Big 3 bailout folds

[Bandit]

People,
One of the great things about the U.S. is our ability to adapt and change. As other countries standard of living rises because of manufactured goods so will the education and standard of living of foreign nations. When that occurs and knowledge is gained there will be demand for higher wages. If we look at China and other economies they have yet to experience what we have already experienced. Think? China will be at the hands of OIL and energy just like America. While the U.S. retools for next age of energy they will end up buying from us the components to retool. Agricultural boom, Industrial boom, technology boom.. Next? Energy production/conservation/utilization boom?

Simple example.. Look at the Olympics and the pollution issues. America went through the same issue with several of our large cities, rivers and lakes. Lastly, if American's can't afford to buy the products because loss of jobs the cost will have to be lowered or sent else where. Either you move to next generation yourself or your forced there.. The U.S is being forced there with a whole different kind of workforce needed.

LOL. That is so true but the direction the US is headed is not positive and has not been positive for 30 years. The workforce needed? we dont need a workforce at this time...it was given to china & mexico.

[Bandit]

actually, trickle down economics does work. The problem is... Everyone was expecting a stream of revenue, when it's obvious that it was supposed to be, and is, only a trickle.

rofl

[Mi Bankruptcy]

Cmon Bandit..We both no it was not "given" It was purchased. Either by policy makers or or the Big three that flew to other countries LOL.. Maybe now that they have to sell their jets and ride commercial they will not be so eager to fly around and make those big deals.

[Bandit]

Cmon Bandit..We both no it was not "given" It was purchased. Either by policy makers or or the Big three that flew to other countries LOL.. Maybe now that they have to sell their jets and ride commercial they will not be so eager to fly around and make those big deals.

Now that it is backfiring on the ones who made those deals. They wont take bailout money if it means giving up a leer jet.

They knew what they were doing all along & It doesn't really matter though because they made their money. You call it purchasing which is true, I call it selling out to your country, which is also true.

All we are experiencing is what Mexicans & Chinese have always known as normal. I hope we dont lose our child labor laws in all of this.

[Tom_Mi]

Did you ever go into a small town and 'look' at the massive old houses from the 1800-1900s? Huge brick homes with decorations over all the windows...things you'd never see in a house built today.

They were able to be built because there were 2 classes of people in america. Doctors and above had the huge houses. Everyone else lived in a farm cabin or under a bridge. The industrial revolution created the middle class...and it built the REST of the houses in that town.

I've been a Republican all my life, and my job (IT Consulting) is not in jeopardy right now. Nevertheless I'm am convinced that Federal Republicans have manipulated my faith to get me to sign on to a purely Oligarchist agenda which will foolishly dismantle this country's economy.

We can go ahead and let the country puke out it's middle class like a dog that ate grass...but those people can't ALL be accountants and lawyers. All of humanity can't be a CEO...somebody's gotta make something or perform the service.

That's my fundamental problem here. We all have brothers/cousins etc who are wonderful people but will never be an Executive. For years I've walked into a voting booth and pi$$ed on them to save a nickel in taxes. I thought somehow God favors these people who would never, ever, compromise "free enterprise" to show compassion for others less fortunate...things people of faith are supposed to hold in high regard.

never again.

[Bandit]

Did you ever go into a small town and 'look' at the massive old houses from the 1800-1900s? Huge brick homes with decorations over all the windows...things you'd never see in a house built today.

They were able to be built because there were 2 classes of people in america. Doctors and above had the huge houses. Everyone else lived in a farm cabin or under a bridge.

The industrial revolution created the middle class...and it built the REST of the houses in that town.

I've been a Republican all my life, and my job (IT Consulting) is not in jeopardy right now. Nevertheless I'm am convinced that Federal Republicans have manipulated my faith to get me to sign on to a purely Oligarchist agenda which will foolishly dismantle this country's economy.

We can go ahead and let the country puke out it's middle class like a dog that ate grass...but those people can't ALL be accountants and lawyers. All of humanity can't be a CEO...somebody's gotta make something or perform the service.

That's my fundamental problem here. We all have brothers/cousins etc who are wonderful people but will never be an Executive.

For years I've walked into a voting booth and pi$$ed on them to save a nickel in taxes. I thought somehow God favors these people who would never, ever, compromise "free enterprise" to show compassion for others less fortunate...things people of faith are supposed to hold in high regard.

never again.

