We help Iraq get their health system in place but forget ours

[WhatMoney]

Wow! MomIcantFindmy (toothbrush, socks, shoes, homework?), it's good to hear some real life examples, instead of the right wing talk radio propaganda that passes for the truth in some of these threads.

You are so right about the ER crisis. My Dad suffered an Lewy body type stroke on a Sunday, and he had to wait for EIGHT hours in the local ER at the best private hospital in the county, because of all the uninsured poor were queud ahead of him on their only day off. Since he wasn't bleeding to death, they made him wait like the typical undocumented man who had a nose sniffle and couldn't afford a regular Dr. Oh yeah, my dad was admitted when they finally got around to him and died 4 months laters from complications. This is the reality of the US medical care system without a national health system for all. And my father did have insurance, both Medicare and Supplemental, btw.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...roundtheworld/
.

[JRScott]

WhatMoney and others its not basic care that is harder to get in Socialized Countries. Asthma, the common cold etc are all easily obtained. However the problem comes with more serious illness/injury where an MRI, CATSCAN and in some cases even X-Rays are needed. There are reports out of Canada and other areas of folks waiting as long as a year to get these critical services. In the United States you don't wait that long. These services are critical in the care of several illnesses/injuries. Delaying getting them can lead to serious complications.

The VA system is not the best system and you can get lost in the system as I've seen some do. It is by no means a model to build a National Health Care system. Not to mention many of the VA hospitals could not pass inspections to become private hospitals due to aging buildings that don't meet existing building codes.

Jolly was pointing out he felt medicare and medicaid were the problem in future spending. They are, we can't afford them either. The problem is the government in how it has been a steward of our money, both Republicans and Democrats. The sad truth is we can't make up for the money that's spent, its gone. They spent it on various pork belly projects and feel good programs to gain a short term benefit of reelection rather than looking at long term problems. By 2020 Social Security will be paying out more money than it takes in if nothing changes. The following decade medicare and medicaid will also start doing so. Now in a National Health Care system you could roll medicare and medicaid into it, but the projections for spending on them only relate to primarily the extremely poor and those of advanced years. When adding in all other age groups and economic groups then the cost would balloon to levels not easily predicted but probably easily 5 or 6 times the projected budgets of Medicare and Medicaid.

High Health Costs are more than anything else affected by high malpractice insurance payments that doctors have to make. Doctors are human just like the rest of us. However every single person seems to demand perfection from them when they themselves are not perfect in their jobs. Thus we have folks suing doctors for ridiculous amounts that even if the person had lived they would never have earned in their lifetimes. Thus if we really want to control health care costs we have to control the awards for mistakes made. We also need to ensure doctors and nurses are not overworked. Current schedules were they pull 24 hour days or multiple 12 hour shifts in a row contribute to errors. Probably a good cap on lawsuits seeking restitution for disability/death from a doctor's accident need to be limited to no more than 30xAnnual Income of the victim. Then you need to mandate some working regulations in the health industry to ensure fresh minds are working on patients as they come into emergency rooms and surgical rooms. A National Health Care system that also does not address these two issues will be economically ruinous for the country as you will see doctors and nurses retire from the industry rather than face the possibility of government enforced low pay and high liability on the the medical profession workers.

It's not a matter that it isn't a worthwhile goal. It is a matter that we simply can't afford it at this time. Not without major cutbacks. In order to have balanced the 2008 budget including spending for the war you would have had to do a 30% across the board cut in spending. That would have generated about 50 billion positive on the budget, which could have be used to pay down the national debt. That's how out of control current spending is. If you eliminate the money spent on iraq you'd still have to do 20% across the board to balance the budget with only around 70 billion surplus.

To afford such a program we'd have to cut massively into all other programs and most likely also increase taxes. Taxes are already to high in the United States for the services we get. What we need to do first is reign in Government spending. Stop emergency funding that is off the budget. Require the government to evaluate all programs. Those that are found to be to wasteful or costly should be privatized. (Dept. of Education and NASA are two I can think of off the top of my head). Elimination of income taxes I think is also critical, replacing it with a consumption (or sales tax). Currently there are to many people who escape paying income taxes. Thus the government loses revenue in a system that cannot be fixed in its current system. With the elimination of the income tax you could also eliminate the IRS bureaucracy. You would have to repeal the 16th Amendment though because if you just let congress replace it with a consumption tax but leave the 16th amendment we'd have a new income tax within 20 years.

