The issue of illegal immigrants

[One Half Full]

I think that the illegal immigrant issue covers up a basic racism in American culture. When you hear of illegals, you do not think of Germans, you think of Mexicans. The rules for illegal Immigrants are fairly new. This is a major problem. Many of those folks have spent many generations coming into the US for a season to pick grapes or whatever and send the money home. I actually do believe that without cheap labor, the cost of grapes would be higher. I feel it is a fair give and take situation. Now, what to do when the Immigrants are indeed immigrants and not just temporary "guest workers?" A US citizen can work in another country if they have an employer (or are in school there), and retain US citizenship (generally by returning to this country once a year). Can't a Mexican citizen work in the US with the same sort of rules? If the Mexican Citizen (or a German Citizen) has a valid employer, then that person should be allowed to work as a guest worker with proper visas and work permits. The situation gets sticky when there are not proper work papers and visas. That person never really needs to become a US citizen. What I dont understand is why it is Okay to allow a college professor this sort of ex-pat life and yet not a meat packer. I feel it is all classist, racist stuff. Meat packers are usually undereducated country people with less skills than a Doctor. I feel if they have a valid and legal employer, they should be allowed to stay in the country. I feel that employers who employ these people should be given better ways to get "legal" workers. I think that the illegal aliens that the press is all over are those who go beyond just being guest workers. I keep remembering though that this is the way that my Irish Immagrent for-fathers got their people over. They would work and send money for the boat trip and the other person would come over. The rules changed when the skin color changed. (My opinion, but a valid observation).

[chloe0724]

One Half Full,

I do not disagree with you that there should be more work visa's for employers to hire labor. The issue is that unlike our Irish immagrants, the ones that are coming here illegaly (mostly hispanic and chineese) are not comming through places like Ellis Island. They are not being checked for diseases and to get vaccinations. Here in Northen VA, we are seeing an upsurgance of diseases that had been irradicated many years ago in the US because of vaccinating.

It's a huge problem for our health system, school system, and the public service providers.

[Minnymouth]

Even in Ky there is a surge in the number of immigrants that is building up. Many are from Mexico, Hondorus, etc. Many are illegals and do not have papers/visas or greencards.

In our area one shows up, then his brother, another brother, and soon a wife and kids show up. Pretty soon you have a whole family of man/wife/kids/brothers/sisters/aunt/uncle all living in the same house. And none of them are legal......

But I got to give them credit where credit is due............ some of them are the HARDEST WORKING men and women I have ever seen or met in my lifetime. Especially those from Honduras. They work from dusk to dark, they don't take breaks, don't mess around on the job, and do the job right the first time. They work for low wages but do a great job...... They work in restaurants, horse parks, landscaping area, construction, in the fields picking crops or cutting tobacco. Some of the children of these illegals come here, get high school diplomas, and go on to our colleges at "special rates" for foreign exchange students. Most of these are from Honduras I have discovered. They DO NOT LIKE to be called Mexican by any means...... and they will correct you if you call them Mexican.

Should they be here, NO, no illegally. But most of them come here that way. Some have been deported and just slip back in again across the borders. And soon I'm seeing them again around town.

And yes, 75% of the money they earn is sent back to Honduras to their families there. Also they make "trips" home to Honduras once a year taking clothing, tvs, cars, lumber, building materials.
Some I know of took enough material with them back to Honduras to build a house, stayed there 3 months while they built it, then come back to the US to make more money.

A friend of mine married a man from Honduras. He said we lived in "luxury" (in a doublewide???). His children came here, they all slept in the floor, went to school, worked in the fields, horse parks, etc. and EVERYBODY gave their money to Dad to send back to Honduras. They lead a very simple, inexpensive lifestyle and don't want for much. And they all are very much "family orientated". Family comes first with them. Dad's rules is "LAW"!

We could learn a lot from them as most of us tend to be a little on the lazy side, want "gravy-train jobs" and want to live the life of luxury. We buy what we really don't need (lots of stuff) and spend money foolishly everyday.

