Would you be upset if your husband did this?

[DivorceRuinedMe]

Well, things have gotten interesting since I last wrote.

We started discussing things again and he basically told me that he was sorry for doing all that when he had to get up the next day to care for the baby. He admitted irresponsibility and he said it won't happen again.

He still maintains that he will go out EVERY Friday night and there's nothing I can do to change that.

I agree that he's trying to live the single life and be married at the same time. My life is just too complicated right now to leave him. With the bankruptcy and all, I HAVE to be married with 2 other dependents to pass the means test so until this BK is over, then I'm stuck here. Then it gets even more complicated b/c I transferred my job to be with him (mistake #1). I can't get a transfer back to my old office so I would be stuck out here in this new office with no friends or family around. The only way out is a promotion, which they are few and far between and with 2 small kids it's hard for me to stay late at work and kiss a lot of management butt when I often have to take time off for my babies. So, basically I'm stuck here.

While we were having our discussion he decided we were done talking and he left and went back to his friends house. He did TRY to intimidate me by getting right up in my face (he's 6'1 and I'm 5'4). It didn't work though as I'm not afraid to be hit. Was abused in my last marriage and I took it until my children were in danger and THEN I left. Stupid I know but it was more emotional abuse, very little physical.

So, anyway in past discussions, we agreed he wouldn't walk out like that anymore b/c it wasn't productive and b/c it upsets me. He did it b/c he knew it would upset me, not b/c he wanted to get away from me or anything like that. We weren't even arguing really - just talking. He didn't like what I was saying so he left.

I called him after I composed myself and asked him to come home. He refused, said he'd come home when HE felt like it. He's done that before and stayed out all night. I was like, well, then if you are going to break our agreement of you not walking out then all bets are off - the floodgates are open. He was like, fine and that was the end of it.

He came home 2 hours later. During the time that he was gone I did the laundry, just not his. He HATES laundry so I knew this would get to him. I told him that I didn't do the laundry and he was angry. He told me that if that's the way I wanted to be then fine. He went to bed.

On Sundays he gets up with the baby. He refused to get up unless I was going to do his laundry. I told him that he's the one that chose to leave and then not come home when I asked him to. He broke the rules first. And I did laundry during that break so he can do his own laundry this week and that's the end of it. Why should I have to suffer his consequences and he not have to suffer mine?

I got up with the baby and turned our receiver on the stereo up as loud as I could and have been blasting Xmas music for the past 2 hours. He still wont' get out of bed.

I'm with the baby in her room. Just lovely. I hate my life.

[Flamingo]

My husband goes out every Friday night to his best friends house. He leaves our house between 7 and 8pm and stays till around 2-2:30am. He drinks while he's there.

I go nowhere as I have an infant at home that can't be left alone and we have no money to pay a babysitter to have someone watch her anyway. I don't ever go out without him for various reasons one being that the other weekend night that we are home (Saturday nights), I like to spend it with him watching a movie or just hanging out together. I guess I could conceivably go out on that night without him if I chose to. But then we'd lose our time together.

Last night he went out and stayed out until 5:30am. When he got home I was just getting up to get ready for work and he reeked of alcohol. AND - to top it all off, I had to leave the house at 7am to go to work for some overtime so that we can afford xmas gifts for the 4 kids we have. (he's a stay at home Dad)

I got a little worried about leaving the baby with him but he said he'd be up when I had to leave (which mind you, was only an hour and a half away). I got in the shower, did my thing and when I went to wake him up he wouldn't get out of bed. I already got the baby up (she wakes around 630am) and got her all dressed. She was just waiting for him to give her her bottle. I asked him to get up and out of bed b/c there has been many occassions where he will sleep through her screaming (we've had arguments about it in the past) so I was hesitant to just leave him alone with her after a night of drinking and literally 1 and a half hours of sleep. He finally got up (made me late for work waiting on him) and was VERY ANGRY at me for making him get out of bed. He said he was up and that I should just go to work. In good conscience for the baby's sake, I just couldn't force myself to do that.

