2008 Presidential Election

[JRScott]

Whats to think about??? President Bush and his(whats left of his republican congress) have shown over and over what their all about.Handing this country over to corporate America at the expense of all ordinary working class citizens. It`s no surprise that the new BK laws were written by credit card companies for the administration, as well as the secret energy policies written by Cheney and his oil company buddies. We all know what that has gotten us in terms of gas prices!!! Anything thats good for large corporate profits is perfectly fine with Dubya and cronies! There`s investigations going on right now on c-span talking about the manipulation of oil futures markets forcing the upward surge in price per barrel.Do you see Dubya or any of his cronies talking about it!!! Hell no, they won`t even show to any meetings about it!!! As long as there is alot of money to be made by the richest among us, they just turn there heads. They say they are the real patriots of this country, which is all B.S. .They are the ones destroying it from within.Lets not even mention their love of perpetual war to keep the large profits from no bid contracts and cost plus deals gong to their 140 thousand civilian contractors that they have had in Iraq since day one, sucking up all that unlimited tax payer money (that we borrow from China) 12 billion a month. Talk about redistribution of wealth.Who`s gonna pay for it. Us and our grand children, and theirs as well.But they sure will make it tougher for us to get a fresh start.Wake up people!!!! These republicans are hoping you will vote on values ( as though they have any)and against social issues, so they can continue to rape all ordinary citizens financially!!!!!! Thats all they care about. I will vote for whoever is on the democratic ticket if for nothing else just to stop the bleeding from what will surely be seen as the most corrupt administration in UNITED STATES HISTORY!!!!!!! And you should tooo. Quit watching fox news if you want the truth, try Obermann on msnbc. The truth is alot harder too hear, but you will be doing yourself and your children alot better service by paying attention to the ugly facts instead of the administration spin.

The Democrats are as much beholden to big business as the Republicans. Don't be naive in thinking they aren't, we haven't arrived at the present state of affairs in our nation just with the Republicans, it has been a concerted effort on both parties parts for the better part of the last century.

[JRScott]

I totally agree with your basic perspective.
However, to think that a 3rd party can win is naive. A 3rd party candidate CANNOT win, at this time.
The only way that will happen is if we change the way candidates are funded and debates and campaigns are run, by legal mandate.

Until then, (and I hope there comes a day when we as a people DO wake up and change the laws regarding these things so that a 3rd party candidate can be a viable alternative!) it's the same old dilemma:

Which is the lesser of evils that you would rather see elected?
Obama or McCain?

I'll choose Obama because at LEAST he is against the war, or will wind it down. I'll choose Obama because as a Democrat he is more likely to do SOMEthing for the people of this country as opposed to *just* lining the pockets of his rich friends.

But I am not kidding myself. I know that Hilary or Obama would not turn this country around from the head on collision course we are on, to become a 3rd World country. But no one can stop that train. All we can do is slow it down.

Pa sit down and think about it. The Democrat led congress for 2 years has failed to get the troops out of Iraq. They have continued to pour billions into Iraq of money we have to borrow from China. Barrack Obama will not get the troops out within the first year of his presidency, he might the second, and probably do a drawdown starting in the first, but he's not going to get them out in 90 days as he once claimed.

McCain also would not keep the troops there 100 years, he'd be long dead before then. At most he could keep the troops there for another year then leaving a token force as we have in Japan and Germany to this day. That's about all he could do, the political will is just no there.

As much as they like to point fingers at one another, the Democrats and Republicans are both to blame, the Libertarian party will be on the ballot in 48 states. If folks could get out of the D and R cycle they could win. For those interested Bob Barr, the Libertarian party candidate will be on Glenn Beck's program this coming Friday for an hour on CNN Headline News.

[whatamess]

Ralph nader is running again....ROTFLOL!
I was a Ron Paul girl but have no clue what I want to do now. I didnt even agree with paul on many things. I wish I could pick the diffent things I like about each one and build a peoples party, one w/o corporation, union, and special interest funds, and one that served the people w/o picking and choosing some of others and w/o taxing people out the rear for services the dont use or need. (particularly the elderly and childless) In Southern NJ right now the school taxes alone run $4,000-$8,000 a year. How can retirees foot that bill? Its not fair to tax a retired couple the same schol taxes as someone two blocks over with five children. Now they want to tack on universal pre school into the bill for everyone. I get the poor but really, why does anyone else need that? Have kids, pay!!! Good grief!! This is why NJ has a mass Exodus right now. Who can afford this? One of my friends tax bills just came in for $14,000.

