Big 3 bailout folds

[Bandit]

Again, for equal products, you choice of the over seas $699 PC is going to transfer US wealth to a foreign manufacturer, and that one less sale may be the one that causes a competing US firm to make the business decision to pink-slip another 300 workers.
Now repeat that scenario a hundred or more times a day.
You saved $800 on one purchase, but karma being, down the road, it could end up costing you your job, your car, your home, and any hope of ever regaining the lifestyle you once enjoyed.
Make no mistake, there is always a price to pay, and its usually not the one appearing on the price tag.

Exactly. Your previous post is also right on the money.

[Bandit]

I should mention that my daughter and my son-in-law are both employed, each at a wage that is less than what I started at in 1968! But they are glad that they found jobs!
We got into this "Free market" race........straight to the bottom.

You are so in tune with reality. What our economy has proven is trickle down economics does not work.

[On The Brink]

Again, for equal products, you choice of the over seas $699 PC is going to transfer US wealth to a foreign manufacturer, and that one less sale may be the one that causes a competing US firm to make the business decision to pink-slip another 300 workers.
Now repeat that scenario a hundred or more times a day.
You saved $800 on one purchase, but karma being, down the road, it could end up costing you your job, your car, your home, and any hope of ever regaining the lifestyle you once enjoyed.
Make no mistake, there is always a price to pay, and its usually not the one appearing on the price tag.

So basically your saying I should pay twice the price for the same or less quality to be a "good american"? Are you kidding me? I should just fork out my "HARD EARNED CASH" out of blind loyalty and suck it up and eat the loss because some union worker will not budge an inch and make $45 or $50 an hour instead of $68 an hour?
Unions come in and overtake a business that a man had a vision to make and has built from the ground up with his blood sweat and tears, jack up his costs, wages etc. etc. then after the business cant afford to to maintain the "UNIONS WAGE STANDARDS"
the person or company either folds his dream or moves it to a place that can keep it alive. Doesn't sound like the union cared as much about the workers as they pretended to does it? This is about the same as organize crime, get your foot in the door, get the owner in a stranglehold, and either overtake it or squeeze every drop of value out of it and then walk away from it. As long as the fat cats receive there union dues doesnt really matter what happens to the workers does it! Union bosses say "Hey employee go stand on the side of the road UNPAYED hold up signs and obstruct business and we promise we wont give an inch for you even if it costs you your job"
Ive known alot of union workers over the years and have seen major abuse of emplyers through it! Example : Worker comes in and clocks his buddies in for the day on a sunday earning triple time and not even actually going to work. Go sit at the bar and laugh. Boy where do I sign up for this because i'm definately in the wrong line of work?

[Flamingo]

but the question is, why are we reducing pay when prices keep going up & parts are being made cheaper in china & mexico?
we aint just going to be getting reduced pay, we will all be lucky if we are getting minimum wage with not a drop of benefits. The very thing that made this country strong has been given away and that was the moral & value of employees who work hard and make the rich money should in return be taken care of.

That value has not existed for 20 years and here we are paying for it finally.

Those people who take a half cut in pay will lose thier homes and be in BK either way. It is a no win situation for those who do the physical labor.

The major factories in China are starting to close...CNN last night showed China's largest toy factory which supplies almost all the toys in the US has closed leaving thousands out of work and since jobs are scarce also in China, forcing people back to the fields to work to survive. Just wait until more start closing. Everybody better sit back and buckle their seat belts good and tight cause we are in for one heck of a ride through all of this and the recovery is going to take years and years affecting us all horrifically in the pocket all due the greed and stupidity of borrowers and lenders in the mortgage market.

[Dirk Squarejaw]

Mad Max here we come!

Seriously though, this doesn't surprise me one bit. My parents were both UAW workers and retired through GM and I have heard many stories about idiotic moves the union would pull for workers on a local level so I'm not surprised they took their ball and went home. The way I look at it, they should be glad that the workers would have something instead of the potential nothing that thousands may end up with if GM and/or Chrysler folds. The government has been hesitant since day one with this bailout and there has not been a "we want to negotiate"-vibe from them at all. Its been very cut and dried that they get $x if the automakers agree to their terms. Then, the union comes in and says "NO". Good job guys. I hope you enjoy no wages instead of cut wages.

[banca rotta]

but the question is, why are we reducing pay when prices keep going up & parts are being made cheaper in china & mexico?
we aint just going to be getting reduced pay, we will all be lucky if we are getting minimum wage with not a drop of benefits. The very thing that made this country strong has been given away and that was the moral & value of employees who work hard and make the rich money should in return be taken care of.

