Political Discussion

[jeb]

Bammys wife is as racist as it gets

Can you say "Hypocrite"? - jb

[newbeginning]

I voted for Obama, frankly, because he seemed to "represent" something remotely idealistic. Worried about what is happening now, certainly, but not much we can do now but PRAY that our sensible politicians take this scary, but best opportunity, imho, to make some painful changes that should have been made decades ago:

1. Health reform: Don't give the industry an option! The health industry will have no choice but to follow new laws. They're not going to leave the USA for some place else. The problem has always been tied to the burdening profits that the industry enjoys at the expense of the taxpayers, citizens. BTW, tax credits are a joke (GOP plan)! Unless these tax credits are going to be huge (further increasing deficit), they will certainly do nothing to stem the increasing cost of health insurance.

2. How ironic. I've said this before, but we are indebted and dependent upon the largest, most repressive COMMUNIST country in the world to keep us afloat. Nothing against the Chinese, they deserve the peak of wealth they are enjoying, but our foreign policy has long been hypocritical and cowardly. Keep the tiny island Cuban Communists down, but as long as MONEY and potential consumer growth continues from the People's Republic, no embargo, no boycott, etc.

3. Financial regulatory reform: Need it. Can't trust the individuals making the decisions to keep our capitalist system honest w/o hurting the common citizen. Once again the MORE BUSINESS FRIENDLY/LESS GOVERNMENT (not true, of course) GOP resist the idea.

4. Read recently that the vast majority of the insane deficit is a result of what Obama is inheriting. Funny we don't hear about that. We don't hear that the GOP insistence on keeping the tax breaks from previous is a good chunk of the deficit bloating.

5. Pork. Obama's fault? BOTH parties abuse this.

Boy, do i have more to share, but won't. I love this country, but have little faith in the citizens in recognizing that WE ARE ALL TO BLAME FOR WHERE WE ARE NOW. Think about it. How many of you jump for joy when someone says "tax cuts." Do you realize that when our politicians buy your vote by promising tax cuts, that someone has to pay for those tax cuts? And in the end, the cuts are not significant enough to make a dent in our overall lives for the most part.

Oh, well. I'm blabbering. Gotta go. I need to figure out how i'm going to spend my share of the tax cuts we're now getting...

[Bandit]

well well well.

here we are 6 months into Bammy while his decisions & choices have clearly not helped as the economy continues to get weaker, fast. you can only blame Bush/dickfaceCheney for so long of whom it is their administration that got us into this mess but now it is obamas job to get it right and he is NOT helping. all I continue to hear from oblabbas fat mouth is, the economy will continue downhill and jobs will continue to be lost. that is obamas idea of 'change'.

FACT: 2.2 million more jobs lost under obama.

Jun 2, 2009 ... More jobs will be lost. More plants will close. More dealerships will shut their doors, and so will many parts suppliers," Obama said, ...

That isn't the same change revival he was preaching in 2008.


congratulations democrats! you got what you voted for which is absolutley not one iota different from what republicans vote for.

and of course here is your gay community pointing out obamas/democrat lies also being stabbed in the back: this is what voters of minority groups get, when they ignore the facts and lies of 20 years of someones dedication in service and money to an extremely racist church and an anti gay and anti america preacher. You should have known when he threw his pastor under the bus at the snap of a finger he would be throwing you under the bus as well! Take that for Change.

[newbeginning]

...as for the huge loss in jobs, the reality is that they would have occurred no matter what or who was the president. The dominoes of job loss was inevitable.

...as for the state of the economy (not regarding job losses), there are signs that things are beginning to get better, however slight. Not much comfort for the millions that have lost jobs, though.

...as per your other points, well, he is a politician....

[Bandit]

...as for the huge loss in jobs, the reality is that they would have occurred no matter what or who was the president. The dominoes of job loss was inevitable.

...as for the state of the economy (not regarding job losses), there are signs that things are beginning to get better, however slight. Not much comfort for the millions that have lost jobs, though.

That is like saying anybody-all persons as president would have went to war after 9-11.

We do not know for sure that your claim that anybody as president would make the economy worse. What we do know is, a democrat is in office and things are not getting better like you claim. Trying to blame anybody is a nice try at deflection from the poor leadership of the lousy republicans and democrats we keep getting every election.

..as for the state of the economy, you cannot even get a part time job at mcdonalds, GM just file BK and in case you have not noticed unemployment rate has not stopped but is higher than it was two months ago. While gas may be down from 4.09 two years ago to 3.09 right now, it is up from 1.70 last year as the price of a bus ticket went up 35%. The last time I checked which was this morning, home prices are still plummeting sending everyone into foreclosure.