He made me feel so awful about the whole situation. Like I have no reason to be worried about him caring for the baby with no sleep and hung over. He says there are plenty of mornings that he gets no sleep and I was like, well, not after a night of drinking! So now he's mad at me, I'm at work and I'm just so lost right now.

Would you be mad if you were in my situation? I know this whole weekend is shot now b/c he holds grudges and won't talk to me until *I* apologize to him.

UGH. Life just sucks sometimes.

I almost gasped when I read your posting and had to respond. Your situation sounds a lot like my first marriage. My first husband was an alcoholic and would sometimes wait until I fell asleep to go hang out over his buddies' houses and sneak back in before I got up. Little did he know I totally knew what he was up to. He was also having an affair with my best friend which I did not find out until years later. We also had two young daughters when that was occuring. The final straw was when he came home in an alcoholic stupor and pulled out the vacuum cleaner in front of me and the two children and started talking to it, slapping it, calling it bad and putting it outside the front door on the step. I sent the girls to their rooms and tried to get him to bed and that I would call into work for him again cause there was no way he could go in, plus I had to get the girls to school (grades 1 and 2 at the time). Time stood still as he pulled out a pistol and pointed it at me. Where he got the gun, I never found out. He stated as he pointed it at me that he was jealous of me being able to keep it together while he felt trapped and just wanted to party and not have any responsibilities. He was standing by the back door when this occurred. He opened the back door and shot the pistol into the ground in the backyard. The boom was enormous and to this day I have no idea as to what the neighbors thoughth it was or where it came from. We were just another friendly family on the street - they had no idea. Well, after that incident, I gather the screaming freaked out children and headed directly to my mother's house and called a lawyer. I never went back and filed for divorce. It was the hardest thing I ever did in my life. My former, now deceased, husband was abusive, alcoholic and also using drugs I found out and could not get himself straightened out or away from the crowd he started hanging with. My best friend he was having an affair with came to me and apologized years later and she asked me how I was able to put up with him. He was never able to keep a girlfriend after all that, he ended up abusing them verbally, physically and mentally and continued drinking. I truly believe no one could help him unless he was put in jail for several years to get away from the alcohol, drugs and bad crowd. It was a huge downward spiral.

He will not easily give up his nightly outings. Realize that now and get some support for you and your children. Do you have family close by that can help you? He is finding his fun outside of the home because he feels trapped with responsibility. You also need to investigate who he is spending time with. This is a change in your lifestyle so something is going on. Plus, as all abusive, controlling men do, they blame you for their actions. You need to speak to someone about all of this to find out how you can reverse what is going to continue unless you get some good marital counseling and get some family/friends. behind you to support you. This will not get better on its own, plus it is affecting your children. Protect yourself and protect them.

[rrockinggramma]

check out shelters for women in your area. We have one in our area. They let you stay there and help you get yourself together. If you left, what happens to his kids? Do they have a mother? Would you take them with you? I wouldn't leave them with him. Wow. You need to get out of this situation before it gets worse. my heart goes out to you.

[Bandit]

We started discussing things again and he basically told me that he was sorry for doing all that when he had to get up the next day to care for the baby. He admitted irresponsibility and he said it won't happen again.

He still maintains that he will go out EVERY Friday night and there's nothing I can do to change that.

Um, that does not sound like much of an apology when someone says, "Sorry for doing that but I will do it again & again & again."

While there are very few perfect relationships, Someone is getting the short end of the rope on this tug of war. Ever think of just letting your end of the rope go for awhile?...you could always pick it up later if you want, of course after the other person falls on his butt.

OTH- some people don't care if there dirty laundry is clean. Wash, dry, fold, put away, week after week...Isn't that what the stay at home parent is supposed to be doing while the bread winner is at work? Then you would not have to be doing it when the weekend comes?

