Religion Discussion

[GoingDown]

The so called christians don't get a pass, either. In this day and age, the Catholic church moves pedophile priests from one parish, where they preyed on innocent children, to another parish thinking that that cured them. And all that accomplished was to have more innocent children victimized by the pedophile priests.

I'm sure if you looked hard enough you would find similar atrocities being committed by people in leadership positions in the religion of Islam.

Power corrupts people.

Those evil priests are not raping children in response to some video on YouTube. They are very sick and twisted individuals, and should be punished.

It's not just the leaders of Islam that are rioting in the streets. Ordinary followers of the religion are rioting in the streets.

The point I was making is that you will not find Christians rioting in the streets just because someone put their founder-- Jesus-- in a jar of urine and then put it on display as art, and even got government funding for it.

Can you imagine if someone put the founder of Islam (you notice I am actually afraid to say his name here because of what Muslims might think if they read this) in a jar of urine, put it on display in an art museum, and got money from the government to fund it? Can you imagine what would happen to that museum?

But no, Christians didn't riot in the streets, kill people over it, etc.

I am saying there is a difference in the way people in these different religions act.

Let's take Buddhism for an example. What do you think the Buddhists would do if we made a silly YouTube video saying horrible things about the Dalai Lama? My guess is they would not riot in the streets about it. They are truly a religion of peace. If I was going to follow any religion, I would pick that one. But a funny thing happens with belief. Once you stop believing in something, it's nearly impossible to get it back. I'm skeptical of all religions and the afterlife. And I can't get back to where I once was as a child. It's kind of like Santa Clause. At one time I believed in him and then I saw my parents wrapping the Christmas gifts late at night, and I never could believe in Santa after that.

[jacko]

Ah, you'r being a simpleton. When you live in a country with out hope, have a first grade education and military/neptoism dominated economy, ones ignorance of the world takes hold. They don't how others live in the rest of the world. The riots are pressure valve for those who are angry with no opportunity similar what happened in LA. All you need is a spark to ignite everyday anger. The United States foreign policy has been to prop up these authoritarian regimes at the expense of the people. You have to see it on their end how US policy has harmed their lives.

Last I heard, Indonesia with the largest Islamic population which recognizes over a dozen religions along with Malaysia have been peaceful. Even our Muslim citizens have gone about their lives. The only noise I hear everyday is when the Christian fundamentals are attempting to impose their god into every day life.

You're comparing apples and oranges here.

A video of some weirdo's opinions about a religion vs. police officers brutally beating an African American.

Freedom of speech, freedom of religion vs. brutal beating.



I think there is a difference there.

A person could simply ignore the video. Or you could condemn the video with words. You could even post your own video on YouTube where you said what you thought and felt about the video, and you could even go point by point and say exactly why you think the video is wrong, and even present evidence to prove your point. Wouldn't that be better than killing people over a silly video made by a weirdo?


The Islamic world hates the very idea of the freedom of speech, and the freedom of religion.

I personally want to have the freedom to believe in no religion-- that when we die, that's the end of us.


I say mind your own business, but that's not how they feel about it:


Hezbollah leader calls for international law against insulting Islam and says people who support offensive Mohammed film 'should be punished'

In a move that could escalate tensions around the Arab world, the leader of the Hezbollah militant group called for protests against the movie and said the U.S. must be held accountable for the film.

In a televised speech, Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah pushed for the creation of an international law that would ban insults of Islam and other religions, citing similar laws that exist to prevent anti-Semitism.

His outrage stems from the anti-Islam film produced by a mysterious convict based in California, that has since sparked protests outside American embassies in the Middle East and across the globe.

'We should not only express our anger at an American embassy here or there. We should tell our rulers in the Arab and Muslim world that it is "your responsibility in the first place" and since you officially represent the governments and states of the Muslim world you should impose on the United States, Europe and the whole world that our prophet, our Quran and our holy places and honor of our Prophet be respected,' he said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz26jlrSDt0

[GoingDown]

Ah, you'r being a simpleton. When you live in a country with out hope, have a first grade education and military/neptoism dominated economy, ones ignorance of the world takes hold. They don't how others live in the rest of the world. The riots are pressure valve for those who are angry with no opportunity similar what happened in LA. All you need is a spark to ignite everyday anger. The United States foreign policy has been to prop up these authoritarian regimes at the expense of the people. You have to see it on their end how US policy has harmed their lives.

