Political Discussion

[backtoschool]

Something we agree on.

The problem is really defining "needy". To most liberals "needy" is everyone who will subsequently vote democratic. To most conservatives "needy" is defined as those unable to help themselves. This pool is much smaller than the voting pool.

I certainly agree that there are needs for both long term and short term assistance. The problem arises when the "need" becomes a "right".

This is exactly the problem we are dealing with in the current health care debate. There is no right to health care subsidized by other citizens. Medicaid and charity hospitals provide the care for those truly in need.

As to extending unemployment benefits what is your prescribed length of benefit? Two years? 10 years? I suggest we first fire every illegal alien who holds a job in this country and make those jobs available for needy Americans. I believe the unemployment rate would drop to under 5% if Americans were willing to work the jobs currently held by illegals. Obviously, we would need to address the under-employment rate but at least these people would be working.

I think relying on Medicaid in it's current incarnation, or relying on so-called "charity" hospitals, is not a comprehensive enough social safety net to truly protect all those in need of health care. I do not agree with Obama's plan though. I would like to see health care co-op or pools that are privately owned and run and allow small companies to offer insurance to their employees at a reasonable cost. I would also like to see an expansion of Medicaid to cover those who are unemployed and cannot afford Cobra or do not have access to Cobra.

As for extending unemployment benefits, well that is a tricky problem. Unlimited extensions turns into Welfare, which does not work, and too few extensions puts families at risk of losing their homes and falling into poverty. I am not sure what the middle ground should be. I think in this economy, we should have 2 years or so of benefits, with re-training being part of the package.

Taking people who used to work in factories and having them mow your lawn, or wash your laundry, or pick your grapes for below minimum wage does not sound like a workable solution to unemployment.

[lrprn]

Members, I think we're all clear where everyone on this thread stands politically. Lobbing verbal bombs at each other from the ideology shelter of choice is accomplishing nothing.

I'm seeing insults being flung by several. That needs to stop immediately or we mods will start giving time-outs for breaking forum rules. Agree to disagree and let's move on.

[momisery]

BTS, I too enjoy reading your posts and I like your style. We do agree on a lot of things, so maybe I am partial?? LOL.. Healthcare is a very difficult problem. If the issue were lollipops it would be simple, let the market bear. But with peoples lives it adds to the mix emotions and death. I can foresee no way to make healthcare affordable if you have doctors making 900,000 per year, RN's making 50,000 per year, and the hospitals making even more. Right now there is no real reason to control costs because they can simply pass on the costs. Then add in the middle man the cost of insurance and we have a financial disaster to the median income folks of about 40,000 per year for a family not an individual. While that has worked for a long time, wages have been dropping and with 60+ percent of all BK's being healthcare related it will only get worse. Unemployment is up, which means many more have lost or will lose their coverage. The cycle can not continue. However, when your dealing with a commondity that is a life or death issue there will be some who will pay the price if it means selling their first born or their kidneys to save a loved one. I believe that it will be like the old poem about they came for me and no one stopped them, then they came for.. etc.. I forget how it goes, but I believe it has to do with WWII.

[JRScott]

I think I have been included in your ignore list, but I will put this comment here for the rest of those reading this thread.

Conservatives change their beliefs to fit their needs just as much as liberals do. There is many a conservative that got elected on lowering spending, only to increase the deficit greatly by funding tax cuts and perks for the rich, and wars for the military-industrial complex.

I think it is more the tone of your posts, than the content that is so annoying OF. You seem to always be insulting anyone who does not agree with you. This is a debate, and your view is not the only truth. You make a lot of good points, but they get lost in your condescending, judgmental tone.

The problem with always citing the Constitution, is that the Constitution can be interpreted in various ways. There is no certainty that your interpretation of the Constitution totally meshes with the intent the original writers of the document had hundreds of years ago.

I have stood up for you on this forum on numerous occasions, and I still believe you are a valuable member of this forum. But there are views other than yours that are legitimate views and those views deserve to be heard without insults and contempt in my opinion.

Unfortunately the Courts today often cite Precedent that oftentimes does not interpret the Constitution the way the founders did. It has been a slow perversion of the Constitution over the last century to give greater power to the Federal government than was ever intended. There is plenty of material from the founders and framers of our nation in the Library of Congress for anyone to study if they chose.

I think every US Student should take a year of nothing but studying the writings of the founding fathers and the founding documents in middle school or high school. I believe they would be well served by such instruction.

