wall street bailout

[maddog2112]

Has anyone been watching the wall street bailout? After all the money has been made giving out loans to people they knew wouldn`t be able to afford in the future, cutting up and selling mortgage pieces to banks all over the world. Now they want to let the taxpayers pick up the tab for all the defaults. Talk about a false economy!!! This has all come about by 30 years of republican deregulation. IE: lets let the fox guard the hen house. All these guys will get their debt payed for by tax payers, but all of us who just scrape by will pay back our debt with every extra disposable cent after our expenses that we have. It`s time to get rid of all these republican fascists we have in the whitehouse and at least try to change the direction of this country. It may not work, but this may be our last chance as a country to save the middle class and below.

[SiftedLikeWheat]

I hate to burst your bubble on blaming the Republicans, but if you do some research you will find that JOE BIDEN was the biggest backer of the 2005 Bankruptcy Reform Act because he supported all the big credit card companies registered in his state of Delaware. The Democrats are all "little guy" on their face, but in the back room deals they are just as much or more big business as the Republicans. They are all too rich and out of touch to run this country anymore!
They need to let everything fail and correct on its own; that's the only way these stupid and corrupt companies will learn any lessons. If we have to go through BK because of them, then they should, too!

[fltoo]

Biden was initially against the reform until MBNA, the biggest advocate for BK reform, pressured him into accepting it. MBNA owned Delaware.

There are many factors creating this mess, but if you have to point to the one person responsible for it, Greenspan is your man.

Also, redlining is against the law. But, it seems that reverse redlining was perfectly acceptable.

[JRScott]

YOu can't just blame the Republicans

This is as much the fault of the Democrats as the Republicans. They like to point fingers but they are both to blame.

I'm hoping there is no bailout. I think it would be the worse thing for America. If there is a bailout you might could see some third parties make larger inroads this election as I think voters will take it out on the incumbents.

[soleprop]

[justbroke]

Talk about a false economy!!! This has all come about by 30 years of republican deregulation. IE: lets let the fox guard the hen house.

I hate to burst your bubble too, but William Jefferson Clinton signed the current incantation of what is now the housing bubble, back in 1999.

This is a problem of the politics of "buying" votes, if you ask me. Politicians are notorious for not doing the right thing and saying no. They'd rather be popular than right.

I'll further agree with others who point to the Federal Reserve. Alan Greenspan is probably going to be known as the guy who did this to us. This economy has been "propped up" for years! This is nothing new folks. The Federal Reserve has played (toyed) with interest rates to keep the economy red hot. This was at the direction of the last few presidents.

The reason why the Government props up the economy is the same reason why we are all arguing, err conversing, about right here on-line and across many chat rooms across the world. Everyone wants it like it was in 1994-2004. Everyone. Even the news perpetuates this by having people come on TV and say "I had more money in my pocket when WJC was in office...".

We are market-driven and we are capitalist. For years, We, the People, have wanted our Hummer H2s, $1.65/gallon gasoline, $500K dream homes, and $100K HELOCs to spend on extravagant items. We were taught that this was normal, to have this much debt. The Banks sent us offers in the mail daily (I personally would receive at least 5 offers a day for lines of credit and/or pre-approved card offers). Everyone else was "living the dream" and we wanted to.

Don't even get me started.

I will continue to blame the Congress (103rd through current) for doing this. The Banks only did what was allowed. Banks and Corporations are capitalist and do it for share-holder value. Share-holders are who make Wall Street move.

Sure it was nice and we had a good time, but let's put the blame where it's due.

The current Congress can't let it fall on its own... which many believe the Market is designed to correct itself anyhow, and that's what it's doing. If Congress were to let it all fall, put our Economy back into the 1980s, then guess who will blame them for that?

Congress has no choice, really, if they want their jobs... and isn't that what it's all about. Men in power, always seek more power (or to retain the power they have). They will do whatever it takes, to maintain the status quo, or to elevate the influence.

That's right... I said it!