It is the financial difficulty I've had these last few years and my bk that really opened my mind to how bad things really are. If we continue to allow the federal government to spend as it has, the USD will be worth less than the peso or the ruble within 20 years. You see they financed the government debt similar to how ARMs are done. They got a low introductory rate which would increase in future years, that's why the payment on just the interest alone begins to balloon starting in the late 2010s and early 2020s. They've always figured they could refinance the debt before then leaving us in perpetual debt. However as many of us have found out that doesn't always work, with a falling dollar and the inability as a nation to pay our debt it becomes less likely other nations will allow us to refinance. Thus we are in for some very rough years, or should I say our children and grand children are in for some rough times. Given average life expectancy of men in my family I probably won't live past around the mid 2030s anyway so its not me that will see the worst of it. I'm thinking of the future, and unless we start planning for it today and demanding our government pay off the national debt, work within the budget without deficit spending, the nation we leave our children will be far weaker than the nation we have today. I have become exceedingly very conservative on economic issues because without a sound economy, everything else fails.

The last thing I see us needing right now is more government spending. It is foolish for the government to continue spending money it does not have. If we could afford a National Health Care system I'd be all for it, but I simply at this time do not see a way to afford it. Well actually I did propose above what I felt we could do to afford it in a previous post but our politicians and most Americans are not willing to take the necessary steps to do so. Keep in mind I'm uninsured, my company is so small they don't offer any insurance benefit, and I make to little to afford insurance on my own as I've looked around for it. I accept that if something major comes along most likely I'll die but if I die that the future might be brighter for the next generation, let it be so. I don't see the need to take money from others forcibly through the government to just pay for my care as being just. If people wish to donate to charities that provide such care that is their right, but they should also have the freedom not to do so if they desire.

[MomIcantFindmy]

WhatMoney and others its not basic care that is harder to get in Socialized Countries. Asthma, the common cold etc are all easily obtained. However the problem comes with more serious illness/injury where an MRI, CATSCAN and in some cases even X-Rays are needed. There are reports out of Canada and other areas of folks waiting as long as a year to get these critical services.

Waiting? Grab a phone book and call your local medical imaging office to see if you can get an appointment without medical insurance and no upfront payment. Good Luck. I believe never is an awful long time to wait for a MRI, Cat Scan or x-ray.

In the United States you don't wait that long.

You do if you do not have insurance.

These services are critical in the care of several illnesses/injuries. Delaying getting them can lead to serious complications.

Exactly why we need health care for all Americans.

The VA system is not the best system and you can get lost in the system as I've seen some do.

One can get lost in ANY system.

It is by no means a model to build a National Health Care system.

It is the largest health care system in the world. Our leaders would do well to look at the VA as well as other countries who have socialized medicine. Italy, Switzerland, Norway just to name a few countries that spend less per citizen on health care yet have higher ranked life expectancy than the USA. Currently we are ranked 42nd in life expectancy behind Malta, Jordan, Bosnia and other countries you would not think of.

Not to mention many of the VA hospitals could not pass inspections to become private hospitals due to aging buildings that don't meet existing building codes.

Has nothing to do with health insurance.

Jolly was pointing out he felt medicare and medicaid were the problem in future spending.

I actually agree. If other countries can provide health care for all of their citizens at a cost per person that is cheaper than what we spend currently then we should be able to also.

They are, we can't afford them either. The problem is the government in how it has been a steward of our money, both Republicans and Democrats. The sad truth is we can't make up for the money that's spent, its gone. They spent it on various pork belly projects and feel good programs to gain a short term benefit of reelection rather than looking at long term problems. By 2020 Social Security will be paying out more money than it takes in if nothing changes.

Do you have the facts for that as that is not what I have heard or read. There is a book by Mark Weisbrot and Dean Baker, coauthors of "Social Security: The Phony Crisis." Great read. I don't agree with them entirely either none the less it is a great read. Information out of the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) directly disputes the 2020 date you gave.

The following decade medicare and medicaid will also start doing so. Now in a National Health Care system you could roll medicare and medicaid into it, but the projections for spending on them only relate to primarily the extremely poor and those of advanced years. When adding in all other age groups and economic groups then the cost would balloon to levels not easily predicted but probably easily 5 or 6 times the projected budgets of Medicare and Medicaid.

Need notations of fact here. If we are to assume cost will be increased if modeled on Medicare/Medicade then we need to model our national health care after a socialized nation that spends less per individual than we do yet achieves higher standard of care and longer life expectancy.

High Health Costs are more than anything else affected by high malpractice insurance payments that doctors have to make. Doctors are human just like the rest of us. However every single person seems to demand perfection from them when they themselves are not perfect in their jobs. Thus we have folks suing doctors for ridiculous amounts that even if the person had lived they would never have earned in their lifetimes. Thus if we really want to control health care costs we have to control the awards for mistakes made.

