Leadership Missing, incompetence at hand

[frogger]

Your correct Shark66, I wouldn't put myself in any of those groups. Capitalism can be good -- unbridled Capitalism is bad. I try to look at things from a macro view. This country has some serious systemic problems that most people are not smart enough to see. The concentration of wealth in so few is bad for society. WalMart is bad for society -- they pay over 90% of their employees below poverty income, make huge profits - 15 billion after taxes last year - which gets send to a handful of people in Arkansas. All the while suppressing wages for everyone who is trying to compete with them. I don't object to someone working hard and getting ahead -- even far ahead. However, there has to be limits. There needs to be some seriously progressive tax reform i.e. an even higher marginal rate at incomes over $1 million, 10 million etc. including capital gains. Likewise, on estate tax there should be a generous exemption say 5-10 million but then progress serious after that starting at 50% on 100 million going up to 90% on a billion. Instead all we hear is the Republican talking points that we need to lower taxes on the "job creators" and cut out the EPA etc. and sadly they are able to convince a number of people of the wisdom of such moves. And, unfortunately there are too many from both parties that are bought and paid for. So to your line "good luck to us all" I would add what we need is a miracle.

Oh come on and don't be so hard on Walmart. After all, they are providing employment for those poor folks, giving most of them anywhere from 4 - 16 hours per week. Win-Win for WallyWorld, pushing more below poverty.

Walmart has chosen their path, and it is the path to the destruction of America. If they would spend their time as hard to source in America as they did to source from China, they could turn America around by themselves.......

[jjim120]

Absolutely, frogger. Much of what Walmart does is hidden from the public. It's not just the low wages, and it's not just the many small manufacturers that they have screwed over by taking their proprietary products to China and other countries for cheaper production. The entire company is built on defrauding everyone they deal with (unless they are relatives). The multiple companies that surround the base WalMart operation are masters at contract schemes to avoid paying their bills, such as delaying the last 10% payment for months, then offering a small percentage of that at the courthouse steps to the company that did the work or threaten many years of delay and piled-on legal fees by both sides' lawyers if they don't accept. The lack of ethics and integrity toward the firms that contract with them is unbelievable.

[msm859]

Absolutely, frogger. Much of what Walmart does is hidden from the public. It's not just the low wages, and it's not just the many small manufacturers that they have screwed over by taking their proprietary products to China and other countries for cheaper production. The entire company is built on defrauding everyone they deal with (unless they are relatives). The multiple companies that surround the base WalMart operation are masters at contract schemes to avoid paying their bills, such as delaying the last 10% payment for months, then offering a small percentage of that at the courthouse steps to the company that did the work or threaten many years of delay and piled-on legal fees by both sides' lawyers if they don't accept. The lack of ethics and integrity toward the firms that contract with them is unbelievable.

Wow, I thought they were bad without even knowing any of that. This is why we need to raise the minimum wage on large corporations to try to help level the playing field.

http://signon.org/sign/raise-the-minimum-wage

This is also why we need a progressively higher estate tax. It absolutely amazes me that they are able to convince so many people that we should do away with the estate tax despite it never affecting 98%+ of them. We should all remember the game of Monopoly -- it is no fun any more once one person owns everything.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Wow, I thought they were bad without even knowing any of that. This is why we need to raise the minimum wage on large corporations to try to help level the playing field. Sounds like Hope and Change. When this happens everyone suffers.

http://signon.org/sign/raise-the-minimum-wage

This is also why we need a progressively higher estate tax. Double tax is wrong, plain and simple. It absolutely amazes me that they are able to convince so many people that we should do away with the estate tax despite it never affecting 98%+ of them. To be fair, either all people should pay the same percentage or no one should pay it. We should all remember the game of Monopoly -- it is no fun any more once one person owns everything. The whole point of the game is, there are winners and losers. Be a winner. It is not wrong to become rich as long as hard work and legal actions make this so. Becoming rich should not be penalized by a higher tax than those who pay less percentage, or those who live off of our charity of food stamps and welfare.

What we are witnessing, those who are actually watching, is truly a "fundamental" change in our Country. I see some being sold a bill of goods that Socialism is good, Capitalism (equaling hard work) is bad. This happened before. Think "National Socialism". Those mass graves and firing squads can easily be put into place. Google "FEMA camps".

