The issue of illegal immigrants

[epiphany]

Epiphany, I agree with you basically and it is because of that, that I feel I can say this:

Watch the "Wetback" documentary. It will at least give you a bit of "the other side of the coin" perspective to help balance out your dislike of this whole situation.

I see it from both sides now. I still think we should guard the border, but I no longer blame the people who come here, and I do have a lot of compassion for their situations.

Ultimately it is SUCH a complex problem.

On the simple side of it, yeah, we could just put a wall up and shoot or punish people severely for attempting to cross illegally. That would solve the illegal immigration problem from our end.

But how will it affect our economy? As someone else pointed out, if it wasn't for illegal Latinos, he would have trouble finding people to work in his restaurant... And I'm sure there are tons of businesses like that, now, here in the U.S.. If the wages have to be raised for Americans to do these jobs once the illegals are not here, how much will that contribute to inflation in our economy: fruit and vege prices, etc..?

And further, how will it affect all those people in Latin countries to the south of us who cannot live, who cannot buy food for their kids? "Not my problem"... Yeah, in a way that's true... But the way I see it we do need to help solve the problem, one way or another. Because we are all humans, and we all want to help fellow humans.

For one thing, we should decide how many foreign low-wage laborers we need, and set up a system where we can keep track of them once they are here, and allow them to come seasonally or whatever, but NOT have babies here that become citizens automatically, NOT use too much of our health care dollars, and most importantly NOT stay here indefinitely once they are here.

Then, maybe we can do something to help these other countries fix their economies, provide work for their people in their own countries...

Maybe I'm just dreaming...

But I do believe that "where there's a will there's a way", and certainly if we were not spending billions on Iraq, we could afford to help quite a few people - not by giving them food but by helping them grow their own, etc. etc...

Thanks Pa. I already know the other side of the coin but will watch that documentary when I get a chance.

Please take note of the fact that I have already said that I do not blame the illegal immigrants. I believe I said it was the government's fault for not enforcing our laws.

I have never blamed the illegals for doing what they have to do, but can only have realistic compassion. Charity does indeed begin at home.

And I never suggested shooting anyone for scaling a wall, did I? Though I do think the fence is a good idea if they ever get around to building what we already voted into law..but they won't. It might help you to know too, that we have two border patrol agents who are currently in jail for shooting an illegal drug runner in the butt and he is free as a lark. He is suing them too. One of the agents has already been beaten to a pulp in jail.

Please go back and read my words carefully. This is why I don't like to talk about the subject although sometimes I feel I must. People automatically assume things instead of actually reading what is written. And some just automatically write off what is written without reading as being racist.

As far as the low wage, immigrant workers that are needed to keep inflation down...how do you think we survived so many years without them? Businesses had to pay a decent wage and high schoolers took many of those jobs. When was the last time you saw a kid mowing a lawn? Gotta be tough for a kid to get a summer job anymore.

I don't believe the price of produce would go up significantly, or at all, would the illegals not be here picking it. And even if it did, it would be offset by so many other things. And you know what, even if it wasn't.. I'd be willing to pay more for the dang compost or live without it.

This is a good article, of course opinionated, but good...discusses the differences of immigation "then" and now.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_immigrants_economy.html

ep

[CindyLou]

I live in socal also, and a funny thing happened to me one night. I went to McDonald and tried to order my burger with no bun. (I was on atkins).....the clerk promtly replied (in English), "I no understand, can you say in Spanish?"

My husband and I got the giggles over that one.....

And needless to say, I got a regular quarter pounder with cheese with the bun....lol.

[PaKettle]

Thanks Pa. I already know the other side of the coin but will watch that documentary when I get a chance.

Please take note of the fact that I have already said that I do not blame the illegal immigrants. I believe I said it was the government's fault for not enforcing our laws.

I have never blamed the illegals for doing what they have to do, but can only have realistic compassion. Charity does indeed begin at home.

And I never suggested shooting anyone for scaling a wall, did I? Though I do think the fence is a good idea if they ever get around to building what we already voted into law..but they won't. It might help you to know too, that we have two border patrol agents who are currently in jail for shooting an illegal drug runner in the butt and he is free as a lark. He is suing them too. One of the agents has already been beaten to a pulp in jail.

Please go back and read my words carefully. This is why I don't like to talk about the subject although sometimes I feel I must. People automatically assume things instead of actually reading what is written. And some just automatically write off what is written without reading as being racist.

As far as the low wage, immigrant workers that are needed to keep inflation down...how do you think we survived so many years without them? Businesses had to pay a decent wage and high schoolers took many of those jobs. When was the last time you saw a kid mowing a lawn? Gotta be tough for a kid to get a summer job anymore.

I don't believe the price of produce would go up significantly, or at all, would the illegals not be here picking it. And even if it did, it would be offset by so many other things. And you know what, even if it wasn't.. I'd be willing to pay more for the dang compost or live without it.

This is a good article, of course opinionated, but good...discusses the differences of immigation "then" and now.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_immigrants_economy.html

ep

Epiphany, I did not mean to imply that you were blaming the immigrants, or were racist or anything like that. In fact I think I have the same views as you do, except that maybe I'm a little more ambivalent about it than you. I can truly see both sides of the issue and sometimes I feel one way and other times I feel the other way. I was just saying that BECAUSE of your open mindedness you should see the documentary I mentioned because it will reinforce that "other side" of the coin and I do think it's good to be open minded and see both sides of this issue. Or any issue.