I, personally, could not put a price tag on one persons pain, injury or death. We have a legal system set up in this country that allows a patient or patients family to have their situation heard by their peers and/or a judge. Our legal system does not need to be micro managed by the insurance companies who lobby for caps on suits. One might wonder why insurance companies continue to make billions of dollars and doctors struggle to make malpractice payments. (Yes, we do agree on that point)

We also need to ensure doctors and nurses are not overworked.

I agree!!! How do you propose to do that with the nursing shortage occurring now?

Current schedules were they pull 24 hour days

I pulled 26 hour days on a ambulance (one hour over lap on each end) and the days could get longer than that if I got a call 30 min prior to shift change.

or multiple 12 hour shifts in a row contribute to errors.

Also mandatory overtime due to staffing shortages

Probably a good cap on lawsuits seeking restitution for disability/death from a doctor's accident need to be limited to no more than 30xAnnual Income of the victim.

That makes me so mad I can hardly see straight. How come a child is less valuable than an adult making 100K a year or a homeless person or a college student? That is flat out wrong. I am going to assume you did not mean that.

Then you need to mandate some working regulations in the health industry to ensure fresh minds are working on patients as they come into emergency rooms and surgical rooms.

Plan for that?

A National Health Care system that also does not address these two issues will be economically ruinous for the country as you will see doctors and nurses retire from the industry rather than face the possibility of government enforced low pay and high liability on the the medical profession workers.

I would cherish government pay. When I worked in Florida last year I was paid $8.14 per hour to save lives on ambulances and in the ER. Yet my counterparts at the VA were making double and sometimes triple depending on longevity. Lets study the way some other countries proceed with health care.

It's not a matter that it isn't a worthwhile goal. It is a matter that we simply can't afford it at this time.

As noted above it would be cheaper at this time than what we are currently doing. Thus saving money.

Not without major cutbacks. In order to have balanced the 2008 budget including spending for the war

Yes, this war has been way too costly and the money would have been better spent on our country.

you would have had to do a 30% across the board cut in spending. That would have generated about 50 billion positive on the budget, which could have be used to pay down the national debt. That's how out of control current spending is. If you eliminate the money spent on iraq you'd still have to do 20% across the board to balance the budget with only around 70 billion surplus.

Not if we model after a county with a lower cost per citizen than we currently have. We would actually save money.

To afford such a program we'd have to cut massively into all other programs and most likely also increase taxes. Taxes are already to high in the United States for the services we get. What we need to do first is reign in Government spending. Stop emergency funding that is off the budget. Require the government to evaluate all programs. Those that are found to be to wasteful or costly should be privatized.

We lose government oversight when we privatize. Corporation's have no interest in saving us money. Their main interest is their bottom line. Seems to conflict with the basic interests of the American people.

(Dept. of Education and NASA are two I can think of off the top of my head). Elimination of income taxes I think is also critical, replacing it with a consumption (or sales tax). Currently there are to many people who escape paying income taxes. Thus the government loses revenue in a system that cannot be fixed in its current system. With the elimination of the income tax you could also eliminate the IRS bureaucracy. You would have to repeal the 16th Amendment though because if you just let congress replace it with a consumption tax but leave the 16th amendment we'd have a new income tax within 20 years.

I disagree, however the argument is null because repeal of income tax is not plauseable.

It is the financial difficulty I've had these last few years and my bk that really opened my mind to how bad things really are. If we continue to allow the federal government to spend as it has, the USD will be worth less than the peso or the ruble within 20 years. You see they financed the government debt similar to how ARMs are done. They got a low introductory rate which would increase in future years, that's why the payment on just the interest alone begins to balloon starting in the late 2010s and early 2020s.

The debt has a direct relation to GDP as well as international commerce.

They've always figured they could refinance the debt before then leaving us in perpetual debt. However as many of us have found out that doesn't always work, with a falling dollar and the inability as a nation to pay our debt it becomes less likely other nations will allow us to refinance. Thus we are in for some very rough years, or should I say our children and grand children are in for some rough times. Given average life expectancy of men in my family I probably won't live past around the mid 2030s anyway so its not me that will see the worst of it. I'm thinking of the future, and unless we start planning for it today and demanding our government pay off the national debt, work within the budget without deficit spending, the nation we leave our children will be far weaker than the nation we have today. I have become exceedingly very conservative on economic issues because without a sound economy, everything else fails.

The last thing I see us needing right now is more government spending.

I agree!! We have spent more money and created a larger government under this administration than any administration in history.