That value has not existed for 20 years and here we are paying for it finally.

Those people who take a half cut in pay will lose thier homes and be in BK either way. It is a no win situation for those who do the physical labor.

Good question and not even Obama can fix it. What the auto workers should have done is accept that in a dynamic economy some industries just simply die. This is nothing new. The whole world saw this coming for years. The workers should have retrained themselves for other careers.

In my profession I have turned down good money 10 years ago because what I was doing then was dying and would be dead by today and it turns out I was correct.

The auto workers should accept what they get now when Bush gives them some TARP money and over time just gradually leave the industry if they feel they are underpaid.

[banca rotta]

Big Picture...we have NOT been paying less while the wealthy skimmed all the cream off the top for 2 decades. It was made cheaper overseas to take advantage of poor people and that is exactly what has destroyed this country. Now we produce nothing and all that money was given to another country. That is the big picture.

And I agree with this to a point. I agree with the free world markets if nations like China and Mexico for example had labor standards and allowed unions as we do. Not to mention they need to enforce piracy.

We need the world to grow like our country so

1-They can buy more American made product or what ever is left that we still make, visit America, come to Disney, etc. and spend the money they earned back here &
2-It's less likely that we will be going to war with a developed democracy vs. a p!ss poor country.

Until we make their labor standards more reasonable we should tariff imports.

[Bandit]

So basically your saying I should pay twice the price for the same or less quality to be a "good american"? Are you kidding me? I should just fork out my "HARD EARNED CASH" out of blind loyalty and suck it up and eat the loss because some union worker will not budge an inch and make $45 or $50 an hour instead of $68 an hour?
Unions come in and overtake a business that a man had a vision to make and has built from the ground up with his blood sweat and tears, jack up his costs, wages etc. etc. then after the business cant afford to to maintain the "UNIONS WAGE STANDARDS"
the person or company either folds his dream or moves it to a place that can keep it alive. Doesn't sound like the union cared as much about the workers as they pretended to does it? This is about the same as organize crime, get your foot in the door, get the owner in a stranglehold, and either overtake it or squeeze every drop of value out of it and then walk away from it. As long as the fat cats receive there union dues doesnt really matter what happens to the workers does it! Union bosses say "Hey employee go stand on the side of the road UNPAYED hold up signs and obstruct business and we promise we wont give an inch for you even if it costs you your job"
Ive known alot of union workers over the years and have seen major abuse of emplyers through it! Example : Worker comes in and clocks his buddies in for the day on a sunday earning triple time and not even actually going to work. Go sit at the bar and laugh. Boy where do I sign up for this because i'm definately in the wrong line of work?

No. you should not buy anything american made. You should buy japanese & chinese made, because there ISN'T anything american made. duh

Since you wish to blame everything on the unions, the very thing that kept the whips & chains off your back, then what is your excuse for all the hundreds of buisnesses today that have no union, never had a union, and have died??

People aren't clocking others in for triple time like you say because that is againt the law. There are very few places getting wages like that and you are lucky if you get minimum wage working a 40 hour week today.

but! you can bet your bottom dollar that these college yuppies who do not know a thing about business, who wiped their butts all over those with seniority, gave in to the only moral eithic that made this country thrive, just to feed their own selfish agendas pleasing the lying wealthy, and now all you have is a bunch of plastic throw away junk on the market...only to find themselves in the same lifeless position that they dumped on those 20 years ago.

[Bandit]

And I agree with this to a point. I agree with the free world markets if nations like China and Mexico for example had labor standards and allowed unions as we do. Not to mention they need to enforce piracy.

We need the world to grow like our country so

1-They can buy more American made product or what ever is left that we still make, visit America, come to Disney, etc. and spend the money they earned back here &
2-It's less likely that we will be going to war with a developed democracy vs. a p!ss poor country.

Until we make their labor standards more reasonable we should tariff imports.

but the intentions for all of this was never to get the global economy to grow they way we knew it in the industrial age in the USA. all along the elitist & politicians knew it would fail and the agenda was to bring everyone around the globe into one global economy of ancient slavery.

I have been saying this for over 20 years when I saw all of the fathers in my hometown lose their factor jobs and had to go to work for the last 15 years of their lives making minimum wage and no benefits.

Who got ahead from all of this giving american jobs to foreign lands? It was not the global middle class or the poor.

When you stop viewing it as a USA thing (us & threm) and see it as a global thing you realize that the USA sold out on purpose and now the people are going to get angry when they figure it out.

China will never care about its people being able to afford Disney and now the USA does not either. I doubt we will ever get that back. NObody cared for decades ,but now that the big corps. are dying, people are waking up.