But should they be here illegal? NO.... I don't feel that they should be. They should come here the correct way, thru Visa's and work permits. But many say that they can't come that way, and would have to wait for years before they could come. So they slip in instead.

The taxes they "don't" pay adds up very quickly. The money they send to their homeland (and don't spend here) adds up quickly. The money that is spent on "helping" them and medical bills, schooling.... all adds up quickly.

What are they contributing to our society? Only their labor...... the rest we are spending on them, or for them to send back home.

Sad part is that they "are needed"...... most of them do the jobs that the average American will no longer do. They work in the fields, minimal labor, low wages, no benefits, etc. Are they taking jobs away from us? Not, really, their doing the jobs that most here in the US will no longer do.

They have become an asset as well as being a liability at the same time.

What are we to do about the situation? Better border controls? Lots of deportation? Raid illegal sections of town and ship them out? Fine and shut down business owners for hiring them?

Something needs to change, but WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, HOW, AND WHY needs lots of answers.....

[PaKettle]

OK, for the feds to know that ss # is earning money means the employer is reporting income for that ss#. This information is turned in quarterly along with the name attached to the ss#. It is up to the feds to discover that the name and number don't match. There is nothing that I as an employer can do to verify that. Fake ss cards are a dime a dozen at the Mexican flea markets. If I hire someone who has a valid (looking) ss card, a valid (looking) green card and a valid (looking) drivers license or ID card then I've done all there is for me to do. When the feds figure it out they will notify me, this has happened once in my 12-13 years of hiring Mexicans. She had already quit so there was nothing for me to do at that point.

I'm a restaurant owner. If the Mexican invasion hadn't happened when it did we would be be in a world of $hit. We were at the point of only being able to hire crackheads and the worst of the alcoholics. I hope I never see those days again...along with about 10 bazillion other business owners.

So, like I said, as a business owner, you would agree that you prefer to have the illegal aliens here?

As to the ID thing:
I can understand that you cannot check social security cards and numbers, but really is it that hard to identify a fake Green Card now? My wife's looked much like a State ID with picture and seals and such - I would think it would be very hard to fake one that could fool me after having seen a real one.

[PaKettle]

Even in Ky there is a surge in the number of immigrants that is building up. Many are from Mexico, Hondorus, etc. Many are illegals and do not have papers/visas or greencards.

In our area one shows up, then his brother, another brother, and soon a wife and kids show up. Pretty soon you have a whole family of man/wife/kids/brothers/sisters/aunt/uncle all living in the same house. And none of them are legal......

But I got to give them credit where credit is due............ some of them are the HARDEST WORKING men and women I have ever seen or met in my lifetime. Especially those from Honduras. They work from dusk to dark, they don't take breaks, don't mess around on the job, and do the job right the first time. They work for low wages but do a great job...... They work in restaurants, horse parks, landscaping area, construction, in the fields picking crops or cutting tobacco. Some of the children of these illegals come here, get high school diplomas, and go on to our colleges at "special rates" for foreign exchange students. Most of these are from Honduras I have discovered. They DO NOT LIKE to be called Mexican by any means...... and they will correct you if you call them Mexican.

Should they be here, NO, no illegally. But most of them come here that way. Some have been deported and just slip back in again across the borders. And soon I'm seeing them again around town.

And yes, 75% of the money they earn is sent back to Honduras to their families there. Also they make "trips" home to Honduras once a year taking clothing, tvs, cars, lumber, building materials.
Some I know of took enough material with them back to Honduras to build a house, stayed there 3 months while they built it, then come back to the US to make more money.

A friend of mine married a man from Honduras. He said we lived in "luxury" (in a doublewide???). His children came here, they all slept in the floor, went to school, worked in the fields, horse parks, etc. and EVERYBODY gave their money to Dad to send back to Honduras. They lead a very simple, inexpensive lifestyle and don't want for much. And they all are very much "family orientated". Family comes first with them. Dad's rules is "LAW"!