I also believe we should spend a year teaching about the various depressions/recessions of US history. Particular emphasis on the 1820s, 1830s-1840s, 1870s-1880s, 1890's-1900s, 1930s-1940s, 1970s-1980s and the current one. Only by teaching our young people what caused these hardships and give them a glimpse of the hardships itself caused by irresponsible economic policy can we hope that future generations will avert the same errors. We almost concentrate on the wrong parts of history, this needs to be economic history emphasis.

And every high school student should be required to pass a financial management course for graduation. Something similar to Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University would be great for the students but in more depth. They should come out knowing the dangers of credit cards, importance of maintaining proper financial records for check books and other accounts, etc. If we'd had this sort of instruction many of us perhaps could have avoided bankruptcy.

[DeadManCrawling]

I, too, have enjoyed this discussion, and I do hope won't be closed.

I never intended for the OP to result in inflamed emotions and wish it could be otherwise. However, I do realize the passions involved in such discussions run deep.

I would ask for a sense of civility, and an admission that all nuance can be lost when typing sentences in such a cold medium.

Perhaps we have all learned something, and are continuing to do so.

With that, and general courtesy in mind, I hope the discussion can continue. It is thousands or millions of discussions just like this one that need to take place before we can find answers--and maybe even solutions.

[momisery]

DMC, you are correct. I still believe that if we could shut the talk radio voices up, and resort back to real news where the news is told honestly, not someone tell you what to think we would all be better off. Growing up I was raised on politics and voices did raise from time to time over issues. But people never made things up back then, they told it like it was. Honestly, the last 10-15 yars have grown more and more stressful with all the news hype. I enjoy reading posts from all view points until they move in to the are of not being factual or honest, or resort to name calling. The trigger is always someone who take a broad sweep at liberals or right-wing-nuts and a poster feels attack by that post so they get more personal and so it continues. The person who took the broad sweep can not understand, until a broad sweep is taken at them then they respond the same way. We need to go back to being honest, and to doing some research of our news sources before we start blaming one party of the other. Easy for me to say since I think both parties are on the wrong path.. lol... I have enjoyed your thread, thanks for starting it!

[OhioFiler]

BTS, I too enjoy reading your posts and I like your style. We do agree on a lot of things, so maybe I am partial?? LOL.. Healthcare is a very difficult problem. If the issue were lollipops it would be simple, let the market bear. But with peoples lives it adds to the mix emotions and death. I can foresee no way to make healthcare affordable if you have doctors making 900,000 per year, RN's making 50,000 per year, and the hospitals making even more. Right now there is no real reason to control costs because they can simply pass on the costs. Then add in the middle man the cost of insurance and we have a financial disaster to the median income folks of about 40,000 per year for a family not an individual. While that has worked for a long time, wages have been dropping and with 60+ percent of all BK's being healthcare related it will only get worse. Unemployment is up, which means many more have lost or will lose their coverage. The cycle can not continue. However, when your dealing with a commondity that is a life or death issue there will be some who will pay the price if it means selling their first born or their kidneys to save a loved one. I believe that it will be like the old poem about they came for me and no one stopped them, then they came for.. etc.. I forget how it goes, but I believe it has to do with WWII.

I would like to see the source for this information. Thank you so kindly in advance.

[DeadManCrawling]

Here is one of several sources for the 60% BK being medical related:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/

Fairly reliable source, so I won't add another 50 links to this post. There are plenty of medical BK's. I am one of them.

A sad state of affairs.

[backtoschool]

Unfortunately the Courts today often cite Precedent that oftentimes does not interpret the Constitution the way the founders did. It has been a slow perversion of the Constitution over the last century to give greater power to the Federal government than was ever intended. There is plenty of material from the founders and framers of our nation in the Library of Congress for anyone to study if they chose.

I think every US Student should take a year of nothing but studying the writings of the founding fathers and the founding documents in middle school or high school. I believe they would be well served by such instruction.

I also believe we should spend a year teaching about the various depressions/recessions of US history. Particular emphasis on the 1820s, 1830s-1840s, 1870s-1880s, 1890's-1900s, 1930s-1940s, 1970s-1980s and the current one. Only by teaching our young people what caused these hardships and give them a glimpse of the hardships itself caused by irresponsible economic policy can we hope that future generations will avert the same errors. We almost concentrate on the wrong parts of history, this needs to be economic history emphasis.

