Charitable Contributions Question For All

[epiphany]

Okay, I must admit that I am puzzled every time I see a charitable contribution or tithing (I think I spelled that right) question on this forum. Usually the author is asking if it is an allowable expense.

What I don't understand, don't get at all, is how anyone who cannot pay the bills and is having a hard time with daily living expenses justifies (to one's own self--not talking about justifying the expense for BK) making any charitable contributions to anyone at all.

In my town, I am asked for money from the homeless (and sometimes those only pretending to be) almost every day. I don't and can't give. That is not to say I have NEVER (I occasionally have given them food/water but never money) but for the most part NO. I need to come up with my own basics and rent and it's tough.

For those of you who give on a regular basis but still can't pay your bills....why do you do it? Is it a duty? Is it ingrained? Please, I am not trying to insult anyone, I am just trying to understand.

Call me ignorant or selfish, but I just don't get it.

ep

[AngelinaCat]

Hi ep:

I have a very similar opinion to yours. I'll be interested in seeing what others have to say. Almost every Saturday when I go to the store, I have to run a gauntlet that is begging for every cause ranging from school activity fundraisers, to disabled citizens, retired guide dogs, and the like.

Some causes I might like to help, and did in the past, but not right now, when if the dollar I give to some charity might mean that I can't buy to food to feed us tonight because I am a dollar short.

[joab]

Many people feel it's important to donate money as a matter of religious principle. The BK code allows for this by letting people donate up to 15% of their income, no questions asked.

The reality is most people in straitened circumstances don't donate enough money to charity/religious organizations to make any real difference to their creditors.

[justbroke]

I give to a charitable organization which is part of my brother's church. In my BK, I've actually reduced the amount given to the organization by about $1,200 a year. However, I feel it an obligation, just like any other.

Most religious organizations have a 10% tithing (donation) minimum. I'm giving less than 4% (before and during my BK).

[epiphany]

Many people feel it's important to donate money as a matter of religious principle. The BK code allows for this by letting people donate up to 15% of their income, no questions asked.

The reality is most people in straitened circumstances don't donate enough money to charity/religious organizations to make any real difference to their creditors.

Thanks, I guess my question is: why it that important?

Put the creditors aside, this is not about them or what the BK code allows. It's about feeding yourself/family and keeping a roof over your head.

Is the money donated by people in dires straights (ie, forced to consider bankruptcy) not enough to make a difference to their own well being were they to keep it in their pockets?

ep

[FLBK7]

In my family we have always strongly supported a local charitable organization (non-religious) that does wonders for the community. In my pre-BK days I usually contributed $25/week. When things got rough I stopped giving, of course. But as I have gotten my finances in shape again I have resumed my weekly contributions, although it's only $10/week now. I also volunteer my time a few times a year.

I get a lot of personal satisfaction doing this. I never stopped to wonder "why" I do it until ep raised the question. I guess we were just brought up that way and old habits die hard.

[justbroke]

Is the money donated by people in dires straights (ie, forced to consider bankruptcy) not enough to make a difference to their own well being were they to keep it in their pockets?

Pardon me for jumping in. The $400 a month I give to a charitable organization that does wonders Worldwide... is nothing compared to the $6k/month I was paying to stay in just ONE of my homes.

I guess you have to measure it out for yourself. You have to say... "if I was not able to afford things, no job, and needed help... who would help me?"

If you're answer is the Government. Bzzzzzt! Next contestant please.

I'm one of those people that believe in the "reap what you sow". I perform random acts of kindness... like putting a quarter into meters that just ran out. I couldn't believe it when I saw one of the lawyers at the Bankruptcy court doing this. I just had to talk to him after that.

You know why, because everyone thinks lawyers are scum and pigs and greedy. To see him do something so humble. he told me that he does it for all the cars parked in front of the courthouse. Many of the lawyers do it. It's a friend helping a friend. He then pointed to a meter maid across the street ticketing cars, and made some snide remark about "it must be that time of the month". Priceless.

[epiphany]

In my family we have always strongly supported a local charitable organization (non-religious) that does wonders for the community. In my pre-BK days I usually contributed $25/week. When things got rough I stopped giving, of course. But as I have gotten my finances in shape again I have resumed my weekly contributions, although it's only $10/week now. I also volunteer my time a few times a year.

I get a lot of personal satisfaction doing this. I never stopped to wonder "why" I do it until ep raised the question. I guess we were just brought up that way and old habits die hard.

Okay, I get that, but again, I think the point was missed. YOU stopped giving when you couldn't. Now that you can, you are doing it again. I get that.

What I don't get is people that are doing it when they truly can't.

ep

[justbroke]

What I don't get is people that are doing it when they truly can't.

Actually, they can. Since the law and the DMI calculation allows the deduction, they continue to do it. It's not as if the money comes out from what you are allowed monthly. If you ended up in a Chapter 13 but below the medium income, I could see where paying it would hurt.

In a Chapter 13, above the medium income, and having DMI, what does it hurt to continue giving to the charitable organization? The code provides for it, and it does good. The Government knows that these charitable organizations cover the HUGE gap between social programs and what's actually needed to feed, clothe and shelter people.

I would love it if the Code would take your average monthly charitable contribution and make that same monthly payment while you're in a Chapter 13. It would work for me!