We could learn a lot from them as most of us tend to be a little on the lazy side, want "gravy-train jobs" and want to live the life of luxury. We buy what we really don't need (lots of stuff) and spend money foolishly everyday.

But should they be here illegal? NO.... I don't feel that they should be. They should come here the correct way, thru Visa's and work permits. But many say that they can't come that way, and would have to wait for years before they could come. So they slip in instead.

The taxes they "don't" pay adds up very quickly. The money they send to their homeland (and don't spend here) adds up quickly. The money that is spent on "helping" them and medical bills, schooling.... all adds up quickly.

What are they contributing to our society? Only their labor...... the rest we are spending on them, or for them to send back home.

Sad part is that they "are needed"...... most of them do the jobs that the average American will no longer do. They work in the fields, minimal labor, low wages, no benefits, etc. Are they taking jobs away from us? Not, really, their doing the jobs that most here in the US will no longer do.

They have become an asset as well as being a liability at the same time.

What are we to do about the situation? Better border controls? Lots of deportation? Raid illegal sections of town and ship them out? Fine and shut down business owners for hiring them?

Something needs to change, but WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, HOW, AND WHY needs lots of answers.....

You make some very good points.

And as you say, it is clear that they are an asset to businesses and an asset in keeping prices down, too (veges and fruit would go up if farmers had to pay Americans more to pick the crops, and no doubt fast food and restaurant prices also would rise if they couldn't hire cheap kitchen labor... etc.)

What I wanted to bring up here is that the issue IS complex, as illustrated by what you said: "Something needs to change, but WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, HOW, AND WHY needs lots of answers...."

Last night my wife and I watched "Wetback: The Undocumented Documentaary" (available on dvd; available through Netflix, probably at Blockbuster as well). It is very good and shows you the desperate situations these people are in and why they leave their parents and children and families and friends behind to come here, and risk their lives in doing so.

It also shows the vigilante groups and border patrols working to stop them.

Mostly though it shows the situation from the point of view of the illegals, and what trials and tribulations they face in coming here, as the camera tags along as they make their way from southern countries like El Salvador through Guatemala and finally Mexico where Mexican police and criminals (one and the same, unfortunately) rob them, rape them, beat them, etc...

Very eye opening and if nothing else it will perhaps make you feel a little more compassionate towards these people, even if you still disagree with their being allowed to come here.

Here's the blurb re the documentary, which by the way, is a National Geographic production:
----------------
"Director Arturo Perez Torres's award-winning documentary about undocumented workers chronicles the life-and-death journeys of Central American and Mexican migrants as they try to gain entry to the United States without going through proper government immigration channels. The subjects' first-person perspective sheds light on individual motivations for the trek and the hazards encountered on their way to the American dream."
----------------

The problem originates with the fact that there just is not any means of making a living in some of these countries like El Salvador and Nicaragua and even some areas of Mexico.

These people face a dilemma: they cannot feed themselves and their families where they are living, they see little hope of doing so within their own countries, so they come to the USA where, if they make it here alive, they can live a decent life, and send money back to their families.

You have to SEE what many of them go through to get here, to appreciate how desperate they are. I highly recommend this documentary to anyone who can be open-minded enough to at least "take it with a grain of salt", to see "the other side of the coin" on this issue.

By the way, I am not a "liberal" on this issue. In the past I have said things like "Put up a wall at the border, with guards with machine guns. Shoot a few illegals per day as they try to cross, and soon there will be more illegals."

I still think that if we seriously decide that we as a nation WANT TO STOP illegal immigration, then that is what we should do.

However, I have softened on the issue in terms of seeing that people are people and that we should focus on trying to solve the problem, not just sweep it under the rug. That is, the real solution is to help these countries raise themselves up, to be able to provide work and a decent living for their own people. Maybe it's "not our problem", but maybe if we didn't spend billions on taking over Iraq, we could afford to help these countries in a mutually beneficial way. Not NAFTA and CAFTA which pretends to be about helping them, but really is just exploiting the people and their environment.

