any person who cares for our children, our country.

Republicans push through heinous legislation that even they admit is a total failure, loading our money onto the banks and elite power institutions that dragged this country into the mud.

Then they say, well, yes, it did not work, but the past is the past, let's move on.

Then the Democrats pull the same trick and say, hey, the Republicans started it. For better or for worse, we are too far into this to turn back.

Trust us. It's for your own good.

Both are descended directly from the same smouldering pile of mildewing garbage. They simply use different symbols and words.

Does it matter, in the end, what color the mascot, if we are doomed in either case?

[jeb]

[QUOTE=DeadManCrawling;287877]As a nation we need to stop thinking in terms of R and D. Both parties are so inclusive that they really stand for nothing.

Deadman, I don't totally agree with this - it is the lack of inclusion of the Republicans that have created most of our problems.

Yes, there are a bunch of bastards in both parties - many on both sides taking huge amounts of money from lobbyist, selling their vote. Many are corrupt on many levels. Many have virtually no ethics or morals.

But overwhelmingly, a far higher percentage of the Republican Party falls into these categories.

Just today, we have seen just one more of the morally high and mighty of the Republican Party - you know, those that take the moral high road and toss out their "religion" at every turn - exposed for having an affair - - not forgetting this very man repeatedly called for the resignation of Clinton and even those of his own party that had transgressions and now says he will not resign. Ah, such ethics - such morals.

It is this holding themselves our to such a high standard and then crashing over and over and over again that is the problem - even though there are many more Democrats than Republicans the ratio is heavily to the far right - it seems the more to the right the more likelihood to fall into one of the above categories. And it is not because the Republicans have not turned over every rock they can find looking for the same in Democrats - I wonder what it feels like to get out of bed every morning with the only thing on your mind is finding some dirt on someone else? What a sad life.

The problem is very basic - the Republicans are a solid block, they parrot every day whatever the "talking points" of the day are, they pressure their members to vote as they want, they cut off funds and run others against them if they don't toe the line, the far right, neocon line.

The morals and ethics they use with their election ads is so far down in the gutter it makes one sick - and it appears the American people have - FAINLLY - decided enough is enough. (Don't hold your breath, however - most Americans can't even tell you who ran in the last election never mind what they stood for.)

The Democrats, on the other hand, are amazed every time they can get 10 members to agree on anything!

As I mentioned, I use to be registered as a Republican - until the Swift Boat Assassins did their number on John Kerry and not one single Republican stood up and protested it. That was the last straw for me.

I had never voted a straight ticket - until that 2000 election. I will not now nor ever again vote for ANY Republican. IF they call themselves Republicans then they are agreeing on what the party is doing.

It is time we had a 3rd party in this country - one that is down the middle and not off on some ideological bent like the few times it has been tried in the past - you know, the flat tax, the "I'm going to fix it.", the "no government at all" and others.

Then we could push the far right and the far left out of the party and let the rest of us do what is right for the people, the country and the world. (The world being mentioned for as we have seen for some many years the Republican doing everything they can to discredit and stop anything that has to do with global warming. Only an idiot would say that it doesn't exist.

Here's to us - the "normal ones". - jb

[LuciluS]

Jeb:
Your post:

- not forgetting this very man repeatedly called for the resignation of Clinton and even those of his own party that had transgressions and now says he will not resign. Ah, such ethics - such morals.


One comment only as I've lived in AR most of my life. The Clintons have no morals or ethics!

Luci

[DeadManCrawling]

Luci,

I agree with most of your thoughts, but I would take it one step further.

To my knowledge, the nearest thing to true democracy the world has seen was Ancient Greece, where everyone literally came to town and cast a vote.

The internet allows us the same chance.

There is no longer a need for representative government. Every person has access to the net in some fashion. And for the very small number who do not, we already have polling places with voting machines. Hook the damn things up to the net.

Get rid of congress and we will truly see the will of the people.

No more lobbyists. No more crooked career politicians.

Hold a vote on matters monthly or quarterly, with bills generated online and sent to referendum after a threshold of people say so.

Simple.

Stop the corruption in its tracks and make it truly by the people and FOR the people.

[LuciluS]

Luci,

I agree with most of your thoughts, but I would take it one step further.