Where exactly in the economy are your facts that things are slightly better? What pert things are you talking about? Slightly better than what? Did dunkin donuts sell more donuts than krispy kream, therefore dunkin is slightly better? Are you in reference to a slightly better hair day?

...as per your other points, well, he is a politician..

and a lazy politician, 6 years in the senate doing absolutely nothing yapping his big yapper, getting stupid people to believe his lies, 6 months in the white house doing the same.

as per your other point regarding the economy being better, I would really appreciate you showing some facts and stats and details that things are slightly better this month and I am not talking about the housing inventory in a couple of towns. You must think that because people are going into foreclosure and doing short sales and foreigners are buying up a few homes at half of what americans paid, that means things are slightly better? Your explicit exception of the poor job market in case you dont know, if you cannot have a decent paying job then you cannot buy a house. Flipping has ceased, is that what you mean by slightly better?

[lrprn]

Where exactly in the economy are your facts that things are slightly better? .... as per your other point regarding the economy being better, I would really appreciate you showing some facts and stats and details that things are slightly better this month ...

Here you go, Bandit....your 'economy is improving' facts published a week ago - http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/06/...ession-ending/

Eleven unbiased economic indicators show we aren't out of the woods yet, but things are slowly looking better.

You might consider changing the channel from Fox News every once in a while and get a less biased look at the real world around you. I also encourage everyone watching only MSNBC to do the same.

[Bandit]

Here you go, Bandit....your 'economy is improving' facts published a week ago - http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/06/...ession-ending/

Eleven unbiased economic indicators show we aren't out of the woods yet, but things are slowly looking better.

You might consider changing the channel from Fox News every once in a while and get a less biased look at the real world around you. I also encourage everyone watching only MSNBC to do the same.

first lrprn, I never turn on fox news. I turn it off or change the channel if news comes on that channel.
second, I rarely turn to MSNBC for any kind of news.
I listen to Lou Dobbs, Anderson Cooper and people like them.

I realize you are an obama fan and he is your hero over bush and the republican party, so you might consider your own bias and stations you watch by following your own advice as well.

Only three of those eleven items are valid as far as I am concerned when considering the economy and knowing that the state road that I live on has not been repaved for almost 20 years, those three things aren't saying much to me. Everything else in your information has to do with the stock market and, we all know what can happen with the DOW in just seconds. Just because there is a quarter a little better than last, does not mean it can't fall back into the hole where it was or even lower over night. That mixed bag of lukewarm indicators you gave me does not offer factual proof or convince me that things are improving under oba, but thanks for your opinion.

[lrprn]

...but thanks for your opinion.

And thanks for your opinion too, Bandit. That's the joy of living in a democracy like ours - we have the right to disagree. I doubt if any facts are going to persuade you that things are getting better, but it's good that you get your news from lots of sources. That's what makes informed citizens, and without that, as our founding fathers believed, there is no democracy.

In the General forum on the political discussion, there are no mods or members distinction - just citizens voicing their personal opinions. We both have one - they just don't happen to be the same. No problem - we can just agree to disagree. However, don't expect to post a strong opinion and not get an equally strong opinion that disagrees in return.

It's great to see everyone voicing their personal opinion here - that's exactly what this thread is for. But realize that it's going to be contentious, and also realize that no one here is likely to sway anyone else, no matter what is said. But it is best to share facts whenever possible....even if after sharing the demanded facts, they aren't all what you wanted to see. That doesn't make them any less factual.

[Bandit]

And thanks for your opinion too, Bandit. That's the joy of living in a democracy like ours - we have the right to disagree. I doubt if any facts are going to persuade you that things are getting better, but it's good that you get your news from lots of sources. That's what makes informed citizens, and without that, as our founding fathers believed, there is no democracy.

In the General forum on the political discussion, there are no mods or members distinction - just citizens voicing their personal opinions. We both have one - they just don't happen to be the same. No problem - we can just agree to disagree. However, don't expect to post a strong opinion and not get an equally strong opinion that disagrees in return.

It's great to see everyone voicing their personal opinion here - that's exactly what this thread is for. But realize that it's going to be contentious, and also realize that no one here is likely to sway anyone else, no matter what is said. But it is best to share facts whenever possible....even if after sharing the demanded facts, they aren't all what you wanted to see. That doesn't make them any less factual.