You are right on track Tom, but don't think for two seconds the dems are any better. I too notice the old homes & how they were built to last for centuries. Today you get cardboard & plastic.
They have renamed 'free trade' to 'unfair trade' and I could not believe my ears on CNN today.

I always get a kick out of how the USA claims to be bible Christian run/founded & yet they are so rotten & crooked while the religious right are the worse hypocrites in politics.

I used to think in lame mans terms & went along with the government, but now I say it like it is & some people can't handle it. The country is indeed puking out the middle class & that is why we are a dying nation. The poor in China & Mexico never rose above didley squat and made just enough to eat.

It was indeed the USA industrial revolution that made it happen to give the poor the opportunity to rise above poverty & it took the unions to say ENOUGH. All the computer generation has done is produced a bunch of whimps along with politics and has destroyed american jobs. Now they too are getting the end results of 30 years of unfair trade.

That is indeed the fundamental problem. You would work your way up from floor sweeping to be an executive. However, with unfair trade, they give those jobs to college punks who know nothing to remove the ones who gave their sweat, blood & tears to about age 50 because they believed that company would be there for them when they get old. Now it belongs to China & thoise college punks screwed themselves. The United States of China. What comes around goes around.

I get so mad about this.

Care for the widows & elderly? yah right! not any more they don't. My Grandmother still gets 100 dollars a month from grandpas railroad retirement pension...most of them are dead today.

[Hillbilly]

Mi Bankruptcy "If we look at China and other economies..."

Yes, DO look at what is happening to China's economy today, just like the U.S. their own set of dominoes are now also falling, falling, falling,
click'ety click'ety click'ety click'ety >>>> Millions will be losing their industrial jobs, returning to the farms where most will be doomed to die like so many flies.
There may someday again be Chinese market for the latest in U.S. technological developments, but don't hold your breath, for the next few years they are going to be struggling with their own massive internal problems, with even the wealthy wondering where their next meal is coming from.
That is what I getting at in my comments about being the "wealthy" occupant of the last occupied house on the block. You may through clever foreign investments have made millions, but those millions will now only be fit for toilet paper, when your neighbors are all starved to death, or too beaten down and weak to even make an effort to provide you with your expected comforts any more.
What good is a handful of greasy $1000 bills, when there is no longer an open store or business within 50 miles? and a $1000 won't buy even a single loaf of bread?

America retools? with what? and how? Credit is dried up, Our trust has been destroyed, the infrastructure for production has long since been allowed to deteriorate,
or was shipped abroad, the factory buildings now emptied and abandoned for decades, or were bulldozed into empty fields
(the fate of the huge plant that I spent 30 years of my life in)
The generation that is now coming in has never experienced working in industry, and is almost totally lacking in the skills and experience that only decades of hands on mechanical experience can impart. I grew up on a farm, getting my hands dirty working on trucks, tractors, bailers, and mowers from the time I was 8, I took that know-how into my factory job. Most teenagers in this generation have never even held a wrench, much less used an arc welder, lathe, drill-press, or even know what an "Erector Set" is, and these are the ones that you are now expecting to just step in and in the space of a year or two, or ten "retool" America into a competitive industrial power?
Looking around at my dozens of nephews, most don't even have enough skills, or drive of any kind, to even wipe their own ***** properly.

American people have forgotten the real strengths that this country was built upon, hard work, mutual respect, and the ready and willing support of one another.
We, as a people, have abandoned those high principals, and gradually became generally complacent, pampered, spoiled, greedy, stupid, and just plain lazy.
No one wanting to do the "dirty" work, those jobs just got passed on down the line, till we have fifty little Lord Flauntleroy's all in a line, dressed in their spotless business suits, and one worker on the end with a wrench in his greasy hand doing all of the work that they are all getting paid for.
Now that greasy no class worker at the end of the line has retired, or finally just dropped dead from all the health problems brought on by doing all that dirty work that supported those fifty Flaunteroy's, he is not going to be so easily replaced.

Not to end on a negative note, I believe we can survive and prosper, but to do so we are going to have to expect and require much more accountability to one another, and of our children, barring that we are all doomed together.

[Overmylimit]

there were 2 classes of people in america. Doctors and above had the huge houses. Everyone else lived in a farm cabin or under a bridge. The industrial revolution created the middle class...and it built the REST of the houses in that town.

