Religion Discussion

[newbeginning]

Just as the Republican party was in the past, is at present and will forever be in the future the party of the rich and powerful, religion has more to do with power and money than it does with a Deity. - jb

A friend once said to me that the problem with the religious is not in what they believe, rather, that, in all careful observation, it's what they don't believe.

The religious RIGHT and LEFT and CENTER are all political designations, imho. Speaking via my own Christian belief system and experience, once you designate your belief with one of those "worldly" designations, you have already compromised your spiritual and scriptural obligations.

It is far too often about power, fear of losing status/position, the unknown, the unfamiliar, personal discomfort, etc.

For decades, the religious center and left have allowed the right to hijack Christ's teachings and distort it to their own social and political agenda. One can easily see the godlessness of the right by following their politics over the years... the seedy alignment of the religious right with the GOP and its politics is just another clear indication of just how far off the religious right's true designs were/are.

1. Champions of CAPITALISM/FREE MARKET/Unbridled Nationalism- has nothing to do with Jesus. Long ignored and ignore the burden/exploitation that capitalism and our policies places on the poor, other nations...BTW, I believe that the capitalist system and the USA the best that this world can offer, but improvement needed.

2. Pro-Life: More accurately, pro-unborn. The right are far less concerned about the plight of millions of children (especially inner-city and 3rd world) who are living; promote capital punishment (New Testament: though it can be argued that Jesus would not favor the death penalty)

3. Anti-gay: not a proponent of gay marriage rights myself, but i have long come to terms with the necessity to protect the civil-rights of all human beings. So, discrimination of gays would clearly go against the very ideas of our constitution and frankly, and arguably against moral expectations.

4. "CHRISTIAN" fore-fathers??? More like christian-like. Many of them were deists with deist ideas. And as importantly, the founding fathers clearly observed and correctly designed the Constitution so that no religion becomes a standard bearer to the rule of law. Not because religion is not important, rather, the people/politicians that use it are corruptible.

The liberal left, well, that's a whole other issue in itself.

[Bandit]

Wrong forum for this. Actually I don't think there is any correct forum for that completely wrong comment. It is not a fact.

Jesus is considered a profit by the Jewish religion and always was. We just don't believe him to be "divine." He is honored and celebrated by the Jewish religion - just not worshipped. Only God is worshipped.

Get your "facts" straight.

My comments are not wrong.

So you are claiming to be jewish then?

I know more jews than not that have NOTHING to do with jesus in any way shape or form. According to your claims, which days do jews honor and celebrate Jesus as a valid prophet???

The last time I checked he is a FALSE prophet and did not fulfill the requirements for being either a prophet or a messiah according to all of the many jews that I know.
Where exactly does this prophet fit into the Jewish religion? What prophecy did this jesus fulfill to the jews and their beliefs?
So, according to your claim that jews see jesus as a prophet kind of like moses was a prophet, which days do jews celebrate Jesus in the jewish religion as such? would that be the day that the jews & romans wanted him dead?

Maybe you should get your facts straight.

[momisery]

Wow a thread to express you faith? ha ha.. Okay, I am a big nothing and follow my own guidelines. Pretty typical I guess since most seem to translate into making faith all about them.. ha ha. My faith is a bit different, we do not have a Satan per se... we do believe the trickster fools people into be bad though. We do not believe it is all up to God to save mankind. If God created mankind in his image he did it for a purpose. That purpose could be that we could take care of each other and of our planet? But my faith has more than one God I have to admit. And I do try to live by understanding others and living my life the way I believe is right. If I can help someone I will, but I can not convert them or make them think like me. All I can do is share me with them, and they have to follow their own path. Sorry the other thread got hijacked .. I was on that one and I was not sure what happened.

[blankslate]

First, I apologize for use of the word "profit" instead of "prophet." I was reading a forum about financial problems called the Bankruptcy forum and wasn't expecting to see an incorrect "fact" about the Jewish religion.

