Would you be upset if your husband did this?

[Bandit]

Uhh... debate? Heated? (Am I missing something?)

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone... I really didn't realize we were having a controversy. Again, my apologies.

hee hee, I think I may have started it but I don't have anything I am sorry for saying, so far.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

hee hee, I think I may have started it but I don't have anything I am sorry for saying, so far.

*laugh* Me neither, actually. I'm sorry I went too far or overwhelmed the OP. What I wrote I have to stand by... like you, I've seen it, I've lived it, watched lives destroyed by it, and I can't mince words about it. I really appreciated what everyone had to say, and their frankness in doing so: it's not an easy subject. And it's not about everyone agreeing, either: you get the best info when there is a diversity of opinion, no question about it.

Robivi3 had a great point: "We think nowadays that offending someone is bad. That thinking is wrong, in certain situations offense can be a great help." I agree, and I hope very much that in the end OP will find that having this discussion was a help and not a hindrance, even though it must be exceptionally uncomfortable to read. (It would be for me!) But there's a lot of really good info from all points of view here -- I really hope she prints all this out and comes back to it in a week or two when everything at home has chilled out some and she's no longer trying to take it all in and figure it out while she's still fighing it out at home.

But I must say, in praise of all here, that this is the absolutely GENTLEST, NICEST, KINDEST "heated debate" in which I have ever been engaged.

[JollyGG]

Isn't it interesting how each of our own experiences and history color each of ours perspective of DivorceRuinedMe's situation.
I have a good marriage to a wonderful man who upon the rare occasion does stupid things and who upon occasion acts like an a**. My husband’s least charming side usually comes out when he is stressed about something. But usually he puts up with opinionated, assertive, hard to live with me and continues to lavish me with love and support.

So I read her post and a I see a fundamentally sound marriage where a husband was a major bonehead for the weekend.
Others have abuse in their past, either in their marriage, parents, or other relationships and they see the warning signs of abuse.
Others have experience with alcohol and substance abuse and they see that in this situation.
I guess we all need to realize that DivorceRuinedMe's marriage and her husband are unique to them. We can offer our experiences and our take on what we have read but only she knows what is going on in her home and only she can make the best decisions for her family.

As for weather or not going out drinking with the boys once a week is normal or not. What happens in other relationships is really irrelevant to each persons own family. Your husband and you need to define your own normal and acceptable.

To use the example I did earlier. My husband's gaming pastimes could be seen as juvenile by others. The amount of time he spends could be viewed as excessive. Or to wives that are more tolerant than I am, my no WOW while the kids are awake could be seen as controlling. However, for the two of us at this exact point in our relationship we are both comfortable with where we are at.

My husband may go out with friends 6 times one month and then there may be months at a time when he doesn't go out with his friends at all. I actually start urging him to give a friend a call if a month goes by without seeing some of his single buddies. I think it is important that he keep those connections to his friends. One friend he goes to a local micro brew and has a few drinks with. The other friends cons him into going clubing (which usually results in my husband coming home and thanking me for marrying him.) We have a once a month poker game at our house that is supposed to be part social and part social networking (career) since it is a bunch of computer guys and they are always encouraged to bring new computer guys along. And all of this is normal for us. My husband and I had to define those rules ourselves.

The rules of normal and expectable behavior will be different from person to person and even at different points in a relationship. For example my husbands gaming at one point was a bigger issue for us. Now, we find other things to negotiate and argue about.

DivorceRuinedMe, I am very happy that you and your husband are working things out and are striving to find the necessary balance in your relationship.

Best of luck.

[Bandit]

I know one way to find out if someone is an alcoholic.

Try changing the routine of when that person drinks & see what happens.
For example, instead of them going to the friends house every friday to get drunk, this friday we are going to get a babysitter for four hours & go from around 8pm to midnight. First to dinner at a place that serves no beer, no wine & no liquor. Then on to a two hour movie. This could really still be a fun night out with no drinking.