It is foolish for the government to continue spending money it does not have. If we could afford a National Health Care system I'd be all for it, but I simply at this time do not see a way to afford it. Well actually I did propose above what I felt we could do to afford it in a previous post but our politicians and most Americans are not willing to take the necessary steps to do so. Keep in mind I'm uninsured, my company is so small they don't offer any insurance benefit, and I make to little to afford insurance on my own as I've looked around for it. I accept that if something major comes along most likely I'll die but if I die that the future might be brighter for the next generation, let it be so. I don't see the need to take money from others forcibly through the government to just pay for my care as being just. If people wish to donate to charities that provide such care that is their right, but they should also have the freedom not to do so if they desire.

I can understand your belief here, we just disagree. I believe health care should be a basic right provided by our government.
In the end, we have two opposing views. It is wonderful in our country that dialogs can be shared. When many views are presented and ideas shared our country produces the best in the world. I think even when I overwhelmingly disagree with someone I learn. Trying to understand how someone came to their set of beliefs or ideas is fascinating to me. Plus, it is one of the things I have participated in and researched greatly.

[JRScott]

Where is your evidence that the government run program will be cheaper than what it is today?

As far as I can tell everything the government has touched especially with regulations etc has increased in cost, not decreased. This goes for housing, food, gas, oil, etc. Every industry they seek to regulate for the sake of the people ends up costing us more. How will the health industry be any different?

Government regulation is what drives prices up. Also government run monopolies are notorious for high costs. Look at NASA, then look at Scaled Composites for example. Look at the public education system (then look at private education system which does cost more I'll admit, but has a higher rate of college graduates than public system ). What having a government run monopoly does is drive out competition, less competition means higher prices. Farming, we literally pay people to grow nothing. How does that make sense when food prices are rising? The governments refusal to allow any new oil refineries, nuclear power plants, or oil wells has made us increasingly dependent on foreign oil since the 1970s. They've created such a legion of paperwork and fees that it takes people something like 20 years just to get through the process. Then we look at the pumps today and its no wonder. It will be a miracle if they go down at any point in the near future without us removing some of the draconian measures.

Another massive problem is NAFTA, CAFTA and similar trade agreements in which our government gave far more favorable rights to other nations than we received. We should pull out of them all. (I also wouldn't be opposed to pulling out of the UN which is a practically worthless institute that eats up our money since we fund something like 90% of it, its even more corrupt than our government and that's pretty bad.)

The size of government is directly related to what you pay for everything. The larger a government, the more funds it needs to run. The more funds it needs, the higher taxes you have to pay.

Yes the 16th Amendment would be hard to repeal, but the people could force the issue if they wanted to. The income tax is something of a bygone era, when 70% of the GDP is generated by consumer spending and not wage earning there is a big gap. A consumption tax would also ensure that illegal immigrants are still paying their fair share of taxes. It would keep the tax dodgers from avoiding it (well I suppose unless they steal the goods). It would also be instantly noticeable by everyone. Most Americans have no idea how much they pay in taxes. It comes out of their check before they ever got it. I think the outcry would be far greater if Americans knew how high our taxes were, if for instance we got a bill every year from Uncle Sam and had to physically write a check.

I'd also like to see the 17th Amendment repealed. I know many don't share my view on that. But I believe it more than anything is responsible for the strong central government we have today. Under current election laws Senators are more beholden to special interests than the states that they represent. Under the original Constitution before the 17th Amendment they were elected by the legislatures of the state they represent, making them answerable to that state and its people more readily than the current system. The amendment was passed because during the civil war many state legislatures from the south refused to send Senators in order to paralyze the federal government. Instead of how they changed it, just allow the Governor's if the legislatures fail to appoint someone within 90 days of a vacancy to finish out the current term. Thus you could still ensure a full congress.

The Constitution does not guarantee you the right to health care. It is not a power enumerated to the Federal government and thus should be a State right. Thus far two states have tried State Run Health Care, California and Massachusetts. From what I understand California's system collapsed due to the cost, sadly Massachusetts is headed the same way. One impediment to such a system is the Federal Drug Administration, also not an enumerated right of the Federal government and should be state rights. The FDA increases the cost of any medicine you buy by its regulation system which is inefficient, often lets things through the cracks and like most of the federal government corrupt.

If allowed to exercise their rights under the US Constitution and eliminating federal health care and the FDA we could see the states develops programs that would take care of their citizens. The problem is that people are paying such high federal taxes, that the state's can't hardly increase their taxes to support needed programs without massive outcrys. (Yes this also means that if CA wanted to legalize pot they could without federal interference).