Bandit, you're not worth my time. You obviously have no concept of the Jewish religion. I wish you peace because you certainly seem full of misery and angst.

[Bandit]

First, I apologize for use of the word "profit" instead of "prophet." I was reading a forum about financial problems called the Bankruptcy forum and wasn't expecting to see an incorrect "fact" about the Jewish religion.

Bandit, you're not worth my time. You obviously have no concept of the Jewish religion. I wish you peace because you certainly seem full of misery and angst.

You still have not explained your claim/FACT as to what Jesus has to do with the Jewish religion & exactly what prophesy did he make in the jewish religion, as you claimed. ?????????????? oh that is right, he has nothing to do with it which explains why you are deflecting and instead of approaching your claim that jesus is a prophet for jews, you try to make me look bad instead.

Now you are on the religion thread, so why bring up a different thread? Surely you know so much about this you can answer such a simple question? If I am not worth your time and you are so much above me, then why reply at all? That is funny because that is what so many religous people say when questioned. You are entiled to your opinion of me. I could say the same exact thing about you as I would never expect compassion or charity from the know it all religious people of whom, I am not worth their time.

Now, you might get by with rabbi or teacher, but jesus a prophet to/for the jews? That is pretty funny.

[blankslate]

Bandit I don't know why you are trying to start a fight with me. I've never had anything to do with you before.

I didn't bring it to this thread, as far as I can see you did unless your reply was moved here by a mod.

Jesus was considered a prophet until his apostles betrayed him and claimed he was divine. Don't take my word for it please, ask a rabbi. I wasn't there when it happened so I asked myself and have had discussions on the matter with more than one Rabbi.

I'm not trying to make you look bad, you're doing a good enough job of that yourself. I countered your "fact" as not being "fact." Here's another fact, in religion there are very few. Yes, I am of Hebrew blood and it has been practiced from the beginning of my blood roots. It may be the Christian belief that Jews saw Jesus as a heathen but it is not in the Jewish belief or current teachings.

This is the problem with ALL religions. This "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality. No one is right or wrong. Faith is blind and it is just faith. People take the word of man that has been translated too many times to be an order from an Almighty being. They use it for war, greed and corruption.

While I come from Hebrew blood, I do not take every word of the Torah to be absolute. After all, it was written by man which is a flawed being. I do take one thing very seriously from my background and that is to live every day in a Godly way. I do my best every day to make a difference no matter how small in the world.

Again, I encourage you to meet with a Rabbi and ask your own questions. I've asked clergy of many religions to explain their teachings to me.

[Bandit]

Bandit I don't know why you are trying to start a fight with me. I've never had anything to do with you before.

I didn't bring it to this thread, as far as I can see you did unless your reply was moved here by a mod.

Jesus was considered a prophet until his apostles betrayed him and claimed he was divine. Don't take my word for it please, ask a rabbi. I wasn't there when it happened so I asked myself and have had discussions on the matter with more than one Rabbi.

I'm not trying to make you look bad, you're doing a good enough job of that yourself. I countered your "fact" as not being "fact." Here's another fact, in religion there are very few. Yes, I am of Hebrew blood and it has been practiced from the beginning of my blood roots. It may be the Christian belief that Jews saw Jesus as a heathen but it is not in the Jewish belief or current teachings.

While I come from Hebrew blood, I do not take every word of the Torah to be absolute. After all, it was written by man which is a flawed being. I do take one thing very seriously from my background and that is to live every day in a Godly way. I do my best every day to make a difference no matter how small in the world.

Again, I encourage you to meet with a Rabbi and ask your own questions. I've asked clergy of many religions to explain their teachings to me.

Now all of the sudden I am worth your precious time? I know far more than you give me credit for.

