I just read through the American Dream No Longer Exists thread and a lot of it got side-tracked onto the "illegal alien" issue and I wanted to comment on that but I figured it would be better to start a new thread on it.
The issue of Illegal Immigration is a lot more complicated than it seems.
My first thought - and the one I keep coming back to - is that illegal immigration is, well, ILLEGAL. So why should illegal immigrants have rights, get legal I.D., hold regular jobs in the U.S., be eligible to buy things on credit, get free medical and health care, etc. etc.?
Until we change the law, we should - in my view - enforce the law, build impenatrable walls at our borders, and any illegal immigrants should be sent back to their country. If they're caught a 2nd time, maybe some hard time for a few months would be in order before sending them back.
Right now, the way it works, though is this:
The powers that be - the restaurant businesses, the construction businesses, the fast food businesses, the factories, etc. etc. WANT the illegals here. They want to employ them because they can get away with paying them lower than normal wages, and they don't have to give them vacation time or sick days or any other benefits that Americans are accustomed to.
Here in California the illegals are everywhere, in every business.
I personally know many illegals: one woman who's illegal who is the assistant manager at Carl's Jr. Another one works at a laundromat. Another works at Pizza Hut as assistant manager. Another works for a company who cares for elderly people in their own homes. Another works for a bakery baking bread and pastries...
They are mostly pretty good workers and the businesses want them here.
Why do you think the governor of California wanted to give them driver's licenses and why Bush has talked of giving them amnesty? The reason is that both large and small businesses want them here.
Now, whether or not we SHOULD want them here - that is a whole other question:
Let's think about this:
Apparently they do farm work that most Americans will not do anymore: picking grapes, picking corn, picking whatever it is that needs picking. When I was a kid we white folks did the picking where I grew up, but nowadays I guess they won't do it, or so we're told. In any case, the Latinos do it now and the farmers - or should I say agri-business people - seem to be happy with this arrangement.
Why do the fast food people want them? I'm not sure, but I assume it's because there are a lot to choose from, they must do decent work, and they probably never have to pay them vacation or sick days or any of that stuff. In any case it provides a large pool of constantly available workers for them and little pressure to raise wages or add benefits.
As to the illegals not paying taxes, some do and some don't. The ones who work at places like Carls Jr. do pay taxes, because the company takes out the taxes (withholding) but they will never get it back even if they over pay. Most of them are not as yet savvy enough to raise their withholding to 8 or so, so that little or no taxes are taken out.
So there seem to be many advantages to having these illegals here, at least from a business standpoint. Believe me, if Big Business did not want them here, then the borders would not be so easy to cross.
Now, as to the negatives:
They definitely do get a lot of free good and services. Not necessarilly services from the government, but some. There are free clinics that provide dentistry, vaccines, and general health care. Many illegals come across into Texas just to have their babies so that their babies will be born as U.S. citizens. Church groups and other charitible organizations provide everything from free food to free clothes to free books. My feeling is that if the illegals were not here, these organizations could and would shift to helping the homeless and poor Americans.
I am still studying this issue and though my basic instinct is to be against illegal immigration, I do see that it is a very complex issue and am willing to open my mind and heart to the idea that maybe it isn't so bad for America. But I am not saying it isn't, I'm just saying maybe.
The bottom line is this, though:
Don't hate the immigrants for coming here.
If you were in their shoes, you would probably come here too. Think about it:
You are living in a crappy country where the government and police are completely corrupt, you can't get a job and if you do get one it will be low paying, and you can't live in your own home even if you work full time, you will have to live with your relatives all in one big house. This makes for very close knit families and that has its advantages as well, but many are looking to live and have their own lives, their own homes, etc.
So you here that you can come up to the U.S. really easily. You can make $7-10/hour if you are willing to work hard, and if you share an apartment with 4-6 others you can save a lot of money.
You can get free medical care, you can even have your babies in our hospitals who will become American Citizens automatically.
You can get free clothing and free books and your kids can get free education in some of the best schools in the world.
Your kids can learn English in the schools. You can live in a safe city, in a safe apartment, and your standard of living will be much higher than what your relatives back home are used to.
Would you come?
I would.
So.... Who is at fault here? The immigrants for coming illegally, to escape abject poverty and a life with little or no future?
Or are WE at fault for allowing them - helping them - to come?
*************************************************
I should say from what I have studied and learned so far, I am against illegal immigration. So is my wife. We believe that the laws should be enforced, even if it means building an impenetrable wall all across the borders. Seems to me that ultimately building a wall would be cheaper than the way we're (not) doing it now.
I should also say that my wife has some mixed feelings - more so than I - because she is a Latina, born there, and many of her friends are illegals. My wife came here legally, at great expense to me, I might add, and studied English, got her High School Diploma here (even though she was already a teacher in her country; that accomplishment counts for next to nothing here), became an American Citizen asap, and is now working towards a job as a teacher's assistant.
But we both agree that illegal aliens getting jobs and getting free health care and free services and goods is probably not good for the U.S. and also we feel it's not fair that we had to pay thousands of dollars and go through red tape like you would not BELIEVE to get her green card and citizenship, and it doesn't seem fair if the government suddenly says "Oh, you came here illegally, broke the laws, but now we're going to make you legal permanent residents with a signature on a bill!"
On the other hand, it will help some of her friends and so, as I say, we have mixed feelings about the whole issue.
By the way some of her illegal friends are Chinese, Argentinan, and so on. Not all of them are Mexican, Nicaraguan, Guatemalan, etc. And many do want to be legal but they do not have a way to do so.
