Charitable Contributions Question For All

[allavdj]

I dont care if I get it, understand or support it either. That isn't the point.

you still did not answer my questions about your religion. all I keep seeing is dogma and that is fine but why cant you answer the questions?

Just so you know, I dont care if you give 100% to your church or if you go BK on your church payment. I am not questioning your moral obligation to your god. I am questioning why you rip people off in order to keep up your moral obligation?

According the the bible (yeah I know) debt is also a sin. I have come to terms with that and I am more than willing to admit that I really screwed up. We continue to give because we will eventually be forgiven of our debt through the process of bankruptcy and have already been forgiven for the sin itself. I hold no moral high ground here.


so what you are saying is, it is ok to make a bunch of debt to people & not pay them back as long as you do the church debt donation thing?
why dont you have the same moral obligation to pay back your debts to people?

As I said above, debt is a sin. So to answer your question directly, no it is not right to make a bunch of debt and not pay them back and the act of giving does not forgive the sin and I do feel a moral obligation to pay back what is owed, but that simply may not be possible.

why do you have a spiritual & moral obliagtion to give to your god debt but not to the people debt you say you will pay back? Is it because your god is more important than the people?

Simply, yes...God is more important that the people. And I do have moral obligations to both. If I had an infinite amount of time I would gladly pay back in full all debts owed.

you took a scripture & tried to turn into a tithing 10% thing that had nothing to do with tithing. THAT IS WHAT I CALLED YOU ON. you also tried to make it sound like people are supposed to give their very last penny just because of that verse.

I said nothing about a 10% tithing thing. What I did say is that god instructs us to give and to give with a willing and humble heart. It is the act of giving that is important, not the amount. The point of the story is: It doesn't matter how much you give, it's how you give it. The widow was humble and willing to give all she had, whereas the others gave large gifts out of the need to "show off".

& whatever happened to the dogma about the more money you give to the church the more money god will give you? you know those preachers who say that? or dont you believe in that?

I dunno you tell me. I don't remember seeing anywhere in the bible where God says he will give us money if we give him money. What he does promise us is that if we follow his commands that we will have a home in heaven.

and for the record, I dont give two cents what you do with your money. Really I don't. It is the inconsistency that is in question.

So....there ya go....hopefully that is more clear....maybe.

[Bandit]

So....there ya go....hopefully that is more clear....maybe.

Thanks allavdj. At the very least you are being honest in your replies and that I have a lot of respect for. Thanks again for clearing up my questions.

[allavdj]

I'm glad I was able to be more clear that time around. Harder than you think trying to explain your belief system on paper

[Bandit]

It surprized me actually. I just thought I would get the same old guilt trip run around I have always heard about it.

I think a lot of people just believe things but do not know for sure why & never question things. Nothing wrong with having something good to believe in & something good to look forward to even when it does not always make sense or you cant prove it

[fltoo]

Putting religion aside, because helping others is not just for the religious. I must add as a disclosure that I don't believe in religious tithing unless the entire amount goes to help the needy. I am not into paying the church heat bill.

If I am down to my last dollar and need food, I would spend .50 on my food and give .50 to someone else who needs food.

I guess my parents ingrained that in me, and I ingrained it in my children. Bad times require less giving, but give what you can nonetheless, even if it is a dollar or unused items to someone in need.

You asked why do we do it? I ask, why do you not do it? Because, everyone can find something of value to give to someone who has less than them.

[Trixie007]

I am not a christian but as a member I am still entitled to give my opinon and ask valid questions. I dont see anything that says only christians can speak. I did not bash anyones beliefs but you could try to answer the questions

I don't mean to say that you aren't entitled to give your opinion. What I said was, the person who started the thread asked what motivates people to give, and it did seem that you actually are attacking the beliefs of others. If your tone were interest, confusion, or curiosity, then that's a different animal altogether. My apologies if I misinterpreted your tone or intent.

I thought I did address your questions that you asked me in your previous post - the widow didn't give her clothing... and it's a message addressing the heart more than the wallet. Jesus used her as a contrast showing that those who gave out of their wealth were not giving as much as this woman who gave in poverty because she wholeheartedly trusted Him to meet her needs. If you don't share this faith, then it is reasonable that this story makes absolutely no sense to you.

why would you create debt & at the same time give to charity when you cant give back what you borrow? what exactly do you gain by doing that? could you please answer the question? you are ripping off one person to give to someone else. please explain.

I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone who is filing or considering filing BK "ripped off one person to give to someone else" - maybe that was spending money frivolously, not stopping using credit immediately when there wasn't enough money to pay bills. Maybe they ate out at restaurants, went on trips, charged luxury items... the list is endless. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that seems to be the rule.