To my knowledge, the nearest thing to true democracy the world has seen was Ancient Greece, where everyone literally came to town and cast a vote.

The internet allows us the same chance.

There is no longer a need for representative government. Every person has access to the net in some fashion. And for the very small number who do not, we already have polling places with voting machines. Hook the damn things up to the net.

Get rid of congress and we will truly see the will of the people.

No more lobbyists. No more crooked career politicians.

Hold a vote on matters monthly or quarterly, with bills generated online and sent to referendum after a threshold of people say so.

Simple.

Stop the corruption in its tracks and make it truly by the people and FOR the people.

I totally agree! However, it's just like a Flat Income Tax for ALL!
JOB LOSS!

Luci

[JRScott]

Actually not everyone voted in Ancient Greece, you had to be a citizen of one of the city states, and they varied in how you became a citizen. It generally required military service of one sort or another for men, and giving birth to a child for a woman.

However I disagree with Jeb above, the Republicans haven't narrowed their viewpoint. The problem is they have never stood by their stated viewpoints. They are just as inclusive as the Democrats, its what enables the two of them to maintain a monopoly.

In countries outside the United States they don't even understand why we have elections as oftentimes they see little difference between our candidates. Where we have 2 ( sometimes 3 or 4) running for an office in other newer democracies it is not uncommon to have 4 or more for all jobs running local, state, and national.

There is no difference between R and D as a national party. If you have any doubt examine closely Obama's proposals and you'll see many of them were the same proposals that Bush made. Everything that Bush started has pretty much been continued by Obama, including Gitmo (I mean we have Alcatraz we could easily move all of them to Alcatraz in short order but they don't want to do it). The two parties are more about pointing the finger at the other party than actually solving anything. They have numerous members who seem to not line up on any level with their stated political agendas, yet they stay in the party. The reason that many of these people stay R or D is not because they believe in the philosophy of the parties if indeed there is any single philosophy but it is because they made the rules so difficult for anyone who is not R and not D to even run and hold office.

If Washington wants to see what's coming they they need to start looking at the riots in Tehran. There is a growing anger in this country, it hasn't yet reached that level but within 10-15 years the United States could easily be in the same sort of riots and such as the people finally grow tired of the R and D monopoly and decide to topple it once and for all.

Jeb keep in mind according to polls 44% of Americans are conservative, so if the R were conservative like they say they'd pretty much win all the elections but that doesn't happen because they aren't who they say they are. Its the reason FoxNews beats the other more liberal news organizations in ratings. Only 20% of the country is liberal.

[SweetGeorgia]

I think Obama's right that health care reform has to be done now (although I really want a much more liberal plan than we'll get). Give the industry lobbyists and the radio screamers more time, and those cowards in Congress will lose the political will to do anything at all. Almost everything you hear about Canadian health care (or British or French or whatever) is a lie. All of those systems have weaknesses, but our system? The most dysfunctional thing in the history of the world.

Nobody is safe from being ruined by health care costs (except maybe Warren Buffett!). It's like fire departments - it used to be that each homeowner paid for a firefighting service, and services competed amongst themselves. But the fire didn't care. If your neighbor's house caught fire, and he didn't have a firefighting service, then the fire spread. And the whole block burned down.

But if the next city over had been using a city fire department for years, and lost a lot fewer buildings to fire - then you have enough information to say what works better. What does ideology, or economic theory, or political affiliation have to do with it?

[FLBK7]

Jeb keep in mind according to polls 44% of Americans are conservative, so if the R were conservative like they say they'd pretty much win all the elections but that doesn't happen because they aren't who they say they are. Its the reason FoxNews beats the other more liberal news organizations in ratings. Only 20% of the country is liberal.

Wow, and just where do those numbers come from? They do sound like something pulled out of Fox News' magic hat on any given day! LOL

Moreover, people registered in the Republican Party are not all "conservatives," -- just like those registered as Democrats are not all "liberals." There's so much gray within those parties, and reputable polling organizations know that. The majority of Americans are actually centrist in their thinking, with some leaning left of center and some leaning right of center. The far right and the far left are MINORITIES.