Thats my rant....
WAM

[GregS]

Mistaken notions?

A latecomer to this, a bankruptcy forum, I am surprised with a lot of comments regarding the coming general election. Only today has it become a certainty that Obama will his party nominee. While my political leanings have largely been left of center (I did cast my vote for Ronald Reagan and am ambivalently glad I did), it has been the Libertarian and Conservative naysayers who will tell us that the government is evil and needs to be taken off our backs. Excuse me, but YOU are the government in a constitutional republic.

It was the recent legislation enacted giving us bankruptcy laws that the hard line conservatives handed creditors the keys to the kingdom that has led to the increased difficulty for the truly disadvantaged who have no where else to turn but bankruptcy. Without (and many times with) some regulation corporations continually prove predatory. I cite the present housing dilemma, brought on by lack of credit regulation for home buyers. Okay. Go who ahead and blame purchasers for being stupid for getting in over their heads, but there will not be the the degree of opportunity for banks, mortgage companies, and realtors to rape and pillage the way they have any more. I cannot help but think that this board would not be as busy as it is had that not happened.

Beyond the Bush and the conservative and neocon circus that has put us in arguably the worst economic condition since the great depression, the praise I hear for Ron Paul does not compute. What I do know about Libertarian ideas is that it insists that government leave its hands off, rightfully giving plenty of room for constitutional guarantees, but also regulation to protect the general population from predatory business practices. Ahem. In too many cases those practices put us here.

That two parties dominate the landscape is absolutely true. It does not surprise me that mention has been made that room be made for others, as if there are none. There have been and will continue to be others on the ballot (I cast my vote for Nader too. I am soo conflicted). And who can forget the hysterical sideshow that Perot put on. America at its comic best.

The US ranks, I believe to have heard, 43rd in the world in providing quality health care, as determined in part by infant mortality and life expectancy, and number one in cost. Am I wrong with my math? Taiwan, other Southeast Asian, European, and North and South American countries provide quality health care that largely pleases their constituents. Waiting times are almost non-existent in some where even non emergency treatment is necessary. Many Americans travel to those countries for treatment. On a personal note, A cousin of mine had a heart attack and bypass surgery while travelling through Germany. The bill was $6,000. I had a heart attack and the same treatment here in our blessed United States that cost in excess of $70,000. The data is there for anyone who wants to look beyond their own little slice of heaven.

The government exists to protect the population. It gives me pause to be glad that we are going to bankruptcy court instead of jail, which is where corporate amerika would put us if it could. Cain must have been a reactionary. After all, he did ask God if he is his brothers keeper. There are still those out there who demand that we "pull ourselves up by our bootstraps" without regard to circumstance or conscience. Progressive efforts are needed now more than ever.

And finally, just as Obama has found it necessary to distance himself from radical religious ranters, so has Mcain who accepted the endorsement of one John Hagee, famous for his hate speech against ALL Muslims who " are programmed to kill and we can thus never negotiate with any of them." This is not imputed against radicalism but "Islam in general -- those who live by the Koran have a scriptural mandate to kill Christians and Jews." And it gets better. "God caused Hurricane Katrina to wipe out New Orleans because it had a gay pride parade the week before and was filled with sexual sin." "...he has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church. For example, he likes calling it 'The Great W****,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system." Sounds kinda like the pot calling the kettle black (pun intended). It was almost three months after accepting Hagee's endorsement and beginning to heap praise on this nutcase that he finally let it go.

And don't even get me started on Ron Parsley.

[momof5]

Heres my simple stay at home Mom take on the whole issue:

I am registered for NO PARTY.
Democrats/Republicans/ right wing/left wing...so on and so forth. Its all a bunch of mumbo jumbo. I think people get so wrapped up in their "party" ideas that they forget to think for themselves!

I will vote in this coming election but will always wish for a 'real' person to someday run this country. Someone who does understand the common folk. Not someone who says they do and then rest their head at night in their million dollar + home. Someone who cooks dinner and doesnt have a chef. Someone who drives their own car and doesnt have a driver. Someone who knows what its like to not have health insurance for their children. Not someone who thinks they know what its like. Someone who knows what its like to just be a simple regular every day person.


GregS: You mentioned about being thankful to be going to bankruptcy court instead of jail. My Grandfather was just telling me how they used to arrest people right here in America for not paying their debts. Of course credit wasnt so easy to get then either.

