Bushes Prime time appeal

[fltoo]

Stop deflecting and address the issues. If you have a point then please make it.

Didn't you get my point? You accused HHM of criticizing to get his point across.

[Bandit]

Didn't you get my point? You accused HHM of criticizing to get his point across.

HHM has criticized me on a regular basis to attempt to prove people wrong. It does not work and that is nothing new.

You specifically said that no one goes hungry in the USA and that is false. You only show you do not know the facts when you say stuff like that. YOu also seem to have no clue that close to 30 million people are on the edge of starving in this country including 13 million children. Just because you are not hungry does not mean hunger does not exist.

Your opinion of bush is one thing but the fact remains his policies have all failed and so has his oil war.

I called you on it.

[Bandit]

You missed the housing collapse, predatory lending, deregulation,the bank failures, unemployment, and the bailouts. LOL

Try to be more accurate next time.

This is NOT a joke. The united states is in big trouble, so please stop making a joke out of it.

[Bandit]

The newspapers over the next few days will be plastered with all everyone needs to know on this situation. All I can say is after watching Bush speak last night, I remembered listening to my mother (who lived through the Depression in her early teens) tell me about the soup kitchens and what occurred at that time. We are on the verge of that occurring again if something is not done somewhere and all of us, as he said, will be worse off than we are right now. And then after he finished speaking there was an immediate image of David Blane hanging upside down in Central Park - very appropriately described a lot of things.

Yes we are on the virge of it happening again and anyone watching with an honest heart will know this.

[Bandit]

Actually it could be worse than the 1930s.

There is several big differences.

1. In the 1930s we were largely Energy Independent. In fact keep in mind that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 because we stopped shipping oil to them (as well as other goods but oil was the main reason). Today we are Energy Dependent. Without energy we can't revitalize industry as we need to to come out of a Depression.

2. In 1930s the national debt was 16.2 billion. Today the national debt is 9.72 trillion. This does not count the 53 trillion in unfunded entitlement programs going forward that are kept off official balance sheets. By the 1940s our debt had tripled to help the government pay for Depression era programs. We simply can't afford to triple the debt.

3. In 1930s our money was backed by gold. Today its not backed by anything.....

4. China has told its banks to stop lending us money. They are the largest creditor of the United States, (Second largest is Saudi Arabia). Without such loans it is impossible to do the government programs similar to the 30s to pull folks out of the depression.

5. If corporations fail people will lose their jobs. As folks lose their jobs they have less disposable income to donate to charities and good causes. As such these programs will run dry within 6 months of the start of a major Depression. If you want to invest in anything for the next year, buy non perishable food for yourself and your family with the goal of having a year's supply on hand eventually but don't go in debt to do so. Then rotate on a regular basis but keep that year's supply in the future best you can.

However even giving you these 5 points, I think the bail out is worse because it will not avert these effects and we can't afford the additional debt.

Think about it, they've been bailing out these companies and its not helping. More of the same will not change the equation. The problem is they are afraid, afraid of what really needs to be done. To many of our politicians think short term and in truth there is no short term solution. It will probably take 10 years to pull us completely out of the problems we face, but only if the government is willing to let the people do.

Very well put together and factual.

I see some people here have forgotten how the entire globe shut down when two little buildings fell in NY harbor a few years ago and yet they say it can never happen again. (not in reference to you here)

What we are actually doing is the little guy is getting stuck paying for these monster debts that the government bails out. I truly believe this is all about globalization- bring all nations under one economic collapse. The only way to do it is to bring the american people down to the same level as other countries and into poverty.

Some 'americans' dont seem to have the global vison that is taking place. The 30's again involved the world So in a round about way the differences you mention are true- making the possibilites worse than the 30's

Well thought out post, JRScott.

[Bandit]

I respectively disagree.

Woodrow Wilson and FDR did far more damage really, and what is coming from their failed policies will make this look like a picnic.

How much debt did WW & FDR put us into? compared to dick&dub?

he failed perhaps because we were not ready for a global role?

now we are.