The issue of Illegal Immigration is a lot more complicated than it seems.
My first thought - and the one I keep coming back to - is that illegal immigration is, well, ILLEGAL. So why should illegal immigrants have rights, get legal I.D., hold regular jobs in the U.S., be eligible to buy things on credit, get free medical and health care, etc. etc.?
Until we change the law, we should - in my view - enforce the law, build impenatrable walls at our borders, and any illegal immigrants should be sent back to their country. If they're caught a 2nd time, maybe some hard time for a few months would be in order before sending them back.
Right now, the way it works, though is this:
The powers that be - the restaurant businesses, the construction businesses, the fast food businesses, the factories, etc. etc. WANT the illegals here. They want to employ them because they can get away with paying them lower than normal wages, and they don't have to give them vacation time or sick days or any other benefits that Americans are accustomed to.
Here in California the illegals are everywhere, in every business.
I personally know many illegals: one woman who's illegal who is the assistant manager at Carl's Jr. Another one works at a laundromat. Another works at Pizza Hut as assistant manager. Another works for a company who cares for elderly people in their own homes. Another works for a bakery baking bread and pastries...
They are mostly pretty good workers and the businesses want them here.
Why do you think the governor of California wanted to give them driver's licenses and why Bush has talked of giving them amnesty? The reason is that both large and small businesses want them here.
Now, whether or not we SHOULD want them here - that is a whole other question:
Let's think about this:
Apparently they do farm work that most Americans will not do anymore: picking grapes, picking corn, picking whatever it is that needs picking. When I was a kid we white folks did the picking where I grew up, but nowadays I guess they won't do it, or so we're told. In any case, the Latinos do it now and the farmers - or should I say agri-business people - seem to be happy with this arrangement.
Why do the fast food people want them? I'm not sure, but I assume it's because there are a lot to choose from, they must do decent work, and they probably never have to pay them vacation or sick days or any of that stuff. In any case it provides a large pool of constantly available workers for them and little pressure to raise wages or add benefits.
As to the illegals not paying taxes, some do and some don't. The ones who work at places like Carls Jr. do pay taxes, because the company takes out the taxes (withholding) but they will never get it back even if they over pay. Most of them are not as yet savvy enough to raise their withholding to 8 or so, so that little or no taxes are taken out.
So there seem to be many advantages to having these illegals here, at least from a business standpoint. Believe me, if Big Business did not want them here, then the borders would not be so easy to cross.
Now, as to the negatives:
They definitely do get a lot of free good and services. Not necessarilly services from the government, but some. There are free clinics that provide dentistry, vaccines, and general health care. Many illegals come across into Texas just to have their babies so that their babies will be born as U.S. citizens. Church groups and other charitible organizations provide everything from free food to free clothes to free books. My feeling is that if the illegals were not here, these organizations could and would shift to helping the homeless and poor Americans.
I am still studying this issue and though my basic instinct is to be against illegal immigration, I do see that it is a very complex issue and am willing to open my mind and heart to the idea that maybe it isn't so bad for America. But I am not saying it isn't, I'm just saying maybe.
The bottom line is this, though:
Don't hate the immigrants for coming here.
If you were in their shoes, you would probably come here too. Think about it:
You are living in a crappy country where the government and police are completely corrupt, you can't get a job and if you do get one it will be low paying, and you can't live in your own home even if you work full time, you will have to live with your relatives all in one big house. This makes for very close knit families and that has its advantages as well, but many are looking to live and have their own lives, their own homes, etc.
So you here that you can come up to the U.S. really easily. You can make $7-10/hour if you are willing to work hard, and if you share an apartment with 4-6 others you can save a lot of money.
You can get free medical care, you can even have your babies in our hospitals who will become American Citizens automatically.
You can get free clothing and free books and your kids can get free education in some of the best schools in the world.
Your kids can learn English in the schools. You can live in a safe city, in a safe apartment, and your standard of living will be much higher than what your relatives back home are used to.
Would you come?
I would.
So.... Who is at fault here? The immigrants for coming illegally, to escape abject poverty and a life with little or no future?
Or are WE at fault for allowing them - helping them - to come?
*************************************************
I should say from what I have studied and learned so far, I am against illegal immigration. So is my wife. We believe that the laws should be enforced, even if it means building an impenetrable wall all across the borders. Seems to me that ultimately building a wall would be cheaper than the way we're (not) doing it now.
I should also say that my wife has some mixed feelings - more so than I - because she is a Latina, born there, and many of her friends are illegals. My wife came here legally, at great expense to me, I might add, and studied English, got her High School Diploma here (even though she was already a teacher in her country; that accomplishment counts for next to nothing here), became an American Citizen asap, and is now working towards a job as a teacher's assistant.
But we both agree that illegal aliens getting jobs and getting free health care and free services and goods is probably not good for the U.S. and also we feel it's not fair that we had to pay thousands of dollars and go through red tape like you would not BELIEVE to get her green card and citizenship, and it doesn't seem fair if the government suddenly says "Oh, you came here illegally, broke the laws, but now we're going to make you legal permanent residents with a signature on a bill!"
On the other hand, it will help some of her friends and so, as I say, we have mixed feelings about the whole issue.
By the way some of her illegal friends are Chinese, Argentinan, and so on. Not all of them are Mexican, Nicaraguan, Guatemalan, etc. And many do want to be legal but they do not have a way to do so.
A NEW START!!!
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