I agree with the previous poster that the mismanagement of money can be (but is not always) a sin issue (if you are a Christian), but that we are forgiven, just as BK is a legal form of forgiveness. In our case, it certainly has in part been a sin issue, but as Maya Angelou wrote: "When I say... 'I am a Christian' I'm not shouting 'I'm clean livin', I'm whispering 'I was lost, Now I'm found and forgiven.' "

Giving charitably is not what caused us to be in this position, and it is not causing us to be unable to pay for the basics. We have a roof over our heads. We have enough to eat. We are decently clothed. We have medical care.

As for what we gain - our goal in giving is not gain, although we have been incredibly blessed. The Bible does say that we will be blessed in giving, but nowhere does it say how we will be blessed, or when! In fact, it tells us more often that we will suffer. Prosperity Preachers are fun to watch occasionally, but I would have to agree with you that their motives are typically not great.

I hope that answers your questions better.

[Bandit]

I don't mean to say that you aren't entitled to give your opinion. What I said was, the person who started the thread asked what motivates people to give, and it did seem that you actually are attacking the beliefs of others. If your tone were interest, confusion, or curiosity, then that's a different animal altogether. My apologies if I misinterpreted your tone or intent.

I thought I did address your questions that you asked me in your previous post - the widow didn't give her clothing... and it's a message addressing the heart more than the wallet. Jesus used her as a contrast showing that those who gave out of their wealth were not giving as much as this woman who gave in poverty because she wholeheartedly trusted Him to meet her needs. If you don't share this faith, then it is reasonable that this story makes absolutely no sense to you.



I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone who is filing or considering filing BK "ripped off one person to give to someone else" - maybe that was spending money frivolously, not stopping using credit immediately when there wasn't enough money to pay bills. Maybe they ate out at restaurants, went on trips, charged luxury items... the list is endless. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that seems to be the rule.

I agree with the previous poster that the mismanagement of money can be (but is not always) a sin issue (if you are a Christian), but that we are forgiven, just as BK is a legal form of forgiveness. In our case, it certainly has in part been a sin issue, but as Maya Angelou wrote: "When I say... 'I am a Christian' I'm not shouting 'I'm clean livin', I'm whispering 'I was lost, Now I'm found and forgiven.' "

Giving charitably is not what caused us to be in this position, and it is not causing us to be unable to pay for the basics. We have a roof over our heads. We have enough to eat. We are decently clothed. We have medical care.

As for what we gain - our goal in giving is not gain, although we have been incredibly blessed. The Bible does say that we will be blessed in giving, but nowhere does it say how we will be blessed, or when! In fact, it tells us more often that we will suffer. Prosperity Preachers are fun to watch occasionally, but I would have to agree with you that their motives are typically not great.

I hope that answers your questions better.

......Prosperity Preachers.... I am talking about people who use the NT to force guilt onto people so the preacher can have more money for his own self serving pocket. If you go back you will see that you are jumping in as a 3rd party conversation (which is fine) but you are not getting all the facts of what, when, where & who said what.

I already know that parable & every possible dogmatic belief on this like the back of my hand & my questions were based on what someone else said, not you. People do not like to be questioned & are often not supposed to question their beliefs.
Well, I question everything.

I know all too well that much of the christian religion forces people to give a 10% of their paycheck or they are thrown out & Looked down upon. this is also done through guilt... & they use the NT to justify it. I dont have to be a christian to understand what the bible says. I don't have to be a christian to see that the bible was also tampered with in some places causing massive disagreements with people even in the same church on this very issue.

I am also not saying that giving to charity is what makes people go to BK. The fact still remains that people find giving to their church/preacher more important than repaying their other debts after the fact that they already know they cant pay.

From where I am standing, that is stealing from one creditor to keep paying to your god... because you know you are creating more debt by doing that especially if you already know that a certain amount of your income is already spent on church things.

why would you take money that you owe others & give it to charity? There is a big difference between giving to charity when you have it & giving it to your god as the other post says GOD DEMANDS IT. so you are not really giving it from what you earn, you are stealing it by running up more debt. That is an angle people dont seem to get.

Knowing there is a vast difference between tithing, offerings & charity...does not mean I have to be christian to understand what all that means.

If your tone were interest, confusion, or curiosity, then that's a different animal altogether.

I could say the same about your tone & what I believe. There is nothing I have not heard so far many times before.

From where I am standing, if you already have a debt that you believe in paying (the god/church debt) then why create more debt to purchase other things that your charity/tithing payment can pay for ? You cant have it both ways.

Oh yah! just put your charity & tithing onto credit cards. Right?
that is basicly what is happening by creating all the other debt.

[Bandit]

Back to the OP.
Very simple Math.

You earn 1000 this week, so you give 100 tithe dollars to the church as an obligation. or whatever charity you give to.

then you go charge 100 dollars on whatever you need or want because you are broke.

that is not paying the god what you earn. that is stealing to pay your god.

[Bandit]

Putting religion aside, because helping others is not just for the religious. I must add as a disclosure that I don't believe in religious tithing unless the entire amount goes to help the needy. I am not into paying the church heat bill.