[Mi Bankruptcy]

The only thing I really want to know is how much of these investment/finance companies have foreign investors?

For instance.. if most of the investors are from china, Japan or UK and allot of the money invested in property sold as assets in the United States, does this mean we(U.S) just bought back some of our country with tax payers dollars?

I am thinking about a staggering statistic I heard not too long ago about how much of the United States is owned or financed from other nations?

Does anyone see where I am going here? I could be way off.. I just have not heard a peep about foreign owners or investors.

[justbroke]

For instance.. if most of the investors are from china, Japan or UK and allot of the money invested in property sold as assets in the United States, does this mean we(U.S) just bought back some of our country with tax payers dollars?

Yes! I know that my mortgage is now in an "ASSET-BACKED" mortgage security which is held by Deutsche Bank! So, I guess we'd be buying back the debt.

I am thinking about a staggering statistic I heard not too long ago about how much of the United States is owned or financed from other nations?

Exactly!

Does anyone see where I am going here? I could be way off.. I just have not heard a peep about foreign owners or investors.

Yes, it could be, actually, good for the country in the long term. But the way that the media is spinning this, is as a Wall Street Bailout. it's not that.

Now Lehman and AIG are more akin to a Wall Street Bailout. I don't call this current incarnation of the public buying debt, a Wall Street Bailout.

It's not directed at any ONE company and this may actually help the Community Banks.

[Mi Bankruptcy]

Thanks "Justbroke'.. I knew someone would fill in a couple of the missing pieces that were alluding me when I was thinking about it. ( Lehman, AIG)

[maddog2112]

Wow, I`m very impressed! Thought I would just post and start some provocative conversation on the bailout. There are some very smart and informed people on this forum. Ok i`ll admit both parties are to blame and they are all bought and payed for by unlimited corporations and lobbyists,but going back to the Ronald Reagan era the repubs bible has been deregulation. Everything these investment banks have done is legal, and thats what happens when you let the fox guard the hen house! It seems to me that we`ve all been sold down the road to these corporations and as usual the taxpayer is left holding the bag. I don`t think this was any accident. These people knew what they were doing with these mortgages that were handed out like candy. What the hell, they made their money buying and selling them. Is it just coincidence that the bankruptcy laws were changed as soon as Dubya got into office, or did they expect this as part of the plan. If the country goes bankrupt it`s alot easier to justify getting rid of social security and medicare to name a few. I think thats what this is really all about. I just find it so sickening that when I go bankrupt I`ve got to payback 80% of my debt, and when these guys bankrupt their companies, I have to bail them out. These aholes are all about accountability until it comes to them! I just think it`s sad to see what this country is coming to. Thanks for letting me vent, and sorry if I offended anyone on this forum.

[justbroke]

If the country goes bankrupt it`s alot easier to justify getting rid of social security and medicare to name a few. I think thats what this is really all about.

I'm not there with you on that. Including other social programs, the U.S. spends over $1.527 TRILLION dollars per YEAR. The Federal budget is $2.902 TRILLION for 2008. The entitlement programs are going to take up more and more of the budget (they are already HALF of the operating budget). While there is some money in the Social Security "Lock Box", that soon will get depleted as they can't fund all the social programs from the operating budget.

2008	Budget	Spending:

608	billion	Social	Security				
386	billion	Medicare					
209	billion	Medicaid					
324	billion	"Unemployment,"	"Welfare," Other

TOTAL 2008 BUDGET 2902 billion

I am of the mind that every administration since Ford has seen the writing that the current system can't be supported because eventually, the promises made (via social programs) will eat up the entire operating budget (money collected from taxes). The only way out is much higher taxes, or reducing the amount spent on social programs. BOTH decisions are just not popular!

So what's a politician to do... make everything seem wonderful. Cut taxes, defer payments (increase the Federal deficit by borrowing money to meet current obligations), and create an environment where money is flowing. There's a plus to that... if money is flowing, then the Federal government collects more in Taxes. This is why you prop up the economy... it does put money into the system and into the hands of ordinary people.