[msm859]

[/COLOR]

What we are witnessing, those who are actually watching, is truly a "fundamental" change in our Country. I see some being sold a bill of goods that Socialism is good, Capitalism (equaling hard work) is bad. This happened before. Think "National Socialism". Those mass graves and firing squads can easily be put into place. Google "FEMA camps".

Nothing I proposed is "socialism". Minimum wages is Not socialism - it is a moral issue that separates us from those who believe in slavery. Estate tax is Not double taxation - that is a lie. When my uncle buys $10k of Apple stock in 1990 and dies in 2010 leaving it to me I get the stepped up basis of the current value of $10 million. I then sell it and just made $10 million Tax Free! My uncle and no one pays tax on that $9,990,000 profit -- that is Not double taxation. Almost all taxes subject to the estate tax are the result of appreciation of assets. And what is sacrosanct about "inheritance" tax. How about we do away with "income" tax and only tax "inheritance". That would get rid of the (false) claim of double taxation and is arguably more fair as well as promoting spending which would stimulate the economy. It is Not fair for everyone to pay the "same" percentage of tax. That is a simplistic proposal to a complex problem. The rich get far more benefits from the government than the poor. The rich have a stable environment that allows them to make all that money. They have airports and interstates that allow them to travel and move goods. They have a military that protects their interests around the world. The poor don't care about airports - they don's use them. They aren't worried about terrorist attacking their interest around the world - they have none. They are only trying to make it through another month.
The fundamental change in this country is the Exact opposite of what you say. It is not a push for socialism, it is the unregulated capitalism being consumed by greed that has given us a country with the most unbalanced concentration of wealth of any western civilized country. Despite increased productivity in the last 30 years the middle class has seen their wages stagnate while all the growth in income has gone to the top few percent. From 2001 to 2007 is the only growth period in our history where the percentage living in poverty Increased!
The point of the "game" is to be the best country in the world. By virtually every measure we are losing - life expectancy, percentage in poverty - kids in poverty, health care, income disparity, wealth disparity. It is Not good for society for the top 400 families to have more wealth than the bottom 150 million combined. If the fundamental change was as you say we would not have a WalMart that made 15 billion in profit (going to a select few)last year - after taxes that pays over 90% of its employees below poverty level wages. For a so called "Christian" country this is unconscionable.

[IamOld]

Right - Nazi'ism - "national socialism" is NOT socialism anyway. Before Hitler started exterminating Jews, you know who he started with? TRADE UNIONISTS, WORKERS, communists, socialists, and those Catholic politicians opposed to his regime...then he moved on...

Social democracy is, Germany, France, dare I even say Canada.

[jacko]

Words have lost meaning and value. Take the words 'The Messiah' and Obumner or so to identify the current POTUS. Those two words is basically calling POTUS a nigger! These Caucasian folks in the 50 plus category beat around the bush and can't admit that a person of color should never be elected POTUS. They blame their financial hardship on him and that their version of America has changed. Before being POTUS, his family lived with in their means, paid off their student loans and didn't use their home as a ATM to finance a unsustainable life style. He has acted like a German consumer.

Right - Nazi'ism - "national socialism" is NOT socialism anyway. Before Hitler started exterminating Jews, you know who he started with? TRADE UNIONISTS, WORKERS, communists, socialists, and those Catholic politicians opposed to his regime...then he moved on...

Social democracy is, Germany, France, dare I even say Canada.

[JackBondLove]

Wow, I thought they were bad without even knowing any of that. This is why we need to raise the minimum wage on large corporations to try to help level the playing field.

http://signon.org/sign/raise-the-minimum-wage

This is also why we need a progressively higher estate tax. It absolutely amazes me that they are able to convince so many people that we should do away with the estate tax despite it never affecting 98%+ of them. We should all remember the game of Monopoly -- it is no fun any more once one person owns everything.

I don't think the issue is a higher minimum wage - although for a lot of jobs that absolutely require humans to be in the USA, it could help. However something tells me that as soon as even Wal-Mart "associate" wages are raised, the Mighty Wurlitzer will get cranking, saying how we need to set up a new H visa program to import folks to work at Wal-Mart since obviously there are not enough Americans who are qualified to work there ...