If I am down to my last dollar and need food, I would spend .50 on my food and give .50 to someone else who needs food.

I guess my parents ingrained that in me, and I ingrained it in my children. Bad times require less giving, but give what you can nonetheless, even if it is a dollar or unused items to someone in need.

You asked why do we do it? I ask, why do you not do it? Because, everyone can find something of value to give to someone who has less than them.

I am the same. Very much so. I would figure out a way to prepare a meal that someone else who also needs it could also share it. Unless it is an oyster on the half shell....dont take or share my oyster cause i might bite the finger reaching over for it

[fltoo]

Back to the OP.
Very simple Math.

You earn 1000 this week, so you give 100 tithe dollars to the church as an obligation. or whatever charity you give to.

then you go charge 100 dollars on whatever you need or want because you are broke.

that is not paying the god what you earn. that is stealing to pay your god.

Or, you earn 1000. a week, you give 100. to charity, not as an obligation, but because you want to help those in need.

Then you don't go out and charge 100. on whatever you THINK you need because you rather be charitable.

[Bandit]

Exactly, fltoo.

It took a few rounds to get it sorted out but we got there finally

[Trixie007]

I give up LOL, have a nice day!

[fltoo]

I am the same. Very much so. I would figure out a way to prepare a meal that someone else who also needs it could also share it. Unless it is an oyster on the half shell....dont take or share my oyster cause i might bite the finger reaching over for it

Oh my, agreed, Bandit, don't touch my oysters! LOL

Will never forget my mother telling me this story. Her father was an ice man during the depression and would pick up day laborers to help him with deliveries. He had 8 kids to feed. Every night, he would bring home the homeless day laborers to sit at his dinner table and eat. He would instruct everyone to eat a "little less" pasta and beans to accomodate the "dinner guests".

Off topic, but, my 29 year old son has a very successful company. The first thing you see when you go into the lobby is a picture of his great grandfather standing in front of his horse and ice wagon. Of course people always ask who the old Italian man is. He tells them that it is his great grandfather, the man who he is thankful to, for having the courage to come to America on a cargo ship, dead broke. He always tells the "extra dinner guest" story, also.

I guess I am charitable due to guilt. Italian mother's guilt works every time!!!

[Bandit]

Does anyone here know about firstfruits? way back in old bible days....yadi yadi...


anyway, there really is something neat about it when the first of my vegetable crop arrives, I always give the firstfruits away to people & then maybe only keep a couple things from the first wave of veggies & wait for the next bounty in a week or two. It is not always easy to not take a huge bite out of the first tomatoe or not cook the first squash.

There is like a special thankfulness & a double thankfulness when you give them away. First being thankful for the veggies & fruits, second being thankful that you can give them to people who need it. of course in the bible they did not do it that way but that is how I do it.


I know I am giving up the best fruit to people but that is ok. I dont mind sharing that way & I know the people appreciate it.
I know there will be plenty more coming off the vines as the buds & tiny veggies are popping up everywhere for the second round...

[Bandit]

Oh my, agreed, Bandit, don't touch my oysters! LOL

Will never forget my mother telling me this story. Her father was an ice man during the depression and would pick up day laborers to help him with deliveries. He had 8 kids to feed. Every night, he would bring home the homeless day laborers to sit at his dinner table and eat. He would instruct everyone to eat a "little less" pasta and beans to accomodate the "dinner guests".

Off topic, but, my 29 year old son has a very successful company. The first thing you see when you go into the lobby is a picture of his great grandfather standing in front of his horse and ice wagon. Of course people always ask who the old Italian man is. He tells them that it is his great grandfather, the man who he is thankful to, for having the courage to come to America on a cargo ship, dead broke. He always tells the "extra dinner guest" story, also.

I guess I am charitable due to guilt. Italian mother's guilt works every time!!!

That is so cool!

We have a picture of my Grandpa in the foyer of my house & you see it right when you walk in & he was a baker who would do the same type of thing with his baked goods. He had no problem giving things away to those who had less than him or bringing someone in to do work & feed them real well.

When I was a kid we would bail straw in the summer & go back to the owners house for a real nice dinner that the wife had cooked. Those were awesome days. We did no make much money as kids but we learned a lot and ate a lot.

I kind of wish I could have seen those ice delivery days, they really did deliver ice & there is an old building here where they used to store it & has not been opened to anything since they stopped delivering ice. That old ice builiding has ICE in big blue letters on the side all worn from the weather.

I am going for oysters tomorrow. It is a seafood & prime rib buffet all you can eat at a place in Michigan City right on the the lake. I will be eating at least 25 dollars in oysters and I hear they have oysters rockefellar too. Shrimp, crablegs...I cant wait to see it & will be starving myself all day tomorrow just for those oysters.

I figure fresh oysters sell for about 12 bucks for 12 these days when you eat out so I will be eating at least two dozen. Now to figure out what the chaser will be

I am so happy about going there I could pee my pants.
LOL
*busting a gutt here*