Edit: I did actually mean we need a cap on doctor malpractice suit payouts, without it health care will never become affordable, look at the socialized medicine countries they don't allow the payouts we do. In the case of a child you could set the payout to 30x the median income of the state the child resided in. (If you wanted to be fair to all people you could set it to 30x the median income of the state they reside in for all people.). Say someone made 20000 a year. 30x that is 600000 dollars. Placed in a series of mutual funds and assuming the horrendous return of 5% a hear (most average around 15% over the last 30 years) that would yield you 30000 a year paid every year so long as the fund lasted. We need folks to learn how to invest the money too.

[BigJohn]

"The Constitution does not guarantee you the right to health care."

But when you consider what we pay in taxes, we should get something for it. If we can provide Iraqis with healthcare, don't you think we can do something for our own people?

When a country provides for the needs of other countries before it provides for its own people, I would say something is wrong.

Some claim the Iraq war and Afghastan war has cost us 3 trillion dollars. If that money was spent on USA citizens, how much money would that be per citizen?

[WhatMoney]

Some claim the Iraq war and Afghastan war has cost us 3 trillion dollars. If that money was spent on USA citizens, how much money would that be per citizen?

Cost of Iraq war for US citizens (3 Trillion $ spent):

For every man, woman and child:
$9,870/person
For everyone between 15-64 yrs old:
$29,760/person
For the est. 50 Million uninsured:
$60,000/person
For all men 65 and older:
$178,000/person

data courtesy of the CIA:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../print/us.html

[BigJohn]

Great statisitcs! Eye opener.

But it is als depressing that we spend so much on others and ignore ourselves!

If I became an Iraqi citizen, would the USA government pay for my medical?

[MomIcantFindmy]

You could get free medical care without becoming a citizen in Iraq. All you have to do is be there. Toothbrush and soap for free too. We give Iraq so much when our country is struggling.

http://www.defendamerica.gov/articles/feb2007/a021307ms1.html

[JRScott]

You could get free medical care without becoming a citizen in Iraq. All you have to do is be there. Toothbrush and soap for free too. We give Iraq so much when our country is struggling.
http://www.defendamerica.gov/article...021307ms1.html

Many charities and also some states have free clinics or low cost clinics in the United States that people can seek treatment at.

[JRScott]

"The Constitution does not guarantee you the right to health care."

But when you consider what we pay in taxes, we should get something for it. If we can provide Iraqis with healthcare, don't you think we can do something for our own people?

When a country provides for the needs of other countries before it provides for its own people, I would say something is wrong.

Some claim the Iraq war and Afghastan war has cost us 3 trillion dollars. If that money was spent on USA citizens, how much money would that be per citizen?

My point above is that its not a Federal responsibility. I've said time and again we shouldn't be paying for the Iraq Health Care system either. Write your congressman and demand they stop funding it.

Our federal government is overbloated and wasteful. We should seek to combine similar agencies to streamline the process. For example what purpose does the ATF serve? Doesn't it just overlap with FBI and CIA jurisdictions? Time to fold it into one of those and save administration cost.

Not a single federal program to date has ever came in at or below the GAO estimates prior to it becoming law. Not a single tax has ever generated as much tax as the GAO estimates prior to becoming law either. They always overestimate tax revenue and underestimate cost.

I don't know the full cost of the Iraq war, I was against the Iraq war. When asked at Church about it a few years ago I said that I did not think the common soldier would be held responsible, but that the leaders who sent them there might have to make an accounting. For 50 years we have continued to meddle in the Middle East. At first we did so because we feared Soviet domination of the Middle East and its oil, so we propped up the Shah of Iran. This was despite his own brutality to his people and his tyrannical rule. He was overthrown by the Ayatollah. The Iranian regime that arose from that has been ever since hostile to the United States. When they rebelled against us we propped up Saddam Hussein of Iraq. He to was a brutal dictator. In the end he invaded peaceful neighbors and once again we had to intervene. Fearing a power vacuum though, we left him in power in after the first gulf war. Finally at a time after our nation had been attacked, and people needed a face for that evil, it was painted to be Iraq because they had been our enemy the decade before. It was a convenient face to put on it that many accepted readily in the first days even though no 9/11 hi jacker was trained in Iraq nor a citizen of Iraq. All of this has been done to preserve the oil supply we get from the region. It is because our government has refused to allow our own industry to develop and make us energy independent that we keep getting drawn into the fray.

It is because of political shortsightedness that our nation is at this crossroads. If we plan to remain a free people, we must seek to become self sufficient as a nation. If we cannot do that then we will lose our freedom within the coming generations.