I don't know. It's a tough issue. I hate to see anyone going hungry and unable to make a living or take care of their health, no matter where they are from. And I know we have plenty right here in our own country who also need help.

Sorry to be so depressing, but it's a tough problem and I don't really see what the solutions are.

[epiphany]

I think that the illegal immigrant issue covers up a basic racism in American culture. When you hear of illegals, you do not think of Germans, you think of Mexicans. The rules for illegal Immigrants are fairly new. This is a major problem. Many of those folks have spent many generations coming into the US for a season to pick grapes or whatever and send the money home. I actually do believe that without cheap labor, the cost of grapes would be higher. I feel it is a fair give and take situation. Now, what to do when the Immigrants are indeed immigrants and not just temporary "guest workers?" A US citizen can work in another country if they have an employer (or are in school there), and retain US citizenship (generally by returning to this country once a year). Can't a Mexican citizen work in the US with the same sort of rules? If the Mexican Citizen (or a German Citizen) has a valid employer, then that person should be allowed to work as a guest worker with proper visas and work permits. The situation gets sticky when there are not proper work papers and visas. That person never really needs to become a US citizen. What I dont understand is why it is Okay to allow a college professor this sort of ex-pat life and yet not a meat packer. I feel it is all classist, racist stuff. Meat packers are usually undereducated country people with less skills than a Doctor. I feel if they have a valid and legal employer, they should be allowed to stay in the country. I feel that employers who employ these people should be given better ways to get "legal" workers. I think that the illegal aliens that the press is all over are those who go beyond just being guest workers. I keep remembering though that this is the way that my Irish Immagrent for-fathers got their people over. They would work and send money for the boat trip and the other person would come over. The rules changed when the skin color changed. (My opinion, but a valid observation).

Has nothing to do with racism, one-half. At least not with me. As a resident of So Cal, it is increasingly frustrating. It's the Mexicans that are pouring in here, that's just a fact. I don't blame them. I blame the government for refusing to enforce our laws. And the efforts of this administration to do everything within it's power NOT to secure the borders after 911 so that businesses have an endless supply of cheap labor is especially galling.

The simple matter of fact is that we can't afford it. It has already broken our social services systems and driven our wages down. I don't believe for one minute that they are taking jobs that Americans won't do. Americans just won't do them for the wages they are getting because it's not a living wage.

And as you stated, they are sending their money home. They are not spending it here and that has a HUGE effect on our economy..were the money to stay in the country it might offset an increase in the price of grapes.

There are also many crimes being committed by illegal aliens. LAPD police have been told not to ask criminals about their immigration status. Thank you so much, Special Order 40. The criminals get let out instead of being deported and then go out and kill someone.

There is no other country that operates this way. Mexico, for one, does not take kindly to illegal aliens in their country.

This is my number one issue, and I believe I am not alone. However, there are so few in government willing to address it, and none of the three potential presidential candidates are going to do anything sensible, so it looks like I won't be getting what I want for Christmas this year.

ep

[JRScott]

I think that the illegal immigrant issue covers up a basic racism in American culture. When you hear of illegals, you do not think of Germans, you think of Mexicans. The rules for illegal Immigrants are fairly new. This is a major problem. Many of those folks have spent many generations coming into the US for a season to pick grapes or whatever and send the money home. I actually do believe that without cheap labor, the cost of grapes would be higher. I feel it is a fair give and take situation. Now, what to do when the Immigrants are indeed immigrants and not just temporary "guest workers?" A US citizen can work in another country if they have an employer (or are in school there), and retain US citizenship (generally by returning to this country once a year). Can't a Mexican citizen work in the US with the same sort of rules? If the Mexican Citizen (or a German Citizen) has a valid employer, then that person should be allowed to work as a guest worker with proper visas and work permits. The situation gets sticky when there are not proper work papers and visas. That person never really needs to become a US citizen. What I dont understand is why it is Okay to allow a college professor this sort of ex-pat life and yet not a meat packer. I feel it is all classist, racist stuff. Meat packers are usually undereducated country people with less skills than a Doctor. I feel if they have a valid and legal employer, they should be allowed to stay in the country. I feel that employers who employ these people should be given better ways to get "legal" workers. I think that the illegal aliens that the press is all over are those who go beyond just being guest workers. I keep remembering though that this is the way that my Irish Immagrent for-fathers got their people over. They would work and send money for the boat trip and the other person would come over. The rules changed when the skin color changed. (My opinion, but a valid observation).