This is straight truth, at one time there were only the rich and the poor and not much in between....and those days will be here again very soon.

I used to be a Union Worker, sure the pay was great but I worked way harder than a lot of the guys and for what? we all got paid the same. Even when the contracts came up for renewal they (Union Reps) would ask for more than we really wanted just to put the push on the Company, and sometimes it would backfire. So I had my fill and started my own business.

[Mi Bankruptcy]

Mi Bankruptcy "If we look at China and other economies..."

Yes, DO look at what is happening to China's economy today, just like the U.S. their own set of dominoes are now also falling, falling, falling,
click'ety click'ety click'ety click'ety >>>> Millions will be losing their industrial jobs, returning to the farms where most will be doomed to die like so many flies.
There may someday again be Chinese market for the latest in U.S. technological developments, but don't hold your breath, for the next few years they are going to be struggling with their own massive internal problems, with even the wealthy wondering where their next meal is coming from.
That is what I getting at in my comments about being the "wealthy" occupant of the last occupied house on the block. You may through clever foreign investments have made millions, but those millions will now only be fit for toilet paper, when your neighbors are all starved to death, or too beaten down and weak to even make an effort to provide you with your expected comforts any more.
What good is a handful of greasy $1000 bills, when there is no longer an open store or business within 50 miles? and a $1000 won't buy even a single loaf of bread?

America retools? with what? and how? Credit is dried up, Our trust has been destroyed, the infrastructure for production has long since been allowed to deteriorate,
or was shipped abroad, the factory buildings now emptied and abandoned for decades, or were bulldozed into empty fields
(the fate of the huge plant that I spent 30 years of my life in)
The generation that is now coming in has never experienced working in industry, and is almost totally lacking in the skills and experience that only decades of hands on mechanical experience can impart. I grew up on a farm, getting my hands dirty working on trucks, tractors, bailers, and mowers from the time I was 8, I took that know-how into my factory job. Most teenagers in this generation have never even held a wrench, much less used an arc welder, lathe, drill-press, or even know what an "Erector Set" is, and these are the ones that you are now expecting to just step in and in the space of a year or two, or ten "retool" America into a competitive industrial power?
Looking around at my dozens of nephews, most don't even have enough skills, or drive of any kind, to even wipe their own ***** properly.

American people have forgotten the real strengths that this country was built upon, hard work, mutual respect, and the ready and willing support of one another.
We, as a people, have abandoned those high principals, and gradually became generally complacent, pampered, spoiled, greedy, stupid, and just plain lazy.
No one wanting to do the "dirty" work, those jobs just got passed on down the line, till we have fifty little Lord Flauntleroy's all in a line, dressed in their spotless business suits, and one worker on the end with a wrench in his greasy hand doing all of the work that they are all getting paid for.
Now that greasy no class worker at the end of the line has retired, or finally just dropped dead from all the health problems brought on by doing all that dirty work that supported those fifty Flaunteroy's, he is not going to be so easily replaced.

Not to end on a negative note, I believe we can survive and prosper, but to do so we are going to have to expect and require much more accountability to one another, and of our children, barring that we are all doomed together.

Sorry Hillbilly, I lost your point? If you think I advocate America losing jobs your wrong. I am in my 30's I have rebuilt engines, planted and harvested corn(in Michigan). I also know how to build a computer from the ground up. I know how to install an operating system and how to adjust BIOS for the optimal through put of the RAM I selected to use in the computer I built.

Just because the tools are not our grandfathers or Great Grand fathers tools or methods does not mean skilled labors or machinist are gone forever. Students now use C.A.D. to cut wood/patterns which was once done by hand. My point about the Chinese and these other nations is they will all be facing the exact issue we are facing in the next 50years if not sooner.

Do not confuse using tools as a need to get dirty. Also, when there are no more plumbers, carpenters to do the work of yesterday market rates will move people to those areas. I have also remodeled those old homes and am amazed at some of the carpentry, I am also amazed at how several of those old homes tend not to be squared. Yet the Greeks and Egyptians knew how to do it. Everything moves in cycles.

[Hillbilly]

Hi there Mi, I'm a born and raised Michigander myself, 57 years there, Fisher Body craftsman / Oldsmobile employee, now retired to the hills of good old Kentucky.
Great to hear that you are a hands-on person, our country needs a lot more like you.