Let me ask,
1) Who does the shopping for food?
2) Who is making the beds?
3) Who is cooking & paying for the meals?
4) Who is sending out the cheks for the bills?
5) Who is mopping & vacumming?
6) Who does the laundry?
7) Who is cleaning the dishes & toilets?
8) Who is really watching the baby?

the list can get very long...

I'm with the baby in her room. Just lovely. I hate my life.

I hate my life too.

You don't hate your life because of your baby, I am sure. It is the adult baby that is doing that right now.
I hope it will change for the better soon.

[DivorceRuinedMe]

Oh dear, I didn't mean for it to sound like I hate my life b/c I was with the baby. What I meant was, I hate that I have to sequester myself in her room b/c of the loud music that I'm blaring so he will get out of bed. Ack- that totally came out wrong when I first wrote it, huh!

And Bandit, to answer all of your questions - I do all of those things. The only thing that I don't do is cook anymore. And the reason I don't cook is b/c his 5 year old son would make a face, say he wasn't going to eat the food I cooked and made statements of how gross and disgusting the food was. So, I gave up on cooking. We now eat just the basics that his son will eat and he does ALL cooking. This all just changed recently - like within the past couple of months. I just couldn't take it anymore. I didn't want someone constantly ridiculing me like that - even if it was a child. And my husband, he'd laugh at him when he did this, hurting me even more. He's since asked his son to keep his mouth shut if he doesn't like what is in front of him but that doesn't change the fact that I'm not cooking anymore. I refuse.


But all the other house work I do. Well, wait - he does vacuum the house once a week (if he feels like it). But all the other stuff, I do. He says it's too hard for him to take care of 3 kids all day (he has all 4 for like an hour and a half a day when his son gets home from school) and that it's all he can take to supervise and take care of him. That he can't possibly do anything else at all around the house. He even fusses at me if I ask him to fix a runny toilet or G-d forbid, put away some laundry that I've washed and folded.

Sigh -

I just thought that this man was different. He portrayed himself so differently before we were married and living together. He was like, if I stay at home with the kids, I'll do all the house stuff and take care of the baby at night if she gets up or wakes up in the AM. Not that I expect him to do EVERYTHING around the house, but I thought that it would be a little different I guess.

I'm just glad to have you guys to talk to while he's ignoring me. He's addicted to this game called Everquest on the internet. He spends what little free time I'm here on the weekend on that thing for the most part.

[Granny]

I am a huge Dr Phil fan and one of his best quotes is

" A child would rather be from a broken home than live in one"

[BKOnce]

These words exact describe him : Lazy, careless, childish, and idiot....

[JollyGG]

I'm actually not with everyone else here who seems to think you should leave.
However, I do think you need to talk to someone and you need to learn to communicate better. You need to go see a marriage counselor, seek counsel with your church, something.

You guys have a lot going on in your marriage. You both have failed first marriages, kids from previous marriages, financial problem, changes in your lifesyles (moving away from family, becoming a sole bread winner, becoming a stay at home parent), ect.

This it too much for two sets of sholders to take on and you need help with it. Please seek the help you need.

[tinroofrusted]

Please, please, please, look into seeing if there are any women's shelters out there that you could stay at for a couple of days. My heart is just breaking for you!!!!

Also, if you have a chance, get Judge Judy's book on women and read it! It has some great thoughts and advice in there!!!

God bless you!

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Kiddles got it right -- he's not married, you are.

I know you said he portrayed himself differently before you got married, but when someone is a lifelong freeloader, they get really good at their game: making up believable lies, horrifically sad stories, and oh-how-I-love-you-so-much-let's-get-married-TODAY! Is it possible he's one of those guys who just really needs a woman to support him and then blame for all his problems? Add the alcoholism to the mix, with all its denial and manipulative behavior, and what you have is someone who is only interested in keeping the status quo unchanged.