[Bandit]

Good question and not even Obama can fix it. What the auto workers should have done is accept that in a dynamic economy some industries just simply die. This is nothing new. The whole world saw this coming for years. The workers should have retrained themselves for other careers.

In my profession I have turned down good money 10 years ago because what I was doing then was dying and would be dead by today and it turns out I was correct.

The auto workers should accept what they get now when Bush gives them some TARP money and over time just gradually leave the industry if they feel they are underpaid.

Sure they could do that with no problem because they would end up selling out to the global agenda, because why? They have been forced into it with no other options. Thus you cannot just blame the union if their hands are tied. Either way, auto workers will lose.
In 10 years auto workers may be lucky to be making minimum wage. Obama cant stop it and doesn't want to stop it. Congress allowed this all to happen to make their global rich buddies richer.

Why do we need chevy & ford anyway? Americans stoped buying amercian made 20 years ago.

[Bandit]

Mad Max here we come!

Seriously though, this doesn't surprise me one bit. My parents were both UAW workers and retired through GM and I have heard many stories about idiotic moves the union would pull for workers on a local level so I'm not surprised they took their ball and went home. The way I look at it, they should be glad that the workers would have something instead of the potential nothing that thousands may end up with if GM and/or Chrysler folds. The government has been hesitant since day one with this bailout and there has not been a "we want to negotiate"-vibe from them at all. Its been very cut and dried that they get $x if the automakers agree to their terms. Then, the union comes in and says "NO". Good job guys. I hope you enjoy no wages instead of cut wages.

Why dont they just settle for minimun wage then, like they do in Mexico? Of course the government is hesitant & why would you trust government to help slimy factory workers anyway?
Obviously the union is there but can't do anything to help them, Except to help them give up their income, homes, retirement & rights. This has been going on for 30 years with no union factories, so why only blame unions? So why even have a union if it cannot not help anyone at this time? Why have government if it doesn't help anyone? Government has GM right where they want them. Give it up or die.

so why dont your parents give up their union retirement & pensions if it is so idiotic. why should your parents get anything when they have done no work since they retired? ....ah, that is the track we are on today.

[Bandit]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]The major factories in China are starting to close...CNN last night showed China's largest toy factory which supplies almost all the toys in the US has closed leaving thousands out of work and since jobs are scarce also in China, forcing people back to the fields to work to survive. Just wait until more start closing. Everybody better sit back and buckle their seat belts good and tight cause we are in for one heck of a ride through all of this and the recovery is going to take years and years affecting us all horrifically in the pocket all due the greed and stupidity of borrowers and lenders in the mortgage market.

I know they are finally dying too. But this is where global government wants it fro now. They have built 5 star hotels and no one goes to them. Now the reprocussions of all of this global strategy will be heard from every land & the people are going to get very angry. We probably see a world depression adn with all the hostility I would not doubt a world war. I hope ti does not happen though.

The reason for this? TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS IS A LIE and does nto work. The only thing that works is letting the middle class thrive giving the poor an opportunity. Once you remove that, you have only Kings & peasants...and what do peasants do? They revolt against the rich.

Take on look at what the US government did to the family farmer. They made it impossible for them to compete and put them all out of business & now only the rich own all of the food in the land.

The auto industry is no different.
I know you are on track with all of this, Flamingo.

[Bandit]

One more thing, the economics text book only works when economics are allowed to function properly. Once you mix politics with economics, you can throw the economics text book into the garbage

now pardon me, I am going to go back to the christmas threads for awhile

[Mi Bankruptcy]

People,
One of the great things about the U.S. is our ability to adapt and change. As other countries standard of living rises because of manufactured goods so will the education and standard of living of foreign nations. When that occurs and knowledge is gained there will be demand for higher wages. If we look at China and other economies they have yet to experience what we have already experienced. Think? China will be at the hands of OIL and energy just like America. While the U.S. retools for next age of energy they will end up buying from us the components to retool. Agricultural boom, Industrial boom, technology boom.. Next? Energy production/conservation/utilization boom?

Simple example.. Look at the Olympics and the pollution issues. America went through the same issue with several of our large cities, rivers and lakes. Lastly, if American's can't afford to buy the products because loss of jobs the cost will have to be lowered or sent else where. Either you move to next generation yourself or your forced there.. The U.S is being forced there with a whole different kind of workforce needed.

[justbroke]

Actually, trickle down economics does work. The problem is... everyone was expecting a stream of revenue, when it's obvious that it was supposed to be, and is, only a trickle.