Then a couple of fridays down the road, come up with something a little different, maybe where the whole family could go do something & cut it right along the edge watching to see if they have to still go run out & get drunk. Also watch to see if the drinking habit will change from that friday night over to a saturday because now they will have to wait 2 whole weeks before drinking again. If someone can get passed all that with ease, then there is most likely not a problem.

You will find out real quick if that person MUST have their drinking night or if they are able to pass it up to do something different from time to time. They will kick & scratch & there may even be resentment, but you will then know for sure.

Minny hit on this a little bit. Typically we think of a drinking problem as someone who stays drunk all day & night, but there are different types of addicts & it is hard to say how that is always going to go. You can learn quite a bit from a routine. I mean, it is not exactly the same as going to the gym to stay fit or joining a baseball league for the summer, type of routine.

I have an acquaintance for over 10 years, I can tell you that no one is going to change his drinking habit days for happy hour on wed. & fri. from 4 to 7 and he gets wasted on both those nights, wearing the crown for never missing happy hour.

I know this is all stupid stuff to have to go through, but it is still a reality check.

[EZDUZIT449]

JOLLYGG'

OP's complaints were far more than the weekly binge or nights out. She had lengthly posts about his verbal, manupuliative and mental behavior in between these periodic bouts. These are usualy the sympoms of aclohol abuse or alcoholism and spousal abuse. Not to mention the tranquilizers he uses while drinking. Your missing the point. The weekly outings are irrelevant at this point in there marriage. The problem has become unmanageable in her household and the children are put at risk due to both parents unwillingness to seek immediate intervention or a plan of action. Alls I continue to hear from OP,s latest is he said she said he said she said.

I took this as a serious cry for help, especially going thru bankruptcy < a serious stressor> and posting this info on this forum. In other words she has no support system,,,other than to cry for help on a bankruptcy forum.

I just pray this family of four babies can be saved and soon

God Bless

[9877donna]

Div,

I have been reading this entire thread. I have not commented before because I have never walked in your shoes, therefore it would not be fair to comment.

What amazes me is that you are the only one working. Why? I am sorry, but he needs to go to work and contribute to the household. It is definitely time for him to grow up and take his responsibilities like a man. There is no "I" in the word team. Then he has the b_lls to act like it is okay to party party with his little friends every Friday. Sorry, but I find that so unacceptable.

I have been married to the same man for over 37 years. He works full time, helps me with the housework and honestly, I can't remember the last time he disappeared for hours to go play with his friends.

Sorry. The man is a loser.

Sorry OP but I fully agree with the above poster.

[JollyGG]

Div,

I have been reading this entire thread. I have not commented before because I have never walked in your shoes, therefore it would not be fair to comment.

What amazes me is that you are the only one working. Why? I am sorry, but he needs to go to work and contribute to the household. It is definitely time for him to grow up and take his responsibilities like a man. There is no "I" in the word team. Then he has the b_lls to act like it is okay to party party with his little friends every Friday. Sorry, but I find that so unacceptable.

I have been married to the same man for over 37 years. He works full time, helps me with the housework and honestly, I can't remember the last time he disappeared for hours to go play with his friends.

Sorry. The man is a loser.

Sorry OP but I fully agree with the above poster.

See, to me this is sexist. If a woman chooses to stay home with the children and not work no one thinks anything of it. No one thinks any less of her. However, if a man stays home and cares for the children he is viewed as a looser who should get out there, get a job, and support his family. This doesn't seem fair to me. The OP obviously make a good salary. She herself said that she needed to be a family of six in order to pass the means test. Therefore I am sure that after the bankruptcy is over she will have the means to support her family. Both my husband and choose to work, but there are many advantages to having a stay at home parent. I don't see if it matters if that parent is mom or dad. If mom has more earning potential by all means let Dad stay home and take care of the children.

Now having non traditional roles can be difficult and stressful, but if they can work out each of their responsiblilites in a manner that works for both of them more power to them. Stay at home dads are becoming more and more common. I know of at least two couple who I work with where she works and he stays home. It works out great for both of them.