The only other choice for Congress is to allow the continuation of these contribution... or beef up social programs (especially as Bankruptcies soar). We all know that they are trying to do the opposite in Congress (reduce spending). Almost $1.5trillion dollars of the Federal Budget goes to Social Programs. It wouldn't bother me to spend $500billion more. (But I guess that's a different discussion.)

[epiphany]

Pardon me for jumping in. The $400 a month I give to a charitable organization that does wonders Worldwide... is nothing compared to the $6k/month I was paying to stay in just ONE of my homes.

I guess you have to measure it out for yourself. You have to say... "if I was not able to afford things, no job, and needed help... who would help me?"

If you're answer is the Government. Bzzzzzt! Next contestant please.

I'm one of those people that believe in the "reap what you sow". I perform random acts of kindness... like putting a quarter into meters that just ran out. I couldn't believe it when I saw one of the lawyers at the Bankruptcy court doing this. I just had to talk to him after that.

You know why, because everyone thinks lawyers are scum and pigs and greedy. To see him do something so humble. he told me that he does it for all the cars parked in front of the courthouse. Many of the lawyers do it. It's a friend helping a friend. He then pointed to a meter maid across the street ticketing cars, and made some snide remark about "it must be that time of the month". Priceless.

I believe that you reap what you sow but you can't sow what isn't there. The lawyer analogy doesn't quite cut it in far as the question because I am sure that wasn't close to his last dime. This isn't about random acts of kindness...though I do believe in and appreciate those.

So question for you, JB, you are broke but still giving 400 a month to charity? Is that correct? My question would be why?

If the answer is for the karma, I will accept that. I will accept any answers, I just don't believe I have gotten one yet that answers the question I originally asked.

ep

[justbroke]

I believe that you reap what you sow but you can't sow what isn't there. The lawyer analogy doesn't quite cut it in far as the question because I am sure that wasn't close to his last dime. This isn't about random acts of kindness...though I do believe in and appreciate those.

My point with the lawyer was... he didn't have to do it (period). Yet he did. Something in him tells him that it's better to be kind, because he hopes that someday, someone, in kind, returns the favor... without asking.

So question for you, JB, you are broke but still giving 400 a month to charity? Is that correct? My question would be why?

No, I'm not broke... hence that's why I'm in a Chapter 13. I make above the medium income for my state... and actually more than 3 times the medium.

So... here's my answer...

• I'm not technically broke.
• I'm logically broke.
• My income is enough to pay my creditors > 80% back
• If I didn't have to pay the TEE 10% a month, I'd pay back my creditors 90% or more!!!
• If I had paid my unsecureds normally (no Chapter 13)... I'd have LOWER payments and would be paying most of them over 20+ years (I know... a bad thing overall, but could have paid the minimum payment)
• Had I chosen Debt Management, I would be paying back on 60-70%, not 80%... and at a lower payment
• The contributions I give are 2.65% of my 2005 income, and just 3.25% of my current annual income
• So, I contend that the money is there.

The math is easy for me. I could stop all charitable payments and just hand the money over to the TEE. The TEE would take 10% ($40) and split $360 pro rata amongst my 40 creditors. That would be about $9 a month each

(Technically, some creditors would get less than $0.50/month and one or two would get more than $80/month because of the pro rata thing.)

OR, I can help people. VERY easy decision for me. (And I thought this through very carefully.)

[soleprop]

the way i've seen it is the $5 or $10 i give to whatever charity maybe 2-3 times a year would not have made a dent or noticeable diff in my financial situation or in my debts with my creditors but it makes a big difference to the charity (as it gets added in with the peanuts everyone else is pitching them too).

[justbroke]

the way i've seen it is the $5 or $10 i give to whatever charity maybe 2-3 times a year would not have made a dent or noticeable diff in my financial situation or in my debts with my creditors but it makes a big difference to the charity (as it gets added in with the peanuts everyone else is pitching them too).

I think that's what I was trying to say too, but you are much more eloquent.

While my amount is in hundreds of dollars, monthly, it's all relative. It's only 3% (or 3 cents) out of every dollar I earn.

That 3% would not satisfy even one of my hungry creditors (pun intended), but it certainly satisfies hundreds of indigent people.

I would not equate filing Bankruptcy with being indigent. (Perhaps in Chapter 7, it is more likely, but certainly not as likely in Chapter 13 filings)

[Flamingo]

Having gone through a big income loss and then a Chapter 13, I have some input as to charitable contributions during bankruptcy or the period prior to filing. We stopped church donations and giving of any kind at that time. We just could not continue to contribute to our church or even think of donating money to any organization. Our priority at that time was ourselves and our family and putting food on the table. I actually called our parish pastor and explained our situation. He advised us there was no need to contribiute and when times were better we could start again. You can actually volunteer services instead of donating money and it won't cost you a dime except maybe the transportation to/from the church or other nonprofit organization. Sometimes they need volunteers in person moreso than donations.

I cannot see having a family and other priorities/bills during a Chapter 13 and donating money to any organization. The time will come afterwards when you can make it up if you wish or just start where you left off.

[justbroke]

I cannot see having a family and other priorities/bills during a Chapter 13 and donating money to any organization. The time will come afterwards when you can make it up if you wish or just start where you left off.

But, in a Chapter 13, where you are over the medium income, it doesn't come out of your "allowable" expenses. So, it doesn't take food off the table (so to speak).

I think this is where there is confusion.