This may interest you: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...artisan_trends

And if you really want thorough, unbiased polling analyses from ALL sources, you may want to consider bookmarking www.pollingreport.com in your favorite places. I've been following them regularly since I left the Republican Party right after the 2000 election. That, along with reading MANY newspapers and watching MANY TV programs (in other words, not just foxnews.com or cnn.com), has made me a better informed American voter.

[JRScott]

I think Obama's right that health care reform has to be done now (although I really want a much more liberal plan than we'll get). Give the industry lobbyists and the radio screamers more time, and those cowards in Congress will lose the political will to do anything at all. Almost everything you hear about Canadian health care (or British or French or whatever) is a lie. All of those systems have weaknesses, but our system? The most dysfunctional thing in the history of the world.

Nobody is safe from being ruined by health care costs (except maybe Warren Buffett!). It's like fire departments - it used to be that each homeowner paid for a firefighting service, and services competed amongst themselves. But the fire didn't care. If your neighbor's house caught fire, and he didn't have a firefighting service, then the fire spread. And the whole block burned down.

But if the next city over had been using a city fire department for years, and lost a lot fewer buildings to fire - then you have enough information to say what works better. What does ideology, or economic theory, or political affiliation have to do with it?

The current plan only covers between 6-16 million of the current uninsured, and their are estimates another 20+ million would be dumped from corporate plans and forced onto the plan. The cost estimates don't include that 20+ million even though they know that would happen.

The country simply can't afford it. To cover everyone equally well as say medicaid/medicare would run around 2-3 trillion a year. We don't have that kind of money.

What they need to do is limit as I said earlier the malpractice lawsuit amounts. Only by lowering the cost of insurance doctors and hospitals pay can we ever hope to really reign in medical costs in this country.

The other major thing is to only increase medicaid/medicare payments by no more than the rate of inflation. See right now many hospitals and doctors and ambulance services charge medicare payment + 15% to non medicare patients in order to drive up the future medicare payment which really isn't fair.

[JRScott]

Wow, and just where do those numbers come from? They do sound like something pulled out of Fox News' magic hat on any given day! LOL

Moreover, people registered in the Republican Party are not all "conservatives," -- just like those registered as Democrats are not all "liberals." There's so much gray within those parties, and reputable polling organizations know that. The majority of Americans are actually centrist in their thinking, with some leaning left of center and some leaning right of center. The far right and the far left are MINORITIES.

This may interest you: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...artisan_trends

And if you really want thorough, unbiased polling analyses from ALL sources, you may want to consider bookmarking www.pollingreport.com in your favorite places. I've been following them regularly since I left the Republican Party right after the 2000 election. That, along with reading MANY newspapers and watching MANY TV programs (in other words, not just foxnews.com or cnn.com), has made me a better informed American voter.

Pew research poll that just came out. It didn't use parties only liberal, conservative, neither. Most were conservative (44), next most were neither(36), least were liberal (20). (Those are percentages)

See the thing is in the media is that you have many left leaning news agencies (pretty much all of them other than fox). Fox leans conservative. So you have many competing for fewer people already and alienating potentially more customers, while fox being the only conservative leaning one pretty much eats up that group of people. (I like Lou Dobbs on CNN though and I don't like Hannity on Fox). So basically those that don't like how FOX beats them year in and year out would do well to attract and support some conservative anchors and commentators more so than they do now.

[FLBK7]

Pew research poll that just came out. It didn't use parties only liberal, conservative, neither. Most were conservative (44), next most were neither(36), least were liberal (20).

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. This is straight from Pew's website:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1207/republican-party-identification-slips-nationwide-pennsylvania-specter-switch

Moreover, no reputable pollster would pitch "conservatives" vs. "liberals." That's just not credible polling science because each of those groups are actually factions of the Republican and Democrat Parties, not parties or entities in themselves.

[SweetGeorgia]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of any of the plans they're talking about. I think we can afford SOMETHING if we stop paying twice as much per capita as the next civilized country, though.

And yeah, malpractice. In my state, I believe you have to have economic damages (medical costs, lost wages) before you can even claim non-economic damages (pain & suffering, the big money). Without the huge medical costs, a lot of suits just couldn't get filed. I wonder how many people file lawsuits just because...getting sick cost them their job and their house and their car and their credit and so on. It's really unfair and people look for someone to blame.

And I have no love for Citibank or Bank of America, but they've been much nicer than the medical collectors. I wonder how much money they lose because of medical bankruptcies.