(And yeah, the escalating drinking, the denial, the danger to your children all spells alcoholism. He may not feel his drinking is a problem simply because you are keeping his life so well together for him, but yeah, his drinking is a problem. From what you say, it sounds like all he has to do is have one or two drinks and then ends up drinking all night.)

I'm so sorry, I hate to even be saying such things. But I have been drained *twice* by bastards like this (yeah, you'd think I'd have learned the first time) and, well, if you're the soft place they've found to land, the time and energy they expend in getting you to stay put FAR exceeds anything they have ever put toward a real job and a life of integrity. Most of us -- well, me at least -- just can't begin to imagine that there are people who would just LIE like that, but there are. Ohhh, there are.

As another person wrote, give yourself a time limit, and if none of his apologies and promises to change materialize by that time, take steps to live a separate life. Why? Because people like this will drain you for as long as you let them, and you have to cut it off so that you and your children can live and prosper. He may never change, but you will have to for you and your children.

If his promises actually mean something, then you'll see change. But if they don't, you have to save yourself. In the end, when you come to your deadline, if ALL you have from him are promises and threats, and the only thing to change over time is the strength with which they are delivered, you have your answer.

And for the record, I don't see how this behavior is any less abusive than hitting...

God bless you as you find your way through this.

[Bandit]

And Bandit, to answer all of your questions - I do all of those things. The only thing that I don't do is cook anymore. ......

That is just not fair or right at all. Time to kick some butt! You should still make things that you enjoy to eat & if they don't like it, then they don't have to eat what you make. You do not have to give up everything you like just because some punk 5 year old kid does not like it & makes faces. He can eat cereal!

I'm just glad to have you guys to talk to while he's ignoring me. He's addicted to this game called Everquest on the internet. He spends what little free time I'm here on the weekend on that thing for the most part

I am not sure but if my spouse/better half were playing an internet game & I also had to do all the other things at home after working all week & my partner/wife/husband were able, I would have broken the game by mistake (oops did I do that?) & tossed the game into the garbage, but that is just me.
but! since it is an internet game, just pull the plug right when the game gets real good.

You are probably in a situation where you can't just get up & leave or throw him out even if temporary, making the relationship a very hard row to hoe...and I bet you have had a lot of blank wall thoughts lately. *heavy sigh*

Oh dear, I didn't mean for it to sound like I hate my life b/c I was with the baby. What I meant was, I hate that I have to sequester myself in her room b/c of the loud music that I'm blaring so he will get out of bed. Ack- that totally came out wrong when I first wrote it, huh!

I understood what you meant & was just refering to the OTHER BIG baby who wont get a stinking job or pull his weight

Well, at least you have a place to vent & ears to listen

[DivorceRuinedMe]

All I can say to everyone is thank you for just being here through my miserable weekend. It was just so long and I'm glad it's over. I actually am excited to go back to work tomorrow. LOL.

Things have calmed down a bit here. He promised to make an effort to not do the whole drinking till 5 am thing again and he also promised to be home by 3 am at the latest on Friday nights. He said that he rarely stays out till 5am and in the 6 months that we've lived together, that has happened twice so I really can't say he does it ALL the time. He does stay out till 3 am on most friday nights though. He also said that he's still going to take naps during the weekend to make up for how hard he works all week though which kinda bothered me a bit but then again, who am I to say he can't take naps.

He doesn't try to keep me here as all the time he's saying things like, maybe *I* need to reevaluate my life if I don't like how things are. He says things like, maybe I need to leave if I'm not happy. Maybe that's manipulation, I don't know. I've always been easily manipulated and not able to realize it until it's too late. He was a salesman before he became a stay at home dad so I try to remember that when I'm dealing with him.