What do you think?

[fltoo]

This is NOT a joke. The united states is in big trouble, so please stop making a joke out of it.

Of course it is a joke. These are the "extras" that Banca forgot to mention in blaming Bush.

Well, I am skeptical about this 700 billion deal, but it doesn't look like we have a choice.

Hopefully, the gov will make some money on both the AIG bail out and in eventually selling these securities that no one else but the government could buy at this time. I think we are in correction period, who knows how long, where Americans and America have to stop living above their means.

There might be some good news for mortgagors. Might be something in this bill stating that if yours is in the package, the gov must modify the loans.

Hopefully, they tell us the full details.

[Bandit]

Of course it is a joke. These are the "extras" that Banca forgot to mention in blaming Bush.

Well, I am skeptical about this 700 billion deal, but it doesn't look like we have a choice.

Hopefully, the gov will make some money on both the AIG bail out and in eventually selling these securities that no one else but the government could buy at this time. I think we are in correction period, who knows how long, where Americans and America have to stop living above their means.

There might be some good news for mortgagors. Might be something in this bill stating that if yours is in the package, the gov must modify the loans.

Hopefully, they tell us the full details.

Ok. That is a little more like it.

back to bush and his failed oil war. If he had cared about this nation he would have spent those trillions of dollars helping the people in his own country instead of wounding another personal vendetta for which we still do not have the mastermind behind 9-11.

Then we would already be bailed out on the housing problem and could go on into the lending problems, problems- problems, problems problems instead of his silly 700 billion dollar plan...this is why he is to blame even though he did not directly cause the bad lending practice in housing markets.

neither oba or mcook is going to sign another bush failed deal in the making...not if they want to be the next rookie president...when after all none of them truly know for sure what they are doing & are more interested in their own personal political agendas than helping the people move forward.

[JRScott]

How much debt did WW & FDR put us into? compared to dick&dub?

he failed perhaps because we were not ready for a global role?

now we are.

What do you think?

Woodrow Wilson is the individual who created the Federal Reserve Bank, which ultimately is going to fail due to deflation of the Federal Reserve Note that they print since they are printing to much. The whole purpose of this was to remove from Congress their constitutional duty to oversee the monetary system of the United States. Which in turn has pretty much contributed to the spiraling debt of the United States in the last 70 years. See the Government doesn't print money, the Federal Reserve does and loans it to the government.

FDR is responsible for the fiasco of Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid. That 53 trillion in unfunded liabilities going forward is his legacy. See in 1939 FDR had the money from what should have been the Social Security Trust fund instead diverted to the General Fund. The Congress basically rubber stamped all of FDRs demands. Had that money remained in the trust fund there would be no problem meeting the obligations of those entitlement programs, without it they are practically insolvent.

[Bandit]

Ok JRScott. I see what you are saying now. WW/FDR basicly enabled Bush to get away with what he has done. You are seeing this from a long term perspective of damage and I must agree.

In the short term, no other president has caused or allowed this much damage or debt and accomplished so little. Bush will go down as the worse president ever when you see the short term failures, debt and corruption.

Wils and Roos basicly set us all up for long term failure but maybe not for the elitists and corrupt politicians (?). At least I have no problem acknowledging what has really failed this nation and don't pretend like we have a perfect little world of 50 states. Until leaders can admit the negative failures, they will never be able to fix them- as if some people don't really want the negative fixed, pretending all is well.

[JRScott]

Jimmy Carter.......what did he accomplish while in office?

[WhatMoney]

.
FDR is responsible for the fiasco of Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid. That 53 trillion in unfunded liabilities going forward is his legacy.

LBJ signed Medicare/Medicaid into law in 1965. FDR had nothing to do with it. You are off by 30 years and 4 presidents.

Social Security will be able to make its committed payouts until at least 2042, assuming no changes to the system are made. A few changes, including means testing, increasing the full retirement age, and a small increase in payroll taxes will make the system solvent for another 100 years. Your continued dire warnings about Social Security are foolish, since they assume no changes will ever be made to correct the relatively short term problem of retiring baby boomers.