You do realize that the Mexican government ruthlessly patrols their southern border. They often shoot illegal immigrants into their own country and also it is not uncommon for illegal immigrant women to be raped....

At the same time they want the northern border wide open without any repercussions.....

[PaKettle]

Has nothing to do with racism, one-half. At least not with me. As a resident of So Cal, it is increasingly frustrating. It's the Mexicans that are pouring in here, that's just a fact. I don't blame them. I blame the government for refusing to enforce our laws. And the efforts of this administration to do everything within it's power NOT to secure the borders after 911 so that businesses have an endless supply of cheap labor is especially galling.

The simple matter of fact is that we can't afford it. It has already broken our social services systems and driven our wages down. I don't believe for one minute that they are taking jobs that Americans won't do. Americans just won't do them for the wages they are getting because it's not a living wage.

And as you stated, they are sending their money home. They are not spending it here and that has a HUGE effect on our economy..were the money to stay in the country it might offset an increase in the price of grapes.

There are also many crimes being committed by illegal aliens. LAPD police have been told not to ask criminals about their immigration status. Thank you so much, Special Order 40. The criminals get let out instead of being deported and then go out and kill someone.

There is no other country that operates this way. Mexico, for one, does not take kindly to illegal aliens in their country.

This is my number one issue, and I believe I am not alone. However, there are so few in government willing to address it, and none of the three potential presidential candidates are going to do anything sensible, so it looks like I won't be getting what I want for Christmas this year.

ep

I agree that with many people - like my wife and I - it is not an issue of racism. Though I have a (former) friend who is a racist and views it that way - he no longer talks to me because I married a (legal) Latina.

But my wife and I both are against illegal immigration, even though she is a Latina. So it isn't racism for us. It's just common sense. No country in the world just allows people to come in to their country, with no accounting, the way we do. And after 9/11, no less!

Do you think that the next terrorist attack might not very likely come from someone carrying a nuclear "suitcase bomb" across our southern border? It's so easy to get across, if you've got money to pay a "coyote"... I know people who go back and forth illegally once or twice a year!

Some of the countries like El Salvador and Nicaragua are getting so much money sent back from here, it is their 3rd largest source of Income! Right under bananas, for example!

If you live in Southern California Spanish speaking Latinos are literally everywhere you go, working as cashiers, order takers, gardeners, plumbers, caretakers, you name it! You cannot go anywhere where you will not overhear Spanish spoken.

However, many of the illegals ARE studying English because they want to get ahead here, they want to get better jobs and assimilate. Many of them do want to learn English. But I don't know what the percentage is. I think the fact of the matter is, many of them are from such poor backgrounds they probably barely know how to write and read Spanish. They come here just to survive and learning English after working 12 hours a day isn't high on their list of priorities.

I get mad when I see them getting free medical care and having babies in our hospitals and so on, which we are paying for, one way or another, and then those babies are legal U.S. citizens. In my opinion this law should be changed immediately. Why should we encourage women to have babies here so they can be citizens?

[epiphany]

I agree that with many people - like my wife and I - it is not an issue of racism. Though I have a (former) friend who is a racist and views it that way - he no longer talks to me because I married a (legal) Latina.

But my wife and I both are against illegal immigration, even though she is a Latina. So it isn't racism for us. It's just common sense. No country in the world just allows people to come in to their country, with no accounting, the way we do. And after 9/11, no less!

Do you think that the next terrorist attack might not very likely come from someone carrying a nuclear "suitcase bomb" across our southern border? It's so easy to get across, if you've got money to pay a "coyote"... I know people who go back and forth illegally once or twice a year!