He made one statement that sticks in my mind though that REALLY bothered me - he said that in most relationships that work one person is the "alpha" and the other one concedes when there is a disagreement. So I was like, well, you of course are saying this b/c you want to be the alpha right? You want ME to concede when it comes down to it. He said, well yes. Then I was like, what if I said I want to be the alpha. He was like - that's not going to happen. I said, well, where I come from - people COMPROMISE when they can't agree on things. Then he said, well, that's why most marriages are like ours and one person is always not happy. I was like, I'm happy when we compromise, aren't you? He was like, well, I guess but not really. He didn't elaborate.

He talks circles around me and you wouln't think that possible seeing as I'm a college graduate that graduated summa cum laude and he's a high school drop out with a GED. I guess it's my loss of self esteem and general attitude of defeat. I feel like I"m such a loser in love and that I've all but given up.

One thing I can say about him that I couldn't say about my ex is that he does admit when he's wrong and he tries to change something that is really bothering me. I don't know - this whole thing just hurts. I thought I was done hurting. I went through the marriage and then divorce from hell and I'm right back in the thick of it, except now I have three more mouths to feed. Sigh.

Well, I've typed a book right now so I'm gonna sign off for the night.

Thank you all again for reading and for helping me just by being here.

[kiddles]

Honey - he is emotionally abisive of you, controlling of you, and encouraged his child to belittle and minimize you. This IS an abusive relationship. And the children know it. Not in those words, generally, but the kids always know - daddy gets what he wants or he pouts, drinks, makes mommy cry - whatever the consequences are to "displeasing" him.

Domestic violence is all about power and control - its not about violence. If the emotional abuse is working, then that's what he'll use. Almost always, however, it stops working or isn't working enough to suit him anymore. Then the abuse escalates - physical abuse, perhaps minor physical abuse at first. As long as that works, that's what he'll do. Generally, it stops working well enough, and the violence excalates.

And whether or not the kids are in the room, whether or not you think they see/hear or even know about it - a violent relationship between the adults in the home ALWAYS hurts the kids. ALWAYS. No exceptions. Not even for infants. And any hcild old enough to have even half-developed verbal skills knows what's going on. Even if you think they don't. Even if they're not home for the worst of it. They know.

Really.

I have been an investigator for child protective services, in the Crimes Against Children Unit, working hand-in-hand with the police detectives. In every single child fatality - there is domestic violence in the home. Sometimes it was still in the emotional abuse and control phase, sometimes the victim parent was being beaten on a regular basis. But it was ALWAYS there. I've reviewed child fatalities on a state-wide basis (always looking to improve preventative services!) and have not found EVEN ONE child fatality that did not involve domestic violence.

Now I supervise a team of social workers working in domestic violence services. Believe me when I say that DV starts out with the "little things" and escalates. I see it EVERY DAY. In EVERY CASE.

Doctors, lawyers, "welfare moms", school teachers, stick room employees - ANYONE can be a victim.

Take a good, hard look at your behavior. If you are choosing your behavior based on how he will respond - then you are being controlled. If your choices about money, sex, laundry, friends (yours or your children's) are based on keeping him happy or at least keeping him calm - you are being controlled.

If you decide to stop being controlled, and start making choices he doesn't like - his behavior may escalate.

PLEASE, PLEASE - prepare an emergency kit for yourself and your children. Birth certificates, social security cards, a stash of money, medicines, insurance cards - whatever you would need if you suddenly did not feel safe at home. Ask a trusted friend or relative to keep it for you. Or a locker at work - somewhere he can't find or get it, so that he doesn't even know about it.

PLEASE contact the spouse abuse shelter serving your area. You don't have to be a shelter resident to access their services. They can help you prepare the emergency kit, make plans, get info you may need, and help you think about what you want to do, and when you want to do it.

None of this means you are leaving, or have decided to end your marriage. It does mean you've decided to stay safe, and to keep your children safe. Hopefully, none of your mergency plans will be needed....but always better safe than sorry.

He's shown he's more than willing to behave in very inapropriate ways to ensure that things go they way he wants. He's put you in a bad situation - where you have to think about and actually decide if you are willing to make the hard choices.