I have already talked to rabbis and tons of jews and none of them would even think of declaring jesus as a prophet for jews in judaism. They despise that whole idea. You should know that all prophecy left israel when malachi died thus it is impossible for jesus to be a prophet for jews 350 years after the fact and that is the belief that all jews I have met, take. To be quite frank,plenty of jews I have known have a complete and utter hate and disgust for anything to do with the jesus story. You are the first jew I know who declares jesus is a prophet for the jews and yet you still have not listed a single prophecy that he was supposed to have made or done. Next, I suppose you will tell me that Jesus was crucified for jews sins and rose from the dead for jews too. Or what? Jesus failed at being the prophet for judaism? You know...it is religion after all, you can make it up as you go along.

Some jews will go as far to say jesus was a good man and a good teacher, but nothing farther than that and all jews I have met all believed the same way that Jesus has NOTHING to do with judaism. Furthermore, there is no scripture where any of the apostles declared jesus as a god & jesus never said that about himself either. you would think it would say that though, especially with all the tampering christians did with the bible. None of that diety crap even came into play until hundreds of years later and was not fully established until 325 A.D. Jews or apostles had nothing to do with it, in fact it is still debated and I really don't give 2 cents about that nonsense, bickering and fussing that people do. You are the one who brings the pagan godman junk up, not me.

You have muslim and christian beliefs about jesus being a prophet to jews, it is not in judaism. But what you are really saying/declaring is (?) Jesus used to be a prophet until yadi yadi yadi yada yada & whatever other excuses you can come up with. That way you can give jesus the prophet card but then also take it away when it is convenient...that is exactly how religion justifies just about everything they come up with.

and, why would I go ask any more rabbis the same thing? That is like asking the pope a question & I don't believe a single word that comes out of the popes mouth.

This is the problem with ALL religions. This "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality. No one is right or wrong. Faith is blind and it is just faith. People take the word of man that has been translated too many times to be an order from an Almighty being. They use it for war, greed and corruption.

We agree on that much. What someone calls blind faith I call it imaginations. However, unless you make the story of jesus into another goose with golden eggs fairy tale, someone is clearly wrong and someone is telling a lie. OR! each religion is talking about a completely different jesus.

[blankslate]

Seriously, why the insulting attitude? I'm telling you what I have known growing up Jewish and asking these questions myself to Rabbis. Your interpretation is different than mine. Why did I ask? Because of being called anti-semitic names as a child by children who heard it from their parents when they discovered my last name was Jewish. I did not grow up in a Jewish community. In fact, we kept it to ourselves. My grandfather barely made it out of Europe when his family realized that the Nazi party were not so friendly to Jews.

Yes, I got riled up when I read your statement that in my opinion, breeds more hatred for myself and my family. Why do Jews not want to discuss the story of Jesus? Because the atrocities that we have suffered for that very story are painful. Deeply painful.

I want to believe that you're not just spewing hatred and trying to start fights but your words no matter how I read them just don't indicate that.

I'm tired. I don't come to this site to read about religion, politics or any sort of debate. I read that thread because it was about California and I live in California. That is all. I saw that it was taken here and against my better judgment took the bait and replied to you. Argue all you want. Clearly that's what you're here to do. I come here to get information and help with information and experience I have not to endlessly debate on the Jewish interpretation of the story of Jesus. Again, I know what I have been taught and what I have discussed with clergy in my religion. There are different sects of Judaism as there are Christianity. I tend to go with the more modern Temples so we may be talking about different people. Your blanket statement simply did not cover the community that I have been in.

[Bandit]

I'm tired. I don't come to this site to read about religion, politics or any sort of debate. I read that thread because it was about California and I live in California. That is all. I saw that it was taken here and against my better judgment took the bait and replied to you. Argue all you want. Clearly that's what you're here to do. I come here to get information and help with information and experience I have not to endlessly debate on the Jewish interpretation of the story of Jesus. Again, I know what I have been taught and what I have discussed with clergy in my religion. There are different sects of Judaism as there are Christianity. I tend to go with the more modern Temples so we may be talking about different people. Your blanket statement simply did not cover the community that I have been in.

no one is forcing you to type words here. you can stop reading & writing at any time you choose. did that occur to you yet?

you still have not given me the prophecy that you declared makes jesus a prophet for judaism. you told me that jews celebrate & honor jesus as a prophet. well, I have never seen that from any jews. dont make your own blanket statements that does not cover another community that you clearly know nothing about and then tell me that I know nothing. you have been a very rude and mean spirited person toward me and have made more than one direct personal insult.