[JRScott]

Ralph nader is running again....ROTFLOL!
I was a Ron Paul girl but have no clue what I want to do now. I didnt even agree with paul on many things. I wish I could pick the diffent things I like about each one and build a peoples party, one w/o corporation, union, and special interest funds, and one that served the people w/o picking and choosing some of others and w/o taxing people out the rear for services the dont use or need. (particularly the elderly and childless) In Southern NJ right now the school taxes alone run $4,000-$8,000 a year. How can retirees foot that bill? Its not fair to tax a retired couple the same schol taxes as someone two blocks over with five children. Now they want to tack on universal pre school into the bill for everyone. I get the poor but really, why does anyone else need that? Have kids, pay!!! Good grief!! This is why NJ has a mass Exodus right now. Who can afford this? One of my friends tax bills just came in for $14,000.

Thats my rant....
WAM

If you are a big backer of Ron Paul, I would suggest checking out the Constitution Party Candidate Chuck Baldwin. He was a supporter of Ron Paul's bid. The problem is that the Constitution Party will not have access in all the states and may not in a majority . (A secondary choice might be Bob Barr of the Libertarian party). (Chuck Baldwin will be a write in candidate in many states and not on the ballot....)

[JRScott]

Heres my simple stay at home Mom take on the whole issue:

I am registered for NO PARTY.
Democrats/Republicans/ right wing/left wing...so on and so forth. Its all a bunch of mumbo jumbo. I think people get so wrapped up in their "party" ideas that they forget to think for themselves!

I will vote in this coming election but will always wish for a 'real' person to someday run this country. Someone who does understand the common folk. Not someone who says they do and then rest their head at night in their million dollar + home. Someone who cooks dinner and doesnt have a chef. Someone who drives their own car and doesnt have a driver. Someone who knows what its like to not have health insurance for their children. Not someone who thinks they know what its like. Someone who knows what its like to just be a simple regular every day person.


GregS: You mentioned about being thankful to be going to bankruptcy court instead of jail. My Grandfather was just telling me how they used to arrest people right here in America for not paying their debts. Of course credit wasnt so easy to get then either.

I'm registered as Unaffiliated, I have never been part of any political party. I have voted for people not parties.

[JRScott]

A latecomer to this, a bankruptcy forum, I am surprised with a lot of comments regarding the coming general election. Only today has it become a certainty that Obama will his party nominee. While my political leanings have largely been left of center (I did cast my vote for Ronald Reagan and am ambivalently glad I did), it has been the Libertarian and Conservative naysayers who will tell us that the government is evil and needs to be taken off our backs. Excuse me, but YOU are the government in a constitutional republic.

It was the recent legislation enacted giving us bankruptcy laws that the hard line conservatives handed creditors the keys to the kingdom that has led to the increased difficulty for the truly disadvantaged who have no where else to turn but bankruptcy. Without (and many times with) some regulation corporations continually prove predatory. I cite the present housing dilemma, brought on by lack of credit regulation for home buyers. Okay. Go who ahead and blame purchasers for being stupid for getting in over their heads, but there will not be the the degree of opportunity for banks, mortgage companies, and realtors to rape and pillage the way they have any more. I cannot help but think that this board would not be as busy as it is had that not happened.

Beyond the Bush and the conservative and neocon circus that has put us in arguably the worst economic condition since the great depression, the praise I hear for Ron Paul does not compute. What I do know about Libertarian ideas is that it insists that government leave its hands off, rightfully giving plenty of room for constitutional guarantees, but also regulation to protect the general population from predatory business practices. Ahem. In too many cases those practices put us here.

That two parties dominate the landscape is absolutely true. It does not surprise me that mention has been made that room be made for others, as if there are none. There have been and will continue to be others on the ballot (I cast my vote for Nader too. I am soo conflicted). And who can forget the hysterical sideshow that Perot put on. America at its comic best.

The US ranks, I believe to have heard, 43rd in the world in providing quality health care, as determined in part by infant mortality and life expectancy, and number one in cost. Am I wrong with my math? Taiwan, other Southeast Asian, European, and North and South American countries provide quality health care that largely pleases their constituents. Waiting times are almost non-existent in some where even non emergency treatment is necessary. Many Americans travel to those countries for treatment. On a personal note, A cousin of mine had a heart attack and bypass surgery while travelling through Germany. The bill was $6,000. I had a heart attack and the same treatment here in our blessed United States that cost in excess of $70,000. The data is there for anyone who wants to look beyond their own little slice of heaven.