And every high school student should be required to pass a financial management course for graduation. Something similar to Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University would be great for the students but in more depth. They should come out knowing the dangers of credit cards, importance of maintaining proper financial records for check books and other accounts, etc. If we'd had this sort of instruction many of us perhaps could have avoided bankruptcy.

I agree with you JRScott about studying the Constitution in depth in school. I would have loved to have more exposure to the Constitution in high school. I took classes as an undergrad that went in depth into court decision and the original documents, but the courses were voluntary.

And a study of past depressions would help people understand why we are struggling now, but I am not sure that a high-school student, with no personal experience handling money or living on their own, would be able to absorb the full import of what was being studied. I think adults should have to study past depressions. Certainly, anyone who has a job at the Fed, or in any of the financial committees in congress should have to take a test on past depressions (like a civil service exam of some sort) and pass it with a decent grade.

[OhioFiler]

Here is one of several sources for the 60% BK being medical related:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/

Fairly reliable source, so I won't add another 50 links to this post. There are plenty of medical BK's. I am one of them.

A sad state of affairs.

That myth has been debunked. Read here: Interesting reading

I understand your bk is medically related but the truth is it is more criminally related than medically related. The problems you've suffered are not the result of any medical condition. I find what was done to you to be deplorable and wish only the best for you.

I can also use bkforum for anecdotal evidence that medical expenses are not the cause of anywhere near 60% of bankruptcies. Look around. Very few posters here mention their medical debts when asking for information.

[OhioFiler]

I agree with you JRScott about studying the Constitution in depth in school. I would have loved to have more exposure to the Constitution in high school. I took classes as an undergrad that went in depth into court decision and the original documents, but the courses were voluntary.

And a study of past depressions would help people understand why we are struggling now, but I am not sure that a high-school student, with no personal experience handling money or living on their own, would be able to absorb the full import of what was being studied. I think adults should have to study past depressions. Certainly, anyone who has a job at the Fed, or in any of the financial committees in congress should have to take a test on past depressions (like a civil service exam of some sort) and pass it with a decent grade.

I would apply this statement to most college students as well. Most live on their parent's dime or student loans. They have yet to face the real world and its economy.

[banca rotta]

I still believe that if we could shut the talk radio voices up, and resort back to real news where the news is told honestly, not someone tell you what to think we would all be better off.

Momisery that would be like me wanting to shut you up! I don't want you to "shut up". I don't agree with you because your programs along with Wall Street are bankrupting the USA. Actually it's already bankrupt it just never filed.

I know which "talk radio" hosts you are referring to and yes most of them are wrong on most issues too. However they have the right to free speech and you have the right to ignore them.

Not that this matters to either of us but I officially lost what little respect I had for you over this one stupid statement.

I have never seen such an issue rip the heart and soul out of America then this healthcare issue.

No one should shut up!

[backtoschool]

I would apply this statement to most college students as well. Most live on their parent's dime or student loans. They have yet to face the real world and its economy.

Well, as my screen name implies, I am in school (although I am now working full time as well), and I can assure you that I am very much facing the "real" world. I think many college students today are getting more exposed to economic realities as their parents struggle to finance their educations and they are forced to make tough choices as to what school they are going to go to, and how to pay for it.

[backtoschool]

That myth has been debunked. Read here: Interesting reading

I understand your bk is medically related but the truth is it is more criminally related than medically related. The problems you've suffered are not the result of any medical condition. I find what was done to you to be deplorable and wish only the best for you.

I can also use bkforum for anecdotal evidence that medical expenses are not the cause of anywhere near 60% of bankruptcies. Look around. Very few posters here mention their medical debts when asking for information.

Of course there is no way of knowing what percentage of people filing bankruptcies, are posting regularly on bkforum. My guess is that it is a statistically insignificant number.

[backtoschool]

I, too, have enjoyed this discussion, and I do hope won't be closed.

I never intended for the OP to result in inflamed emotions and wish it could be otherwise. However, I do realize the passions involved in such discussions run deep.

I would ask for a sense of civility, and an admission that all nuance can be lost when typing sentences in such a cold medium.

Perhaps we have all learned something, and are continuing to do so.

With that, and general courtesy in mind, I hope the discussion can continue. It is thousands or millions of discussions just like this one that need to take place before we can find answers--and maybe even solutions.

I agree with you DMC. We, as a nation need to be discussing these issues so that we can learn from our mistakes and move on.

I have learned a lot from this thread and I too, do not want to see it close.