[jeb]

"Hold a vote on matters monthly or quarterly, with bills generated online and sent to referendum after a threshold of people say so.

Simple."

Simple - yes. Will it work - no. The reason is that our elections are won or lost because of the ads run buy the parties - those voting aren't smart enough or will not take the time to find out if the ads are correct or not. So having everyone voting on each issue would just start a continuing blast of ads paid for by those that have a stake in the issue and we cattle will follow along, just as we do now.

"Jeb keep in mind according to polls 44% of Americans are conservative, so if the R were conservative like they say they'd pretty much win all the elections but that doesn't happen because they aren't who they say they are. Its the reason FoxNews beats the other more liberal news organizations in ratings. Only 20% of the country is liberal."

If only 20% of the people are liberal and ,therefore, would listen to liberal news, while 44% are conservative then in a short time ALL the news channels would be conservative. As for the Republicans being "inclusive" they are working very, very hard lately trying to get all but the "pure" out of their party. At this point in time, their party is white, male, hard headed, narrow in point of view, gun nut, racist, and bigoted. They follow along with whatever they are told to do and say - 'talking points" every day - and dare not get out of line least the party cut off all financial support and run someone against them in the next election.

We like to throw around the word, "Democracy" - like it is something magic - when, in fact, we are not a democracy and never have been. And we like to think that we have the power to elect our representatives when they are chosen for us - by two PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS, no less. They do allow us to pick between the two they give us, however. In the Democratic Party the delegates aren't even required to vote for the ones we pick in the primaries, and that is before the SUPER DELEGATES get their shot.

Yes, we are the sheep that just follow along behind whichever party has the most money to spend on TV ads in that election cycle - - tell the people the same lie over and over and they will believe it. (The Republicans have maintained themselves in power for years by always have some "demon" to throw at us and our fear as their ace in the hole - now it is terrorist, always someone.

We use to have the best educational system in the world - at least we like to tell ourselves that. But that system is long gone - and we have a people being turned out without that very basic of any educational systems - the ability to take all the information, sort through it and arrive at a conclusion by thinking for ourselves.

Yes, this bastion of freedom and democracy - long live freedom and democracy. - jb

[JRScott]

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. This is straight from Pew's website:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1207/republican-party-identification-slips-nationwide-pennsylvania-specter-switch

Moreover, no reputable pollster would pitch "conservatives" vs. "liberals." That's just not credible polling science because each of those groups are actually factions of the Republican and Democrat Parties, not parties or entities in themselves.

Again you link one to the GOP specifically, despite claims the GOP is not a conservative party and has not been for decades. You mistake rhetoric for action. Independents are generally more conservative than the GOP. (Huckabee for example by his record is not conservative, nor were most of the GOP presidential candidates....only Thompson really filled that bill).

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/517.pdf

Page 19

I can't find a newer one but there it says 37% conservative compared to 19% Liberal, which in that case makes those that are moderate or neither more numerous (39%). However it is consistent with what I said above in the those who claim to be conservative outnumber liberals 2 to 1.

My point in news organizations is you only have one that has any leaning to the right, while all of the others lean to left. Thus you are dividing a smaller group among more stations thus it is natural their viewership would be lower. I'm not saying Fox is fair and balanced after all it has a clear right wing bent, with perhaps Shepherd Smith and Bill O'Reilly the more moderate members.

[jeb]

However it is consistent with what I said above in the those who claim to be conservative outnumber liberals 2 to 1.

Could this be because the Republican Hypocrites have for over 40 years now linked everything that is bad to the "Liberal Democrats", thereby discouraging anyone to call themselves a liberal and not taking into account what a liberal might stand for.

It has always amazed me that people call themselves "Christians" and then call themselves "Conservative Christians" - the greatest oxymoron in the history of the world seeing as how Christ was the man of peace, the man of turn the other cheek, the man of help your fellow man.

These people then support war - even an illegal war - and vote against every single program meant to help those that need help.

IF one breaks down the basics of the GOP it seems to seems to come out, "I have mine, to hell with you."

It would seem that to be a true Christian one would by far be more in line with the "liberals" out there - but we all know those "liberals" are the reason for everything bad in this world, the Republican Hypocrites tell us so. - jb