But the bottom line is I think we should either enforce the laws or change them.

I am for tight security at the border because I think we are opening ourselves up to terrorism, with the inability we have now to protect the border.

AND THE VERY FIRST THING I would do is to change the law that makes babies born to illegal immigrants here, American Citizens. That is just effing STUPID! All that does is ENCOURAGE them to come here to have their babies that we have to pay for!

At least right now, today, at this moment, I pretty much agree with what you said in your last post.

We have to protect our own border, our own people, our own economy and in order to do that we need to stop the tide of illegal immigration. EVERY OTHER nation does so, including Mexico! And honestly I think the Latinos that come here laugh at us about how ridiculous it is that we make it so easy for them to come here and live here illegally.

I, too, would be willing to pay more for fruits and veges and fast food etc. to keep the illegals out.

As people I have nothing against them, most of them are good people and my wife and I are friends with a few of them. However, the fact is they DO put a strain on our system, they do take jobs, and they do send a lot of money out of here back to their home countries.

Oh, and I will read the link you posted and comment on it when I get a chance...

[epiphany]

No offense was taken Pa, we are definitely all entitled to our opinions, and to change them when we feel appropriate. I am just passionate about this subject, can you tell?

And you are absolutely correct that I am not ambivilent at all about the subject. I am definitely less compassionate than some out of necessity. I just don't believe we can help everyone, no matter how much we would like to. And I really would like to.

It was great to have this conversation by the way, many steer clear of it, and it really does need to be addressed...it grows more devasting for everyone by the day.

And I won't hold you to reading that link...it is an extrememly long article. I will however, get around to renting that flick you talk of. I just closed my very short lived Netflix account because I got the movies and discovered that they would not play on my computer and I don't have a DVD player. I was bummed too, because I had rented MAXED OUT and really wanted to watch it.


ep

[wayne-o]

Wow....what a hot bed subject. One reason I love this forum everyone is able to express their opinion without name calling etc etc.

I too, see both sides of the coin and have my own opinions on the subject and the arguments I hear.

1) They dont pay taxes. Some do, some don't. If an American does a construction job and gets paid in cash, they don't pay taxes. When I was 16-18, I mowed grass, never paid taxes. As one poster stated many work with social security #'s and have taxes withheld, and never file. I live in Tennessee, our tax base is a sales tax, never been behind the line at the grocery when a cashier told a mexican "no tax for you". I know Tennessee is one of the few, if not only, sales tax only states, but for this reason they might not be as big of a burden for us.

I find it interesting that our government will not give them a social security # so they can work, but will provide them with a w-7 (taxpayer identification #) so they can pay taxes on the money they earn.

2) Drivers license and insurance...... "They dont have insurance" Guess what, until they can get a drivers license they cant get insurance. I tend to think we shot ourselves in the foot on that one. Tennessee had a driver permit program for a short while that issued permits to people who could show proof of residency (not legal, just proof) I know several immigrants who took advantage of this and had insurance. I know several who did not and I know many Americans who do not carry insurance.

3) "They should come here legally" I dont have an argument against this, but I get the feeling most people that say this feel that they are just too lazy to fill out the paperwork. That is not the case. I went to Mexico 3 times last year to visit a friend of mine. I bought a plane ticket, had my passport, hopped on the plane and away I went. While on the plane from Houston to Mexico city, I filled out my visa information and I was good to go.

My friend wants to visit me here. He has to apply to the U.S consulate in Mexico, have a house (own) in Mexico, sufficient assets to show he wont be working while he is here and then wait for the luck of the draw. 2 years so far and "its being processed".

4) They work for less.....This is true in some cases but they also do jobs that Americans wont do. I hear a chicken processing plant is not the greatest. Some companies do take advantage, and some treat all employees the same. I work for a national company and we have many immigrants working for us. They make the same wages and receive the same benefits as our American employees, but quite often work much harder. I know that my job is a union job, and I have been here for 28 years. The now hiring sign has never come down. So I dont think they are necessarily taking jobs.

My friend, works in a car wash in his town in Mexico he makes 75 pesos a day roughly $7.50 for a 12 hour shift. Some things are lots cheaper (his rent is $40 per month) on a 1 room apt. with a shared bath. But gas is more than $3 a gal there too. I understand the desire to come here.

I rattled on enough....I do believe they should come here legally, I just also believe there needs to be a sensible feasable way for that to happen. I dont think its practical to deport the 11 million already here either......lets face it...its not gonna happen.

I do not think that allowing those here to stay after paying a fine is "amnesty" They did commit a crime and the fine would serve as the penalty just like many crimes here have fines instead of jail time. When I get a speeding ticket. I pay a fine. Its not amnesty its paying a fine for a crime I committed.

Bottom line .....OUR GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM!!!

[maxwellshift]

[JRScott]

The problem is that many of them do not pay taxes. As someone else mentioned those paid in cash pay no income taxes. (Some states like TN do not have an income tax, only a sales tax.)

One way I think we could combat the shortfall in many programs that is caused by illegal immigration is to abolish the income taxes and go to sales taxes on federal, state and local levels. The sales tax is much harder to avoid paying and really is far more fair.