[$$only4ever]

See, to me this is sexist. If a woman chooses to stay home with the children and not work no one thinks anything of it. No one thinks any less of her. However, if a man stays home and cares for the children he is viewed as a looser who should get out there, get a job, and support his family. This doesn't seem fair to me. The OP obviously make a good salary. She herself said that she needed to be a family of six in order to pass the means test. Therefore I am sure that after the bankruptcy is over she will have the means to support her family. Both my husband and choose to work, but there are many advantages to having a stay at home parent. I don't see if it matters if that parent is mom or dad. If mom has more earning potential by all means let Dad stay home and take care of the children.

Now having non traditional roles can be difficult and stressful, but if they can work out each of their responsiblilites in a manner that works for both of them more power to them. Stay at home dads are becoming more and more common. I know of at least two couple who I work with where she works and he stays home. It works out great for both of them.

Frankly, Jolly GG it had nothing to do with being sexist. My point is:

1) He doesn't work
2) She is supporting everyone; him, a new baby and his children from a previous marriage
3) According to her, he does very little around the house


I could go on and on, but if you read her posts, she is in an abusive situation. I feel bad for her and worse for the kids.

Never being in that situation, I really should not pass judgement, but she is unhappy...unhappy mommys make unhappy children.

I think that she and the kids deserve better. Just my opinion.

[Minnymouth]

Just because he's a stay at home dad, does not make a man a BUM... or a sorry worthless man.

Often when the wife makes a higher income, it is cheaper for the man to stay home with 4 kids, then it is for childcare, gas, expenses for a new job, etc.

Lots of men make "GREAT MR. MOM'S" or better known as "STAY AT HOME DAD'S...

[jennordhavn]

See, to me this is sexist. If a woman chooses to stay home with the children and not work no one thinks anything of it. No one thinks any less of her. However, if a man stays home and cares for the children he is viewed as a looser who should get out there, get a job, and support his family. This doesn't seem fair to me. The OP obviously make a good salary. She herself said that she needed to be a family of six in order to pass the means test. Therefore I am sure that after the bankruptcy is over she will have the means to support her family. Both my husband and choose to work, but there are many advantages to having a stay at home parent. I don't see if it matters if that parent is mom or dad. If mom has more earning potential by all means let Dad stay home and take care of the children.

Now having non traditional roles can be difficult and stressful, but if they can work out each of their responsiblilites in a manner that works for both of them more power to them. Stay at home dads are becoming more and more common. I know of at least two couple who I work with where she works and he stays home. It works out great for both of them.

I agree, JollyGG. Sometimes the woman can earn more and it makes more sense financially for the man to stay home. That doesn't mean he's a loser who doesn't support his family. Also, it is usually a temporary situation.

For example, when I met my DF I made almost 50% more than him. I have a bachelor's degree and a JD so my earning potential is much greater than his. He had a stable job for 16 years, but was stuck as far as salary and potential for growth in his position. When we had a baby, it was a real wake up call. He realized he wants a career, not just a job. After struggling with the idea (and paying a TON of money in daycare) we decided he should go to school (online and at night) and get financial aid to pay his child support, health insurance, credit card, gas, etc. and I would pay all the household bills. This saved us about $900/mo. in daycare. He did also have a part time job from 4 am - 8 am (so it didn't interfere with childcare or school) until we moved in August. This is what works for our family.

Now he will be getting his certificate next semester and we're trying to decide if he should continue his schooling or get a full time job. I think we're leaning toward him continuing school and maybe finding a part time job. We will then put the baby in preschool a couple mornings a week so he has time to study.

I think that a father staying home to take care of the kids is a wonderful thing. My DD and her daddy are extremely close and he adores her. They have developed a really strong bond. He still struggles with the mentality that he is not "contributing" because of how society perceives SAHDs, but everytime he says that I tell him he contributes by watching and raising our daughter. That is the most important contribution of all in my opinion.

Anyways, I totally agree with JollyGG. However, in this situation, it is not just about the Dad staying home, it is also about his going out and getting drunk and not being able to take care of the kids properly. That is another issue entirely.