Last I heard, Indonesia with the largest Islamic population which recognizes over a dozen religions along with Malaysia have been peaceful. Even our Muslim citizens have gone about their lives. The only noise I hear everyday is when the Christian fundamentals are attempting to impose their god into every day life.

Now, let's not let this devolve into personal attacks against me. Thank you.

The Muslims are also rioting in London, England, and Sydney, Australia. Are those countries without hope, as you describe them?

They're rioting in Indonesia as well. So much for their tolerance.

The rise of Islam in western countries such as England and Australia is the most troubling to me. If they want to impose their will upon the masses in their own countries, fine, but when they come to our countries and start throwing a violent temper tantrum because they don't get their way, that's quite a different story.

Which system would you rather live under? The western system which pretty much lets people do whatever they want to do and believe whatever they want to believe (or not believe in the case of skeptics like me), within the bounds of reason, or one that imposes its will upon the masses under penalty of death?

What surprises me the most is that women's groups such as N.O.W., in this country are pretty much silent about Islam. They're treated like second-class citizens (and in some cases like a man's personal property) in Saudi Arabia (where Islam was founded, remember?), and most of the middle eastern countries, and yet, not a peep out of N.O.W. Why is that?

"All women, regardless of age, are required to have a male guardian. Women cannot vote or be elected to high political positions. Saudi Arabia prohibits women from driving. All females must have a male guardian, typically a father or husband. The guardian has duties to, and rights over, the woman in many aspects of civic life. Depending on the guardian, women may need their guardian's permission for: marriage and divorce; travel, if under 45; education; employment; opening a bank account; elective surgery, particularly when sexual in nature."

[GoingDown]

Lots of tolerance on display here:


Indonesian protesters, police clash near US Embassy

By Presi Mandari (AFP) – 1 day ago

JAKARTA — Protesters hurled petrol bombs and clashed with Indonesian police outside the US Embassy in Jakarta on Monday, as demonstrations in the world's most populous Muslim nation turned violent.

Hundreds of people in Indonesia protested on Friday and Saturday against a low-budget film insulting to Muslims, but they had been largely peaceful.

That changed as demonstrators lobbed petrol bombs and shouted anti-American slogans. Riot police responded with bursts of water cannon and fired warning shots into the air to disperse about 700 protesters.

Police were also seen kicking or dragging away some protesters, as thick black smoke from petrol bombs wafted into the air. One policeman, bleeding in the face, was taken away in an ambulance.

"America, America go to hell!" demonstrators yelled, some carrying placards reading "death to America" or "behead those who insult Islam".

Many of them were supporters of hardline groups the Islamic Defenders Front, known for its unprovoked armed assaults on liberals, transsexuals and nightclubs, and the Jemaah Anshorut Tauhid, which was branded a terrorist organisation by the United States earlier this year.

The demonstrators were all dressed in identical white Muslim garb and some were armed with slingshots.

Several hundred police in riot gear and at least two armoured vehicles guarded the embassy, together with a pair of water cannon and a fire engine.

Central Jakarta police chief Angesta Romano Yoyol estimated the number of protesters at 700. He said seven policemen had been injured in the clashes and taken to hospital.

Jakarta police spokesman Rikwanto, who goes by one name, confirmed that some of the protesters were arrested, but said he did not immediately know how many.

"We used tear gas, water cannon and warning shots, which are in accordance with standard procedures for violent protests of this kind," he said.

He did not say if police were firing live ammunition or blanks.

Earlier Monday, about 50 students trampled on the American flag and threw eggs at a US diplomatic mission in the city of Medan, capital of North Sumatra province, an AFP reporter at the scene said.

The "Innocence of Muslims" film, thought to have been produced by a small group of Christian extremists in the United States, has sparked violent anti-American protests across the Islamic world.

The movie mocks the Prophet Mohammed and portrays Muslims as immoral and gratuitously violent. [I wonder why? ]

Indonesia's Communications and Information Ministry spokesman Gatot Dewa Broto told AFP on Sunday that YouTube's parent company Google had begun restricting access to videos of the film.

But the videos could still be viewed on Monday.

"We understand that it takes time for Google to block everything as people continue to upload those sensitive videos. We appreciate Google's cooperation," Broto said

[IBroke]

The solution is simply:

Ban religion in public. Every religion. Problem solved. Period.