The government exists to protect the population. It gives me pause to be glad that we are going to bankruptcy court instead of jail, which is where corporate amerika would put us if it could. Cain must have been a reactionary. After all, he did ask God if he is his brothers keeper. There are still those out there who demand that we "pull ourselves up by our bootstraps" without regard to circumstance or conscience. Progressive efforts are needed now more than ever.

And finally, just as Obama has found it necessary to distance himself from radical religious ranters, so has Mcain who accepted the endorsement of one John Hagee, famous for his hate speech against ALL Muslims who " are programmed to kill and we can thus never negotiate with any of them." This is not imputed against radicalism but "Islam in general -- those who live by the Koran have a scriptural mandate to kill Christians and Jews." And it gets better. "God caused Hurricane Katrina to wipe out New Orleans because it had a gay pride parade the week before and was filled with sexual sin." "...he has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church. For example, he likes calling it 'The Great W****,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system." Sounds kinda like the pot calling the kettle black (pun intended). It was almost three months after accepting Hagee's endorsement and beginning to heap praise on this nutcase that he finally let it go.

And don't even get me started on Ron Parsley.

Greg I see a large difference in a church that Obama attended for 20 years and another church endorsing McCain, a church he never attended. I think it is sad that Obama's commitment to his religion is so little that he casts it aside because it is politically inconvenient. It shows a lack of depth of character and an ambition to become President at any cost.

Ideally the government would be protecting us. Sadly they spend so much on unconstitutional programs that the Federal Government cannot afford to properly guard our ports, borders, airspace and waterways. It has also artificially inflated the federal budget. Federal mandated programs which are largely outside the realm of the Constitution (including Social Security, Education, Medicare, A National Health Care system, the EPA, etc) are inefficient. The 50 states are different, their needs are different. You can't have one hodgepodge rule for all 50 the founding fathers understood that. They understood the inefficiency of Central Control. It is sad that especially in the last 60 years our country as moved more to a Federalist system.

Before you compare health costs from countries you have to compare tax rates too. Germany's income tax rate for instance goes from 0% (those in poverty) to 50.5% (basically the high end is for upper middle income families as compared to the United States). As a comparison U. S. Income Taxes range from 10% - 30% on the Federal Level. The German VAT tax is much higher than the US Sales tax as well. So yes while it may appear that they are paying less for health care, they are not. They also have much more limited choices in most cases, you go to the hospital/doctor you are assigned, whereas in the US you can choose your care provider. (I'm not sure about Germany but in Canada, France and Great Britain all of which have national health care systems there is also a long waiting list for what is oftentimes considered critical care in the US).

Ballot access varies from state to state. The Rocky Mountain states such as Utah, Colorado, Idaho etc generally have the most liberal ballot access laws generally allowing a half dozen or more options on the ballot for President. Sadly the Southeastern states are generally the most restrictive with North Carolina taking the lead. So some citizens are given many choices and some are not. (Here in North Carolina we will only have R, D, and L on the ballot, C and G may be write in candidates).

Ron Paul as well as the Constitution and Libertarian parties espouse that many of the woes of our nation is caused by over meddling of the Federal Government in state issues, leading to inefficiency and the deprivation of rights both of citizens and states. The Libertarian party is socially more moderate to liberal than the Constitution party overall (though Barr is more conservative in this area than most Libertarians). Both are extremely fiscally conservative.

I wouldn't just blame conservatives for the bankruptcy laws. A lot of moderates voted for it as well . I tried to push the North Carolina delegations in Congress to impose greater penalties on predatory lenders but so far that has not materialized. Both the lenders and the consumer are to blame for the current housing problems. The lenders should have known the consumer could not afford the house and the consumer should have realized it was eating up to much of his income. (If your house is more than 25%-30% of your income then you are in trouble).

At least you called us a Republic , which is what we really are , we are not a Democracy in the truest sense . The idea of Libertarians and Constitutionalist is that the nation could be more prosperous if the Federal government was not putting its hand into everything. As I said above the 50 states are all very different. What education is needed in one might not be needed in another as they have different requirements based on the industries in their states. The same for health care, what CA needs NC might not, what NC needs KS doesn't need etc. The Federal overagencies create waste because they try to apply the same guide to all the states when it would be more efficient and cost effective to let the states tailor the programs to their needs. The founding fathers saw that, and its why they gave the states all rights not enumerated in the constitution, but in the last 70 years the Federal government has assumed more and more authority not enumerated to it in the Constitution.