I want to believe that you're not just spewing hatred and trying to start fights but your words no matter how I read them just don't indicate that.

That makes two of us.

[blankslate]

Let me reiterate where I got the idea that Jesus was considered a prophet. Again, I'm tired and I was not expecting to get into a religious debate with anyone today.

Jesus is not anywhere mentioned in Jewish teachings. He is simply not a part of this religion. If you ask a Rabbi as I did then they will tell you the historical aspect rather than a religious one. The historical aspect is that Jesus was considered a prophet until he declared himself to be divine, the Messiah that the Jewish religion was waiting on. That is when he was persecuted.

Your statement that Jews believe Jesus to be a heathen is incorrect because that is not a part of the religion at all. It simply is not addressed unless asked about in a historical point. Yes, the story is painful and there will be people who will answer differently. Again, when you've been told your whole life that your people killed the Savior, it tends to be a sensitive thing.

[blankslate]

And to add, I was incorrect to say that he is honored and celebrated. I should have said he was accepted as a prophet and some Jews still believe that he was but betrayed by his apostles. He is not celebrated and I was wrong to say that. It's what I get for firing off when I read something early in the morning. The correct term should have been 'respected" as we do respect the Christian religion and respect that there is an historical aspect. Again, maybe not all Jews but certainly the ones I have been around do respect the story and invite Christians to attend our services.

I can admit I was incorrect, can you?

[Bandit]

Your statement that Jews believe Jesus to be a heathen is incorrect because that is not a part of the religion at all. It simply is not addressed unless asked about in a historical point.

No! my statement is not incorrect. jesus is a heathen, an apostate and a heretic -and that wise all knowing one you are, came from the lips of jews. that is not my own personal statement. Bottom line is jesus is NOTHING in judaism. One does not have to travel very far to find it from the lips of jews.

[Bandit]

And to add, I was incorrect to say that he is honored and celebrated. I should have said he was accepted as a prophet and some Jews still believe that he was but betrayed by his apostles. He is not celebrated and I was wrong to say that. It's what I get for firing off when I read something early in the morning. The correct term should have been 'respected" as we do respect the Christian religion and respect that there is an historical aspect. Again, maybe not all Jews but certainly the ones I have been around do respect the story and invite Christians to attend our services.

I can admit I was incorrect, can you?

I already know jews do not honor or celebrate jesus as a prophet because there is nothing in judaism that has that in it. that is like saying goldfish have elephant trunks and 4 legs. I can gladly admit when I am wrong but I have studied this far closer than you give me credit for. You might respect other religions. Ok fine.

[Bandit]

No! my statement is not incorrect. jesus is a heathen, an apostate and a heretic -and that wise all knowing one you are, came from the lips of jews. that is not my own personal statement. Bottom line is jesus is NOTHING in judaism. One does not have to travel very far to find it from the lips of jews.

Though that last jew I talked to who declared jesus was an apostate and was led astray teaching false things & whatnot, and whatever else floated his boat at the time, did tell me that he could not declare jesus as a heretic because there is nothing in judaism that fully defines what that really entails. I just said, "whatever" and lost interest real quick in what he had to say about it & in fact did not want to hear another word he had to say about it, ever.

[lumbalumba]

What about religion? I'm a Roman Catholic. But I don't have anything against those with a different belief than I do. At the same time, I don't want other people to push their own belief on me. I don't want to debate about religion. As long as I'm faithful to mine and not stepping on others and respecting them that's fine.