Every DV fatality I've reviewed in the last 10 years involved a victim who had previously told the social worker that "he'll change", "he doesn't mean it", or "I shouldn't have made him mad" or some variation on the theme of "it's not all bad - sometimes he's wonderful!". And plenty of victims in the hospital who say "this is the first time he's ever hit me", after several years of marriage. There's always a first time.

NOTE - I am well aware that the abuser is not ALWAYS male and the victim ALWAYS female. That is the situation in the overwhelming number of cases, but there are PLENTYof DV relationships where it is the male who is abused by the female. Such men are even less likely to seek help (either from friends/relatives or from "the system").

I'm not going to presume to tell you you must leave your husband, but please be aware that the most dangerous time in a DV relationship is the end. When he's losing that power and control, he may well use more drastic means to try to regain it. PLEASE think about a safety plan for you and your children.

Ultimately, he is responsible for his behavior. He alone is responsible for his behavior. You are only responsible for your own behavior. And if you cannot trust him to behave in ways that are safe, burturing or even appropriate for you and your children, you must makeyour decisions in light of that knowledge.

[boinga]

And Bandit, to answer all of your questions - I do all of those things. The only thing that I don't do is cook anymore.

That is no "stay-at-home dad." It's a live-in babysitter that you are supporting, housing, feeding, cleaning and doing laundry for. YOU are the one who should be taking a nap on the weekends.

I hope you take the advice about having an emergency kit stashed away, just in case. If it becomes necessary to leave, you'll be glad to not have to deal with any of those details or to have to go back and confront him because you need something from the house.

I hope you're able to find a counselor or friend nearby, or even someone you know that you can talk to on the phone. I think it's very important to discuss what's going on, just to give yourself a reality check. People who are manipulative like this can get your head so screwed up that you have no idea what you should or should not be putting up with.

His statement that one partner should be the "alpha" and the other submissive would have me RUNNING for the door! That just shows ZERO understanding of what a marriage is about.

Don't sell yourself short girl. If you need to stay put because of the bk in progress at least take this time to really think about things and make some sort of plan for what to do next. A strategy for dealing with it *together* if you stay, or if you decide not to, a plan for how to leave and what you need to do to make that as easy as possible.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

He talks circles around me and you wouln't think that possible seeing as I'm a college graduate that graduated summa cum laude and he's a high school drop out with a GED. I guess it's my loss of self esteem and general attitude of defeat.

Yes, I absolutely would think it is possible. I have seen it, I have experienced it. And *I* can talk circles around most people I know! *laugh*

It's not intelligence that's at work; it's not a battle of wits. If I had to give it a name I would call it emotional cunning: the ability to read and discern even the minutest of reactions from a person, and use that information to successfully manipulate them.

What people who do this count on is that you *want* it to be good, that you're willing to wait and work and hope for the day it will all be good again, like it was in the beginning. Except that never happens, and when you look back what you see is a series of very small but dramatic "turnarounds" that happen right as you were about to leave forever. In essence, your own love, your own goodwill, your own desire to do what is right is turned against you and used as ropes to keep you there, exactly where it suits them best.

Also, I should add that having just escaped an abusive relationship may have made you a prime target for a manipulator: they promise a great deal, and the beginning is oh, so perfect, but as time goes on it's you doing all the giving. Did he get angry at small requests in the beginning like he does today? Did he refuse to listen and stomp out on you back then like he does now?

To me, passive agression and aggression are the same thing. Neither are honest or loving ways of resolving frustrations. Maybe where your first husband used fists to keep you from leaving, this one uses "You need to think about leaving," because he's betting that you won't, that that statement alone will guilt you into not going there. He knows what your dealbreakers are; if he doesn't want you to leave, he's not going to force you overtly. But he can confuse and guilt you out of thinking clearly about your situation and your options.