It isn't that I dont want to see them, but you did not prove anything to me that things are factually getting better for americans, while I can consistently prove far more facts proving that it is getting worse since oba took office. Even oba himself has declared that things have gotten worse since he took office and will continue to get worse. At least he is being more honest than you are right now.

You gave me your opinion that things are getting better linked to a lukewarm page about stock & the DOW, while assuming I only watch a biased station for news. I presented plenty of facts that things are NOT improving of which you should address those facts and based on your own criteria does not make the economy getting worse any less factual by you ignoring those facts because you dont want to see them.

More importantly, I think it is even better to understand why you would say that things are getting better & I cant help but believe you are being persuaded just because democrats are in office? Maybe? I do recall you were totally set against bush policies and so was/am I, even when bush/cheney also declared things were getting better and they weren't, and somehow seem to think that democrats policy is somehow different?

I am also convinced that people dont like to be swayed unless it is coming from a lying politician, then the lies are believed. Quite bizzarre to me. You can believe the economy is getting better, fine by me, but until it really is and people are going back to work, we will continue to disagree.

As for democracy, there is no democracy today. Lots of assorted opinons that create edges but not democracy. Agreeing and disagreeing does not make a democracy. Oba is not listening to the people any more than bush did. In those personal opinons it is a great thing though, because it reveals what and how we want to get invovled or not get inovolved at all -and that is the greatest thing about opinons. This country has not been run by the citizens in a democracy since the IRS and SS was created.

Do you have anything else that would prove that the econoomy is getting better? For example how does GM going down a couple of weeks ago, people losing their retirement and insurance make things better? If that was you, would you say things are better now for you and your family?

[newbeginning]

hey bandit,

i understand your frustration. i'm with you, believe it or not and am very concerned about the state of the union. but, one thing is for certain, we are talking about and pushing towards reforms that MUST be brought out into the open. we are in this mess because we, the people, have allowed our politicians to buy our votes and laxity through the enticements of short-term returns. we are all paying the piper now because of what our politicians, both on the right and the left, have long neglected.

the economy has worsened and millions have lost jobs, but seriously, do you really blame all of these job losses to Obama??? he has had little or nothing to do with the FACT that you and I are not spending our money to buy the products that these companies need to sell to maintain job levels, etc. Many peoples investments have everything to do with the financial crisis that began and peeked during Obama's first 6-months. I find it hard to believe that anyone to "reasonably" blame even most of what has happened to Obama in the first 6-months of his administration. If you are inclined to blame, let's try to look at the things that he had real control over...

...and yes, for those who have lost their jobs, it is very difficult to convince them that the economy is getting better. The hope and prayer is that their plight will be short-lived or that they find new ways to reinvent themselves so that they are more marketable.

...a simple question, though, would things be better if Obama hadn't made the decisions that has? no one knows for certain, but maintaining the status quo is no longer a safe and viable track to continue on. it may not be Obama, but WE need to make some serious life-style changes to get us from the precipice of total disaster.

anyway, just having a discussion....no attempt to offend.

[lrprn]

It isn't that I dont want to see them, but you did not prove anything to me that things are factually getting better for americans, while I can consistently prove far more facts proving that it is getting worse since oba took office.

What you asked for was evidence the economy is improving. I supplied that. You don't like what I supplied. Okay - that's your privilege.

It seems to me that you are blaming Obama and Obama only for the current poor economy, and you think it's my loyalty to him that makes me think the way I do. Actually, you're mistaken about that.

Personally I think is that no matter who won last November, after decades of over-spending, under-taxing, and two wars that were not budgeted for whose true costs were hidden outside the federal budget and required the US to borrow billions and billions of dollars from multiple foreign nations to wage, nothing and no one can turn this economy around completely in six months.

What I see are small consistent national (not necessarily regional or local) trends that some financial measures are starting to improve. These same measures have been used to measure financial stability in the US for as long as I can remember no matter which party was in power, so for me it's not related to Obama or the Democrats being in power now. It's just the facts to me, facts that are being echoed by many far more expert than either one of us about economies on a national scale.

I presented plenty of facts that things are NOT improving of which you should address those facts and based on your own criteria does not make the economy getting worse any less factual by you ignoring those facts because you dont want to see them.

Trust me, I know things aren't great across most of our country. I see horrible, sad stories here in the forums every single day and also read them online and in the newspapers. I just have more optimism that the financial measures put into place so far combined with our peoples' strength as a national comumunity can turn things around than you do.

...how does GM going down a couple of weeks ago, people losing their retirement and insurance make things better? If that was you, would you say things are better now for you and your family?