[jacko]

It wasn't a personal attack. Are the Muslims rioting or demonstrating in the Western countries? Key difference. Have yet to see rioting in this country. I wonder why. Oh, the Christians in this country have been imposing their values on the rest of us, such as Vagina laws in VA, coercing schools to display the 10 Commandments along with imposing the bible, Voter repression laws etc..Its kind of funny when you mention Muslim suppression of women which happens. Saudi Arabia is the worst of all, but a beacon of hope is happening with women asserting their right. Will happen one day. Pakistan, overall is a secular country, but the minority extremists are the loudest. Iraq under Saddam was liberal towards women issues. Women in Iraq until the invasion could do what they please. Now they are being persecuted to cover up and stay home.

Its ironic, we have subtle coercing on the sex roles in this country. Paul Ryan's spouse had a promising legal career which she ended when they had a family. What a waste of talent.

Now, let's not let this devolve into personal attacks against me. Thank you.

The Muslims are also rioting in London, England, and Sydney, Australia. Are those countries without hope, as you describe them?

They're rioting in Indonesia as well. So much for their tolerance.

The rise of Islam in western countries such as England and Australia is the most troubling to me. If they want to impose their will upon the masses in their own countries, fine, but when they come to our countries and start throwing a violent temper tantrum because they don't get their way, that's quite a different story.

Which system would you rather live under? The western system which pretty much lets people do whatever they want to do and believe whatever they want to believe (or not believe in the case of skeptics like me), within the bounds of reason, or one that imposes its will upon the masses under penalty of death?

What surprises me the most is that women's groups such as N.O.W., in this country are pretty much silent about Islam. They're treated like second-class citizens (and in some cases like a man's personal property) in Saudi Arabia (where Islam was founded, remember?), and most of the middle eastern countries, and yet, not a peep out of N.O.W. Why is that?

"All women, regardless of age, are required to have a male guardian. Women cannot vote or be elected to high political positions. Saudi Arabia prohibits women from driving. All females must have a male guardian, typically a father or husband. The guardian has duties to, and rights over, the woman in many aspects of civic life. Depending on the guardian, women may need their guardian's permission for: marriage and divorce; travel, if under 45; education; employment; opening a bank account; elective surgery, particularly when sexual in nature."

[GoingDown]

Yes, it is happening in Western countries as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOsEScxzqck

If you look closely, you will see them holding signs which talk about beheading people who insult Islam.

Not good, in my opinion.

I wouldn't want to live near these kinds of people. They're scary.

[GoingDown]

The solution is simply:

Ban religion in public. Every religion. Problem solved. Period.

I just want what the U.S. Constitution gives us-- the freedom of speech, and the freedom of religion. We should be able to say what we feel like saying, believe what we want to believe, or not believe in the case of skeptics like me.

Why don't these people make their own YouTube video and tell us what they believe and why the other video was so wrong, in their opinion? Nothing wrong with expressing their own opinions about what was so wrong with the video.

That would make a lot more sense to me than rioting, threatening, intimidating, and killing people.

[TheBajan]

I just read this entire thread. Very interesting but nothing really new. Years ago I was a part of a Christian debate forum and I left because I realized that no one really was interested in learning anything. Everyone there (myself included) was set in our beliefs and all the debating in the world wasn't going to change anyone's opinions so it all seemed pretty pointless to me. BTW, when I say it was a Christian debate group, it's a bit misleading. It was more properly described as a group of individuals debating religious issues (mostly of the Christian faith). There's always going to be an opposing argument to any belief system, quote, or interpretation thereof.

Faith and religion are not one and the same. All of us have faith. Whether it be in a higher power or not, it can be argued that we all have faith (a belief system) in something or someone, even if it's just in our selves. We all hold on to our beliefs tightly. Not everyone is religious. Even MANY of those who proclaim a faith in God are not a part of any religious institution.

There are hypocrites everywhere.... among all religions and also among agnostics, atheists, etc. Every one of us who has ever lied, betrayed a friend, or betrayed our own moral values has been a hypocrite at some point. It's fun to point fingers because it validates our own selves but it's shallow and non-productive.