[chpxiii]

I'll put in a comment about the SAHD. The "Stay At Home Dad." I have a friend who is a SAHD. He's not a bum. I don't consider him a bum. Why? Because he homeschooled his wife's children (they were from a previous union). He cleaned up around the house, did the laundry, home schooled, etc. etc. And he didn't expect to have his "night out" with the other tom cats carousing around the neighborhood. He did, however, have a weekly D&D game with other guys on Sunday afternoons. That's it.

I have a coworker who earns more than her husband. He stays home and watches the kid, takes care of stuff around the house, etc. He gets his "day off" on Saturday daytime.

These two men are not deadbeat losers. They are doing their part for the family, much like women who stayed at home do all these millenia. And neither of these two men demanded, expected, or insisted on their "time off." Essentially, it's a traditional family situation, except the gender is the opposite.

From the OP's posts through out the thread, she mentioned how her husband didn't do much around the house (i.e. he's not doing his "job" of being a stay at home *parent*), and also insisted on and expected certain time. She described his lack of respect in the way he treats her and in the way he is training his children to treat her. He is unwilling to compromise and is EXPECTING to be head of the house when he has done NOTHING to earn that.

A completely different situation that the first two men I described.

The situation is not sexist. It's one side.

[DivorceRuinedMe]

I have been keeping up with everything everyone is writing - just wanted you all to know.

I have another wrench now in my life - my C7 case was pulled for audit. And my husband is of the type to poo poo my worrying. He says I worry too much and that is why I am a stressed out (insert expletive here) sometimes. He wishes I would just calm down and let things happen as they may. I'm getting better at doing that but it's extremely difficult for me to do this.

I know that I have no control over the audit right at this very moment so I just have to let it go until I know more. UGH - ugh ugh ugh ugh! WHYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Okay - I feel a lil better now.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

I have another wrench now in my life - my C7 case was pulled for audit. And my husband is of the type to poo poo my worrying. He says I worry too much and that is why I am a stressed out (insert expletive here) sometimes. He wishes I would just calm down and let things happen as they may. I'm getting better at doing that but it's extremely difficult for me to do this.

Oh, I'm so sorry! In another thread I asked you not to worry -- I didn't realize husband was poo-pooing you. I wouldn't have said a word if I'd known you were getting it at home like this. Dismissing your fear as irrational was so not my intent. (Like I said, I'd be sweating bullets too.)

If it helps at all, I do NOT believe "just calm down and let things happen as they may" is in anyone's best interest either, and didn't mean to imply that. Only that worry is best saved for when it is actually needed, and right now it's too soon to know.

I don't know that it's possible not to worry at all, but I have had some success with trying to defer thought on a subject: "I refuse to think about _____ until I have more information." That kind of thing helps me a lot. It's not that I don't worry, it's that I put it off until my concentrated attention to the issue may actually be useful. Seems to help.

Anyway, I just wanted to say poo-pooing was never my intent. Take care!

[Bandit]

I have been keeping up with everything everyone is writing - just wanted you all to know.

So are we reminding you of Days of Our Lives, yet?
Like sands through the hourglass...

I have another wrench now in my life - my C7 case was pulled for audit. And my husband is of the type to poo poo my worrying. He says I worry too much and that is why I am a stressed out (insert expletive here) sometimes. He wishes I would just calm down and let things happen as they may. I'm getting better at doing that but it's extremely difficult for me to do this.

A poo poo audit, what else? Round & round it goes, where does it end? Nobody knows.

I tell you what, unless your spouse is going through the BK with you - as in he is in the BK, then they don't have a clue at how stressful your life is.
Maybe you should go with him on friday to the friends & have a drink or two & pile all the kids in the car with you & make him the designated driver

Now that sounds like a plan.

[Granny]

Now he will be getting his certificate next semester and we're trying to decide if he should continue his schooling or get a full time job. I think we're leaning toward him continuing school and maybe finding a part time job. We will then put the baby in preschool a couple mornings a week so he has time to study.

Check into Mother's Day Out programs. They are exceptional and much cheaper than full blown preschool programs. We pay 125.00 a month for 2 days a week from 9-2. My granddaughter has Spanish class, tumbling, crafts, chapel and classroom time. She will be fully ready for kindergarten next year. It's at a church we don't attend as members, but we have been welcomed with open arms.