Some of the countries like El Salvador and Nicaragua are getting so much money sent back from here, it is their 3rd largest source of Income! Right under bananas, for example!

If you live in Southern California Spanish speaking Latinos are literally everywhere you go, working as cashiers, order takers, gardeners, plumbers, caretakers, you name it! You cannot go anywhere where you will not overhear Spanish spoken.

However, many of the illegals ARE studying English because they want to get ahead here, they want to get better jobs and assimilate. Many of them do want to learn English. But I don't know what the percentage is. I think the fact of the matter is, many of them are from such poor backgrounds they probably barely know how to write and read Spanish. They come here just to survive and learning English after working 12 hours a day isn't high on their list of priorities.

I get mad when I see them getting free medical care and having babies in our hospitals and so on, which we are paying for, one way or another, and then those babies are legal U.S. citizens. In my opinion this law should be changed immediately. Why should we encourage women to have babies here so they can be citizens?

They're called anchor babies Pa, and we are the only country that allows that too. If you are a child of an illegal alien born in any other country, you are not automatically a citizen of that country.

As far as assimilation, the children do assimilate quite well but in general Spanish speaking adults who cross the border don't bother to learn English. Another thing to be annoyed about when you are dining out or at the grocery store and the clerk cannot understand what you are talking about.

Two recent examples:


I went through the Jack in the Box drive though and asked for my sandwich on sourdough. Girl asked me if I wanted the combo, I said no, but repeated that I wanted the sourdough. She asked me again if I wanted the combo. I said no, but I want sourdough bread instead of the bun. Okay, she said. I got home with a regular bun.

I was at Baja Fresh and asked the girl if they had non fat milk. She said "I don't know." I didn't feel like playing so I dropped it.

Silly examples above, yes, trivial stuff, but not entirely meaningless. Things like this happen everyday everywhere I go and if people are going to live and work here, they should be required to speak English so that they can communicate. And if I were a business owner that were hiring these people, I would be seriously concerned. But perhaps the loss of my business doesn't compare to the money they are saving.

I think the people most upset about the illegal immigration situation are the immigrants who came here legally. And rightfully so.

ep

[One Half Full]

You do realize that the Mexican government ruthlessly patrols their southern border. They often shoot illegal immigrants into their own country and also it is not uncommon for illegal immigrant women to be raped....

At the same time they want the northern border wide open without any repercussions.....

There are a string of crimes against women along the border which has lasted at least 1/2 a century. yes, I know that. These are women, not "Mexican," not "US" but Women. Cutting down on illegal immigration will not stop men from raping women. It is a totally different crime. Rape, in this case is a case of predators who find a single female alone and vulnerable. To stop these sorts of crimes, men have to change. Rapes and murders of single females can happen by coyotes or US Border Guards. How do men change "men?" I don't know. I also do not know about the quote that they shoot their own illegal aliens? Vincenzo Fox last Presedent of Mexico even encouraged them.

[JRScott]

There are a string of crimes against women along the border which has lasted at least 1/2 a century. yes, I know that. These are women, not "Mexican," not "US" but Women. Cutting down on illegal immigration will not stop men from raping women. It is a totally different crime. Rape, in this case is a case of predators who find a single female alone and vulnerable. To stop these sorts of crimes, men have to change. Rapes and murders of single females can happen by coyotes or US Border Guards. How do men change "men?" I don't know.

My point was the double standard that the Mexican government uses in relation to its borders, most crimes against women and illegals on the southern border of Mexico are performed by Mexican soldiers/police.

[One Half Full]

You see, I feel there should be a safe way-- a legal way for these people to work here. I feel I am not in the majority. I guess i know enough US citizens getting work abroad to understand that there needs to be a more "transparent" and worldwide border situation. Since i do not feel I would work for 5 bucks an hour in a freezing meat packing plant, living in a dorm situation, I welcome these guest workers to it. How can they safely do their low wage job without being spat on, and humiliated and treated like terrible people? They want what we all want. They are human beings too. I cant say much more than that.