Are you aware that the statement itself, "You need to consider your options," is a subtle but incredibly strong threat of abandonment? It implies that HE is considering HIS options, and miraculously the focus of the emotions change: now it's not about him being bad, it's about him ending the relationship, taking back the lifeline he seems to offer. Suddenly it's no longer about what's right or how to work it out, it's about backing off to save the relationship. It is also a clear statement that, when made, says that HE has no intention of changing anything. If you're telling him, "X hurts me and makes my life harder," and he's saying, "Well, then, you need to consider your options," he just said you're SOL. It's passive aggression at its finest, like the threat of suicide except it's the relationship that would be killed. This IS manipulation.

Regarding your "loss of self esteem and general attitude of defeat," I have to tell you that if you are in a destructive and manipulative relationship, that's going to be a given. Don't be blaming yourself because you don't feel yippee-great about life when you're married to a slug of a man who doesn't work, doesn't much help, eats your food, and can't be trusted with your child.

One thing I can say about him that I couldn't say about my ex is that he does admit when he's wrong and he tries to change something that is really bothering me.

Ummm... what I said about small but dramatic changes. Just enough to create some additional hope in you. Okay, he's willing to stay out til 3am instead of 5am. Just enough to give you hope, but not put any material dent in doing whatever he wants to be doing. To not be drunk around the baby in the morning, he'd have to quit drinking a lot earlier than that. And somehow I have the feeling that if he'd made that "concession" even six months ago, you'd have laughed in his face at the ridiculousness of it. But here you are, grabbing on to it like a life raft. I have to point this out: it may not be.

Pull back and look at the big picture. Be honest with yourself. If you are investing a great deal more into this relationship (and his children) than he is -- and it doesn't turn around by, say, the time your bankruptcy is finished -- what more will it take from you? How much more will you have available to give?

That, and... what is he doing all day? I mean, what is he *really* doing all day while you're at work? If his primary interest is not the welfare of the children (and it's not, from what you've said) then you have to assume that what he would do/permit around the kids is probably a lot different than what you would do or permit. I assume you don't have money because of where we're all posting but if you had even a few bucks, I'd have one word for you: nannycam.

I don't know - this whole thing just hurts. I thought I was done hurting. I went through the marriage and then divorce from hell and I'm right back in the thick of it, except now I have three more mouths to feed. Sigh.

I guess that's why I wrote: I have so been where you are right now. And all I can say is that, as bad as it has been for you in your first marriage, as much as you wanted it to be right with this one, as much as you depended with all you had on it being different this time... if he is not committed to your wellbeing or the wellbeing of your children, you win *nothing* and lose even more by continuing to invest in the marriage. It's like throwing good money after bad, except this is your life, and the lives of your children, and years you are not going to get back.

Here's a question. If he is, say, a year from now, exactly as he is today -- or has even become worse -- what will you do? What will it take for you to see it for what it is? How bad does it have to become? Are you putting all this hope and hard work into a relationship that has basically proven real and true, or something that is becoming worse and even more UNreal with each passing day?

These are not questions you owe me an answer to, or that I would even expect you to say. But you owe it to yourself and your babies to take a cold, hard look at where you've been with this guy, where you're going, and whether you basically have a net gain or a net loss.

I am not saying leave today. I am not even saying leave tomorrow. What I am saying is grieve your losses, recognize it for what it is TODAY (not what it was yesterday, or hope it will be tomorrow), and take some concrete steps to change your life for the better, and create a safe home for yourself and your children.

(And if you don't listen to me, listen to Kiddles -- what she was saying about how to tell you're being controlled, and what place denial has in all of this, is all absolutely right on. And I agree about the shelter thing, even if you're not ready to leave. They have all been where you are now: agonizing every event, wondering whether to stay or go, wondering how to keep it all together just one more day. They CAN help. Oooh, and Boinga too! SO much good advice here. SO many people rooting for you!)

Okay, I'll shut up now. If I have overstepped in any way, please forgive me. But please don't wait until it's cost you *everything* to admit that this is not working for you and your babies. Best wishes!