As one who's been around twice as long as you, I've seen all the doomsayers make their gloomy predictions for many years. Where they all error is by making linear projections based on the present conditions. This is a fools game, trying to predict the future based on today's rules. The rules always change and modify or correct the conditions - and the sky never quite falls. But memories are short - and predicting the end of the world as we now know it is always a popular sport. A waste of time, but still popular for the masses.

I have a whole bookshelf of doom and gloom books, starting in the 1950's. Everyone has proven to be wrong. So we have another Depression - it's about time - not the end of the world. If you haven't lived excessively and leveraged yourself to kingdom come - you will barely notice it.

[JRScott]

SSI will not survive the current economic situation.

LBJ merely in many ways expanded FDRs programs. Without FDRs unconstitutional abuse of power and passage of the New Deal, there would not have been LBJ's programs.

SSI is easier to fix than Medicare and Medicaid. Of the 53 trillion of unfunded entitlement liabilities only 1/5th of that is SSI, the rest is Medicare and Medicaid. We will not be able to pay out until 2042. The fund will pay out more than goes in before 2020. Raising taxes will not solve the problem historical trend shows that regardless of what you charge for taxes revenue stream remains approximately the same % of GDP.

If the United States credit rating is lowered which can and possibly likely will happen within the next year then the debt and obligations increase many fold.

SSI could be fixed by allowing those born before 1953 to collect at age 65 and those born between 1954 and 1968 to collect at age 70. For those born after 1968 peg the age of benefits to life expectancy at birth + 3 years (Which actually is the age they used when they created SSI but they failed to codify it within the law).

Medicare and Medicaid I see no real way to save. The burden is to great and they only cover 12.6% of the population at a little over 500 billion per year. A National Health Care program would cost 6 to 8 times as much to cover everyone consuming about 150% of the current Federal Budget before any other spending. You could raise the age at which they are collected but that alone would not fix the shortfall for Medicare and Medicaid.

The United States is long overdue for a Great Depression. The first one occurred in the 1870s-1880s, then next in the 1930s (so about 50-60 years later). We are now nearly 70 years later and history does repeat itself when you don't learn from it and while my grandmother's generation learned well about the necessity of savings they did a poor job teaching my parents generation, who thus taught my generation poorly, who thus taught the next generation poorly.

If you are twice my age, you won't have to worry about collecting SSI in 30 years, because its unlikely you'd live that long.

[Flamingo]

And you know this how?

There's a lot of economists just like you that predicted 32 of the last 3 recessions.

I am admitting that there is a slowdown still not sure how to define it since it takes months after the recession to label it as one.

We will NEVER have another 30s style depression again! No one will let it happen. Congress will keep bailing out people and companies and wall street executives. We will continue to pay for it with higher taxes and living with an aging infrastructure.

In those days the poor starved to death while today some poor are obese and getting free state sponsered diabetes treatment.

Not trying to be down on the poor just making a point as to how different the 2 worlds are. Today's poor have cable TV and live in housing projects. During the depression they slept in the street.

I'm not predicting anything - it can occur; when was the last time you remember something like this occuring in your lifetime? I listened to my mother over the years growing up telling us what occurred during the Depression, the long recovery and how it affected America. When credit cards appeared on the scene, she said to be careful, don't use them and save your money wisely. Don't buy anything unless you need it. It's a shame that did not become a national motto for all to live by since credit cards came into existence. No matter who you are, you will suffer in some way from this occuring; the changes have started already and as I stated in my Soup Kitchen posting, you will see similar things occurring in addition to the already in place help of the Salvation Army or other charities.

One thing I learned in life that is true and will always stay true - "never say never."

[Flamingo]

I do stand corrected though.

The only time Flamingo's grim outlook may happen is God forbid our enemies attack us with a WMD. Let us pray this never happens.

My outlook is not grim - it's occuring right now except the street corner has turned into unemployed folks trying to sell on eBay to survive. The internet was not available in 1930.