[epiphany]

You see, I feel there should be a safe way-- a legal way for these people to work here. I feel I am not in the majority. I guess i know enough US citizens getting work abroad to understand that there needs to be a more "transparent" and worldwide border situation. Since i do not feel I would work for 5 bucks an hour in a freezing meat packing plant, living in a dorm situation, I welcome these guest workers to it. How can they safely do their low wage job without being spat on, and humiliated and treated like terrible people? They want what we all want. They are human beings too. I cant say much more than that.

One Half, I hear what you're saying but it just isn't practical.

Do you realize that these people are being expoited? Those jobs wouldn't pay the crappy wages if illegals were not here and willing to work for them. Employers would be forced to pay what the job is worth.

I don't know of any illegal immigrants that have been spat on or even talked down to..are you speaking metaphorically? Who's treating them like crap besides their employers?

Again, this is not a moral issue. It is one of practicality. What cap would you put on the number of people that can come here and use the services, drive the wages down, and not pay taxes? You can bet your bottom dollar that those people that you know that are working abroad are paying taxes in the country they are working in.

I admire your compassion. Yes, we are all human beings and I sincerely wish there was a way to make us all live in peace, light, and spit free zones. However, I am not going to contribute to making America another third world country in order to make that happen.

God, this whole thing just sucks.

ep

[PaKettle]

One Half, I hear what you're saying but it just isn't practical.

Do you realize that these people are being expoited? Those jobs wouldn't pay the crappy wages if illegals were not here and willing to work for them. Employers would be forced to pay what the job is worth.

I don't know of any illegal immigrants that have been spat on or even talked down to..are you speaking metaphorically? Who's treating them like crap besides their employers?

Again, this is not a moral issue. It is one of practicality. What cap would you put on the number of people that can come here and use the services, drive the wages down, and not pay taxes? You can bet your bottom dollar that those people that you know that are working abroad are paying taxes in the country they are working in.

I admire your compassion. Yes, we are all human beings and I sincerely wish there was a way to make us all live in peace, light, and spit free zones. However, I am not going to contribute to making America another third world country in order to make that happen.

God, this whole thing just sucks.

ep

Epiphany, I agree with you basically and it is because of that, that I feel I can say this:

Watch the "Wetback" documentary. It will at least give you a bit of "the other side of the coin" perspective to help balance out your dislike of this whole situation.

I see it from both sides now. I still think we should guard the border, but I no longer blame the people who come here, and I do have a lot of compassion for their situations.

Ultimately it is SUCH a complex problem.

On the simple side of it, yeah, we could just put a wall up and shoot or punish people severely for attempting to cross illegally. That would solve the illegal immigration problem from our end.

But how will it affect our economy? As someone else pointed out, if it wasn't for illegal Latinos, he would have trouble finding people to work in his restaurant... And I'm sure there are tons of businesses like that, now, here in the U.S.. If the wages have to be raised for Americans to do these jobs once the illegals are not here, how much will that contribute to inflation in our economy: fruit and vege prices, etc..?

And further, how will it affect all those people in Latin countries to the south of us who cannot live, who cannot buy food for their kids? "Not my problem"... Yeah, in a way that's true... But the way I see it we do need to help solve the problem, one way or another. Because we are all humans, and we all want to help fellow humans.

For one thing, we should decide how many foreign low-wage laborers we need, and set up a system where we can keep track of them once they are here, and allow them to come seasonally or whatever, but NOT have babies here that become citizens automatically, NOT use too much of our health care dollars, and most importantly NOT stay here indefinitely once they are here.

Then, maybe we can do something to help these other countries fix their economies, provide work for their people in their own countries...

Maybe I'm just dreaming...

But I do believe that "where there's a will there's a way", and certainly if we were not spending billions on Iraq, we could afford to help quite a few people - not by giving them food but by helping them grow their own, etc. etc...

[ssdsco]