Using C.A.D design and advanced technical tools to design things is one thing, but after the white collar work is finished, someone has to get down in the pits and do the assembly, and once production is up and ready to run, a workforce with at least a modicum of mechanical skills will be required, as most every widget still requires some human assembly, mouse traps little, advanced electrical/mechanical propulsion systems, a Lot more.
Trying to find 18-30 year olds that are both motivated and "clean" has became a real problem.
One may hope for China's sake (and ours too) that they do resolve this present economic crises, to deal effectively with the looming energy issue, of course if industry shrinks dramatically (and it well could) energy shortage may no longer be the major problem.


Thankfully, I saw "the handwriting on the wall" of my Lansing MI. G.M. plant around 1978 and I determined that I would never so much as allow my son to set foot in that place.
I saw to it that he got a good college education, and although I cannot mention his name here, he is now ranked among the top Professional Engineers in the entire State of Michigan, and has, and does hold many prestigious positions and honors in his profession.
I only say this so you understand that you would be greatly mistaken to think that I'm just an old fuddy-duddy just spouting off with no knowledge of, or appriciation of modern methods of design and construction. ( And of course, as his father, I am just bursting with pride in him )

[Bandit]

Sorry Hillbilly, I lost your point? If you think I advocate America losing jobs your wrong. I am in my 30's I have rebuilt engines, planted and harvested corn(in Michigan). I also know how to build a computer from the ground up. I know how to install an operating system and how to adjust BIOS for the optimal through put of the RAM I selected to use in the computer I built.

Just because the tools are not our grandfathers or Great Grand fathers tools or methods does not mean skilled labors or machinist are gone forever. Students now use C.A.D. to cut wood/patterns which was once done by hand. My point about the Chinese and these other nations is they will all be facing the exact issue we are facing in the next 50years if not sooner.

Do not confuse using tools as a need to get dirty. Also, when there are no more plumbers, carpenters to do the work of yesterday market rates will move people to those areas. I have also remodeled those old homes and am amazed at some of the carpentry, I am also amazed at how several of those old homes tend not to be squared. Yet the Greeks and Egyptians knew how to do it. Everything moves in cycles.

It isn't about tools. They may not be square but they will withstand the elements for another century while modern homes start to crumble after 5 years. This 100 year old house I am in was very square when it was buiilt but over time is has settled and moved along the earth a good 4 inches yet it is worth every effort to jack it up and to keep it around.

My question is , where do you draw the line?
Are you going to rebuild engines & harvest corn for minimum wage? How low are you willing to go just so the rich can become richer off of your skill & labor? Why not just work for a load of bread a day. That is all you need anyway to survive for awhile.
Going back to the greeks & egyptians, they had no problem cutting out your tongue & burying you alive when you feet finally gave out from 40 years of moving bricks in your bare feet. but the kIngs lived well.

It isn't that the jobs are gone forever, it is in this ridiculous system that does not want you to get paid well or ever get anywhere in life & keep you begging for a minimum wage job, while the owners & execs spend two months a year on their sissy boy yachts with the politicians getting drunk off the blood of those in poverty. Then they whine about giving out unemployment.

I give the bolded part about 10 years. Then the elitists will have won their temporal bed as they sit in fear watching those in poverty die on their city camera computers. and who is to say that the USA gov. wont be using the military against its own people when they revolt just like they do in China in the near future? China has no problem with slaughtering 50,000 humans in one day.

There is nothing wrong with CAD, but there is something wrong when the guys putting the steel together have to fight for their wages because there bosses kept stealing & politicians keep taking the top for themselves. These companies aren't going broke over wages, they are going broke from thieves in high places who want it all for themselves -Like, insurance companies, lawyers & politicians.

[Mi Bankruptcy]

I agree. However, not to take anything away from my dad. He was a Janitor at G.M making $23.00. Honestly what company pays a janitor $23.00. He retired about 5 years ago. My dad was a real estate investor and such.. However, some of the downfall of these automakers is some the crazy benefit deals and pay that is provided. The only thing I am worried about is all the retirees. I don't want any retiree to have to worry about their lifestyle because of this auto crisis. Hillbilly.. I sent you a PM

[Bandit]

Hi there Mi, I'm a born and raised Michigander myself, 57 years there, Fisher Body craftsman / Oldsmobile employee, now retired to the hills of good old Kentucky.
Great to hear that you are a hands-on person, our country needs a lot more like you.