However, when that system collapses... utter turmoil. Hey, the world isn't going to stop and people will still have jobs, but we're talking about 10% unemployment, major Bank collapses (Wachovia, WaMu), some major corporations, small community banks unable to lend to mom-and-pop businesses. This will then continue to erode jobs, erode consumer confidence, and dry up money. Again, the economy won't just stop, but it will surely be crippled.

The overall problem is, you can't have it both ways. This is like the "Dot COM" bubble of 2000, but this one really hurts. This one goes real deep into the fundamentals of how the Federal Government makes it possible for people to pursue their dreams, get good jobs, afford new houses, appliances, cars.

Now, having wrote all that, what do I think of this debt purchase by the Treasury? I lean to allow them to do this (maybe only $150B to start with and review later), but this is fundamentally the issue. The Government has injected itself into the financial markets for years (last 4-5 presidents).

The Federal Reserve specifically propped up the economy for years, under direction of the Administrations in office. Should the Fed had been doing that? My answer is yes.

Then what are you talking about justbroke? I'm talking about there should have been a point where the Fed said that we need to stop tinkering or it's going to blow up in our face.

Guess what... it just blew up in their face!


Of course this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Mi Bankruptcy]

Sorry-- I had to share

I've heard some pretty ridiculous ideas put forth on the email circuit
but this one is less stupid than some and errs in my favor. What a
concept, something for the common man.





The Birk Economic Recovery Plan



I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in
a We Deserve It Dividend.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000
bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman
and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals
$425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a
We Deserve It Dividend.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free.
So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.
That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.
A husband and wife has $595,000.00.


What would you do with $297,5 00.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
Put away money for college - it'll be there
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car - create jobs
Invest in the market - capital drives growth
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks
who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company
that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed
Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of
trickling out
a puny $1000.00 ( "vote buy" ) economic incentive that is being proposed
by one of our candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult
U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG - liquidate it.
Sell off its parts.
Let American General go back to being American General.
Sell off the real estate. < BR>Let the private sector bargain hunters
cut it
up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.


Sure it's a crazy idea that can "never work.D


But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion
We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in
Washington
DC.

And remember, The Birk plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because
$25.5
Billion is returned
instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.

Ahhh...I feel so much better getting that off my chest.

Kindest personal regards,

Birk

T. J. Birkenmeier, A Creative Guy & Citizen of the Republic

PS: Feel free to pass this along to your pals as it's either good for a
laugh
or a tear or a very sobering thought on how to best use $85 Billion!!

[justbroke]

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

Cute, only the math is entirely wrong and is off by 3 decimal places.

If the $700B debt purchase yields only $2,400 for every man woman and child, there's no way that $85B would give every man and woman (2/3rds of the population) some $425,000.00.

Nice try. (For the math impaired, the total would be $425.00 per person. This is no different than the "stimulus" checks. Were you stimulated by those checks?)

To give $425K to every man and woman in the U.S. you'd have to have a pool of $85,000,000,000,000.00 which isn't a real number. (That's $85 quadrillion dollars folks... not $85 billion dollars. Quadrillion is more than Trillions, if it matters.)

I like a good joke, but this one is just disingenuous. The last stimulus package was $150 to $200 billion dollars and only provided $300, $600 or $1000 to taxpayers, and not all of them. So... YOU do the math. (For full disclosure, I wasn't stimulated by the Stimulus Checks because of income limitations, so that didn't go to everyone, yet it still costs twice as much as the AIG bailout.)

[Mi Bankruptcy]

DOH.. LOL.. I didn't even catch the math.. I just thought.. Wow.. someone has more time than me..

I actually did get stimulated.. Of course. It was in the form of keeping me warm as I paid of my propane bill. LOL

[fltoo]

There are blogs on the net advocating giving every person in the USA two million dollars instead of the bail out. LOL

There are 304,000,000 in the USA and the bail out is $700 billion.

And, THESE people vote!

We need more money for education, especially math.