In case you missed it, our poorer citizens have been losing jobs, retirement, health insurance, work benefits, and many other things long before five months ago when Obama came into office, and long before he won the election last November. That trend started many years ago.

It was only after powerful, large US financial and banking companies got too greedy over the last ten years and crashed our economy last October and then that crash began to impact middle-class and weathy people in large numbers that suddenly now it's a CRISIS that needs to be solved IMMEDIATELY. Well, it can't be solved immediately, period, no matter whether the Democrats, the Republicans, the Libertarians, or any other US political party are in office. To think otherwise is to not understand how slowly economies correct themselves after a severe crash like we've just experienced.

No matter which economic and financial expert is asked, they all agree on one thing - it's going to take at least another 6 mos to a year to turn the corner economically and see the kinds of evidence you seem to want to see right now. We didn't get here overnight, and we won't get out of here overnight either. To think these complex problems can be reversed significantly in six months by anyone is just not realistic.

Now....your turn

[Bandit]

What you asked for was evidence the economy is improving. I supplied that. You don't like what I supplied. Okay - that's your privilege.

It isn't that I dont like it, you did not supply facts that it is improving. I told you that 8 of those are off the table for trusting as factual improvements. You should know the stock market cannot be trusted at the moment and why you would even suggest that and keep suggesting it is beyond me. If you would like to discuss the other three, fine.

No matter which economic and financial expert is asked, they all agree on one thing - it's going to take at least another 6 mos to a year to turn the corner economically and see the kinds of evidence you seem to want to see right now. We didn't get here overnight, and we won't get out of here overnight either. To think these complex problems can be reversed significantly in six months by anyone is just not realistic.

6 months? LOL! the CNN poll tonight showed 55% agree it will take 5 years just to get it back to where it was prior to the recession, then we can see improvements. The problems aren't getting reversed to begin with, they are getting worse under the obama admin.

[Bandit]

hey bandit,

the economy has worsened and millions have lost jobs, but seriously, do you really blame all of these job losses to Obama???

anyway, just having a discussion....no attempt to offend.

Yes.

well, at least you do admit finally that the economy is worse off even than what it was even just 30 days ago. I dont know many people who cant see & understand that. Obama belongs to a system that I reject. It is called the republican democratic one party system. He supports and backs a crooked system of government that has allowed all of this to happen. You had better bet he will be held accountable for what happens during his stay and that includes the first 6 months, not just the portions and times you might want. In short, I certainly wont be blaming bush or clinton for what happens during his term. That is more of what the reps & dems do by blaming the president before for everything. So the answer is, for the 2 million lost jobs in the last 6 months of his term, Obamas little plan of creating 600,000 lousy paying jobs is not going to help.

[Bandit]

what we really need right now is another Reagan. Though I know that Reagonomics only work for jump starting an economy and fail in the long term for keeping it strong, and I know how bad republican agendas suck, it is what needs to happen again to juice up the dead battery. Unfortunately, we dont have the means right now that we did then to make it happen because all the jobs that could have been charged up have been given to China, which was all part of Reaganomics, showing how it failed in the long term.

It is pretty sad when americans come out of college and need to hide their degree in order to get a job because they will be lucky to get a job delivering pizza, thus they wont be viewed as over qualified and rejected. So much for college when times get real hard but you can't blame companies for not wanting to hire them because they know they are a bad choice to hire.

Well, it can't be solved immediately, period, no matter whether the Democrats, the Republicans, the Libertarians, or any other US political party are in office. To think otherwise is to not understand how slowly economies correct themselves after a severe crash like we've just experienced.

and reagan was able to turn it around, pretty much immediately.

[Bandit]

In case you missed it, our poorer citizens have been losing jobs, retirement, health insurance, work benefits, and many other things long before five months ago when Obama came into office, and long before he won the election last November. That trend started many years ago.

I did not miss it at all. In case you missed it, his pre election promises have quickly disappeared from his site kind of like the same thing he did as a senator when he could not even vote on the issues. if he cant vote on them then he cant fix them. Wimpy man when you cant even acces his public records from his executive order. That really helps create jobs.

You keep passing the buck to the past. Sorry, as much as you would like to dismiss Obamas failures and lies the first 6 months as if someone else is in the white house right now, but he is a chicken doing absolutley nothing but singing and dancing around the problems and he is doing nothing to resolve the crisis.

I think the trend you are speaking of is the republican/democratic party trend and that is the trend you voted for. So you pass the buck on the past leaders as if Obama is not even exisiting in policy, then vote on the same exact system in the present you are claiming is at fault.