[Bandit]

Greg I see a large difference in a church that Obama attended for 20 years and another church endorsing McCain, a church he never attended. I think it is sad that Obama's commitment to his religion is so little that he casts it aside because it is politically inconvenient. It shows a lack of depth of character and an ambition to become President at any cost.

There is a huge difference.

He not only attended but backed that preacher & religion with huge amounts of money on a regular basis. Oba was in a catch22 from the start with all of that religion & race mess.

and if someone will throw it/them(those who backed him) away for power, the ones who he actually knew & was freinds with for 2 TWO decades, he will toss those who vote for him to the garbage can even faster, to keep the power. He had to think about that one with $26,000 a year supporting his preacher & religion, coming out of his pocket.
if he had not left that religion/CHURCH, there is no way oba would win in November as that type of racist remarks was going to continue to surface from the pulpit AND HE KNEW IT. I do give him credit there but it does not change the fact that he will throw the people away to gain power.

The only difference there with mcC religion is he claimed to be this holy conservative/pharisee & that is why those volatile preachers backed him, (he lied to them) but just like anything, they are NOT true friends. Once he gets the peoples vote for power he trashes them.

They both do the same exact thing for the power but were not as closely tied so it would not hurt mcCs reputation the same way.

I realize the choices are worse than ever this election but I do not understand how the public continues to ignore the true character & back them into power with signs & chanting like some demigod. Nasty!

& then Clinton, well, I will always believe she lost it because she is not a male. If the opponents were all female, I am sure she would have been the best liar & won.

[Bandit]

The same for health care, what CA needs NC might not, what NC needs KS doesn't need etc. The Federal overagencies create waste because they try to apply the same guide to all the states when it would be more efficient and cost effective to let the states tailor the programs to their needs. The founding fathers saw that, and its why they gave the states all rights not enumerated in the constitution, but in the last 70 years the Federal government has assumed more and more authority not enumerated to it in the Constitution.

you may be right about that going back 70 years but it really stood out when they mandated punishment for those not wearing a seat belt calling it a health issue & the public keeps falling for that crap.
They really had to buy/blackmale a lot of politicians to get that passed because the individual states did not want that to happen.

Now they are trying to tell us we will all be safer & healthier if we drive with headlights on during the day. It is a joke & sounds to me like someone needs job security.

after all, our recent leader says, the constitution is just a go*da** piece of paper.... that sounds quite 3rd world to me.

[JRScott]

you may be right about that going back 70 years but it really stood out when they mandated punishment for those not wearing a seat belt calling it a health issue & the public keeps falling for that crap.
They really had to buy/blackmale a lot of politicians to get that passed because the individual states did not want that to happen.

Now they are trying to tell us we will all be safer & healthier if we drive with headlights on during the day. It is a joke & sounds to me like someone needs job security.

after all, our recent leader says, the constitution is just a go*da** piece of paper.... that sounds quite 3rd world to me.

Actually longer.

I was thinking of Woodrow Wilson's administration but really federal power began to increase first under Theodore Roosevelt's administration.

There have been numerous acts proposed in recent years to restore the federal government to a closer model to the Constitution. You might check some of them out at downsizedc.org.

[Pizza]

Germany's income tax rate for instance goes from 0% (those in poverty) to 50.5%...

Hey, guess what, if you're in poverty, you have nothing to be taxed.. go figure!

[Bandit]

now after all the bickering & bitterness & trashing each other & people voting for opponents, now cli is supposed to back oba 100% & all the people who hated oba but loved cli are supposed to back oba now just because Hillabeans says so.


sounds like Bush.vs.Kerry

They must really need job security & I know for sure that I am losing my marbles as there is never any consistency from these people

now, if obubba loses to mcKook in November, then obubba will have to be behind mckook & encourage all his followers who hate Mckook to back the Kook
& 2/3 of the world is expecting a Messiah? LOL!


then they wonder why only 1/3 to less than half of the registered voters actually vote in all of these lies.

thank god it is friday *pours a nip of B&B & shrugs shoulders*

[HRx]

I'm looking forward to the debates...I'm expecting to get a great laugh out of McCain. That man is an old fool; I would've liked to see another Republican candidate running instead of "the old man".

[JRScott]

I'm looking forward to the debates...I'm expecting to get a great laugh out of McCain. That man is an old fool; I would've liked to see another Republican candidate running instead of "the old man".

I wish we could have fair debates between all presidential candidates. The 'third party' candidates should be included to give the people real choice. The D and R don't want that because then people would see the system for what it is and they'd shortly be out of power.