I work with a lady whose husband just lost out finally Olds/Pont. He worked in an oldsmobile paint shop and the union finally stopped fighting for them. The paint shop still went under with no union. Why, bcause their boss was a thief and did not care two hoots about the cancer causing paint shop. He gave them 30 years and now retires with a small pension and cancer in his lungs.

Using C.A.D design and advanced technical tools to design things is one thing, but after the white collar work is finished, someone has to get down in the pits and do the assembly, and once production is up and ready to run, a workforce with at least a modicum of mechanical skills will be required, as most every widget still requires some human assembly, mouse traps little, advanced electrical/mechanical propulsion systems, a Lot more.
Trying to find 18-30 year olds that are both motivated and "clean" has became a real problem.

Right again and we keep finding that it is the ones who lay down in the dirty hole & freezing weather are the ones who are always supposed to give it up or die. You can't just have people behind a computer doing no production making all the profit no more than only the execs taking it all. It will fail every time.

One may hope for China's sake (and ours too) that they do resolve this present economic crises, to deal effectively with the looming energy issue, of course if industry shrinks dramatically (and it well could) energy shortage may no longer be the major problem.


Thankfully, I saw "the handwriting on the wall" of my Lansing MI. G.M. plant around 1978 and I determined that I would never so much as allow my son to set foot in that place.

I saw to it that he got a good college education, and although I cannot mention his name here, he is now ranked among the top Professional Engineers in the entire State of Michigan, and has, and does hold many prestigious positions and honors in his profession.
I only say this so you understand that you would be greatly mistaken to think that I'm just an old fuddy-duddy just spouting off with no knowledge of, or appriciation of modern methods of design and construction. ( And of course, as his father, I am just bursting with pride in him )

Not at all would I be mistaken. I knew you had it going right from the start and had followed this for many years and have the insight as to how things got this way. The handwriting was well on the wall starting back in the 70's as you mention all over the midwest and it took this long for it to come to a screeching hault and now we will all pay dearly. A lot of kids today who weren't even around then do not have a clue as to where & when the problem really began. They think it just started 5 years ago.

[Mi Bankruptcy]

The Chinese have seen a significant increase in their middle class and the amount of people that are starting come out of poverty. Although their is allot still. However, China has not been innovative. They have done like the Japanese and copied what the U.S has done. However, atleast the Japanese had quality. Not so with China. This is where my whole argument is going. The U.S. will now have to create a new market of something that offers value. What market? I dont know? The new market will have to sustain us for another 30-40 years. When the new market is created we will once again be exporters of that product. being turbines for windmills, solar panels or what ever is created It may be the best battery for the fuel efficient automobile. The U.S. has always been an exporter and always will be. It's just going to be a long road until that time arrives. Especially when the U.S stops paying so high for services because people can't afford the services provided by the service industry ( financial, hotel, restaurant,etc)

[Bandit]

I agree. However, not to take anything away from my dad. He was a Janitor at G.M making $23.00. Honestly what company pays a janitor $23.00. He retired about 5 years ago. My dad was a real estate investor and such.. However, some of the downfall of these automakers is some the crazy benefit deals and pay that is provided. The only thing I am worried about is all the retirees. I don't want any retiree to have to worry about their lifestyle because of this auto crisis. Hillbilly.. I sent you a PM

23.00 and hour is not that much money for someone who probably spent their whole life working & being faithful to the same place in this time. Do you think they should put a cap on what people make? Like janitors should only get 10.00 an hour working for the same place for 30 years? A janitor works just as hard as the guys on the line do cleaning & picking up everyone else sh*t. It is back breaking work. If he were in this right now, do you think he should only get about 10 or 15 bucks an hour at 60 years old?
My dad retired only making $4.50 an hour because he gave 30 of his best years to Wheelobrator and he was only one out of two who run and repair his machine (no one else could do it)- the company left & he got nothing but had to settle for minimun wage at his age of 60 in a dumpy wire factory 20 hours per week. Same thing happened with Uniroyal.

Or am I not understanding.

I understand what you mean about the retirees & agree...I just dont follow the part about your dad because it sounds like you think he made too much money. (?)