Over and over I hear people of faith (not necessarily just Christian) are intolerant, weak-minded, robots unable to think for themselves and simply fall into blindly following a belief system because they have been told to. They are accused of "pushing" their beliefs on others and told they have no place in the public arena. The irony of this is ALMOST laughable. I have been fortunate to know many highly intelligent, independent thinkers of many faiths. Many people of faith are content to simply live their beliefs without intruding on the lives of others. Of course there are those exceptions. However, the same can be said about people who proclaim no faith also. The truth is that intolerance, weak-mindedness, and the inability to think for oneself runs rampant among all groups of people including those who proclaim themselves too enlightened to believe in a higher power. There will always be good and bad in every one of us.

A very interesting thread but not at all productive. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

The Bajan

[GoingDown]

What would make it more productive, in your opinion?

[TheBajan]

GoingDown,

In my opinion, this sort of discussion can only be productive if there is a defined goal at the end of it between the people having the discussion. If the point is only to put your own opinion out there and attempt to refute or discredit the beliefs of others because they don't line up with your own... it's non-productive and quite frankly, arrogant. On the other hand, if individuals have a defined goal they are trying to achieve through such discussions, and they are able to respect each others views in the effort to achieve that goal, there is some basis for polite debate. I have not seen this as a part of this particular thread. That's okay though. This thread wasn't created to reach a goal but merely to discuss religion. As long as everyone participating is okay with that then it serves the purpose intended (albeit a non-productive purpose).

Cheers,
The Bajan

[jacko]

Do we have freedom of religion? There are certain Christians who want to impose their god in the a public school classroom which is suppose to be neutral ground. Religion being used to impose vagina laws in some states. While deadly riots is not the norm in this country, but violence is everywhere and daily in the tune of tens of thousands of murders, rapes, and property crime perpetuated by Christians.

I just want what the U.S. Constitution gives us-- the freedom of speech, and the freedom of religion. We should be able to say what we feel like saying, believe what we want to believe, or not believe in the case of skeptics like me.

Why don't these people make their own YouTube video and tell us what they believe and why the other video was so wrong, in their opinion? Nothing wrong with expressing their own opinions about what was so wrong with the video.

That would make a lot more sense to me than rioting, threatening, intimidating, and killing people.

[AngelinaCatHub]

I have to agree that this particular discussion is without merit. The only true Religion is between the individual's heart and his Maker. The Bible can be translated in many ways due to many languages. I do agree that Islam is a bloody Religion but by the Christian the Muslims took a beating during the crusades.

In the KJV

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. ...

I do request that all make some effort at respect for all religion whether you believe in any or not. God is spell G o d, and not god. The Bible not bible. Qur'an or Koran is also respectfully capitalized. It is only respectful to do so with any religion.

Here is how mistranslations could be caused: There was no punctuation in many translations. Here is the same verse with comma added or moved. "I say to you, this day you will be with me in Paradise" This implies that the thief would be with the Lord in Paradise then.

"I say to you this day, you will be with me in Paradise" This implies that ["I'M TELLING YOU TODAY "] [You will {eventually} be in Paradise]. For the sake of a comma, two different meanings.

Here is a classic instructors model of how punctuation can make a big difference:

First statement is: that that is is that that is not is not is not that it

Second statement with punctuation make these words mean something: That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is not that it?

'Hub

[GoingDown]

All I am saying is that there does seem to be some difference in the way the various religions react to our freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

While one seems to violently riot and kill people over cartoons and videos, the others use their words to condemn what they don't like. Is there a difference there? I think so.

This "Piss Christ" is back. I wonder if the Christians will riot and kill people over it?

.................................................. ....................................

“Piss Christ,” once branded as a “deplorable, despicable display of vulgarity,” will be displayed at the Edward Tyler Nahem Gallery in Manhattan on Thursday. The artwork features a “photograph of the crucifix submerged in the artist’s urine.”

The artwork debuted in 1989 and was funded through prize money provided by the National Endowment for the Arts. The art gallery hosting the retrospective salute to Andres Serrano is privately owned."

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/wh-silent-over-demands-to-denounce-piss-christ-artwork.html

[jacko]

You may want to think that over. A link for worldwide crime stats don't paint a rosy picture for peace loving Christians.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

[QUOTE=AngelinaCatHub;583649]I have to agree that this particular discussion is without merit. The only true Religion is between the individual's heart and his Maker. The Bible can be translated in many ways due to many languages. I do agree that Islam is a bloody Religion but by the Christian the Muslims took a beating during the crusades.