As for the estate tax, there is a way to change it - START VOTING FOR THE PARTY THAT WANTS TO RAISE IT!

[IamOld]

Jackbond is right re Visa program I think - but the min wage had always helped to push up wage levels in general...$7 and change per hour (unless your state has a higher wage) isn't enough to die on.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Nothing I proposed is "socialism". Minimum wages is Not socialism - it is a moral issue that separates us from those who believe in slavery. Estate tax is Not double taxation - that is a lie. When my uncle buys $10k of Apple stock in 1990 and dies in 2010 leaving it to me I get the stepped up basis of the current value of $10 million. I then sell it and just made $10 million Tax Free! My uncle and no one pays tax on that $9,990,000 profit -- that is Not double taxation. Almost all taxes subject to the estate tax are the result of appreciation of assets. And what is sacrosanct about "inheritance" tax. How about we do away with "income" tax and only tax "inheritance". That would get rid of the (false) claim of double taxation and is arguably more fair as well as promoting spending which would stimulate the economy. It is Not fair for everyone to pay the "same" percentage of tax. That is a simplistic proposal to a complex problem. The rich get far more benefits from the government than the poor. The rich have a stable environment that allows them to make all that money. They have airports and interstates that allow them to travel and move goods. They have a military that protects their interests around the world. The poor don't care about airports - they don's use them. They aren't worried about terrorist attacking their interest around the world - they have none. They are only trying to make it through another month.
The fundamental change in this country is the Exact opposite of what you say. It is not a push for socialism, it is the unregulated capitalism being consumed by greed that has given us a country with the most unbalanced concentration of wealth of any western civilized country. Despite increased productivity in the last 30 years the middle class has seen their wages stagnate while all the growth in income has gone to the top few percent. From 2001 to 2007 is the only growth period in our history where the percentage living in poverty Increased!
The point of the "game" is to be the best country in the world. By virtually every measure we are losing - life expectancy, percentage in poverty - kids in poverty, health care, income disparity, wealth disparity. It is Not good for society for the top 400 families to have more wealth than the bottom 150 million combined. If the fundamental change was as you say we would not have a WalMart that made 15 billion in profit (going to a select few)last year - after taxes that pays over 90% of its employees below poverty level wages. For a so called "Christian" country this is unconscionable.

Right - Nazi'ism - "national socialism" is NOT socialism anyway. Before Hitler started exterminating Jews, you know who he started with? TRADE UNIONISTS, WORKERS, communists, socialists, and those Catholic politicians opposed to his regime...then he moved on...

Social democracy is, Germany, France, dare I even say Canada.

Re-examine your theorem on Socialism. What we are heading for, and what you are asking for, to "level the playing area" is to make me as equal as all the other poor people. There is just one difference I made myself poor out of the wrong decisions of my own. I work and still do. My retirement lost due to my mistakes and no others fault. Those you call poor, chose to be, and suck at the Government teat. They only need to vote to get free stuff. Free? Hell no, my taxes pay for them to be poor. Section 8 housing, food stamps, fuel assistance, child care, all "free". Well I own a paid for car, I can't get food stamps. I pick up cans on the highway if I'm that broke. And yes before my SS comes in, I am that broke. Because I have SS I also can't get aid that the "POOR" get. What is YOUR description of poor. The average "POOR" person in this country has a roof over head, food, color TV, air conditioning, and government security. Here is a poor person: Obama's brother in Kenya who to date has not gotten a red cent from brother 'Bammy. His mean income is less than a dollar a month. We are NOT a poor nation, but we will be soon. The "earned income credit" is for a person who does not earn, nor does he pay taxes. He simply puts a 1040EZ into the system.

If I purchase an item for my business, and paid for it sales tax and all, I do not wish to pay for it again if the price goes up (inflation). Personal Property Tax, and death taxes as well as a good investment all have been made with after tax money and should not be taxed again. The tax should be at the source of spending. Who does NOT pay taxes? Drug dealers, prostitutes, food stamp abusers, thieves. But, all of them do eat. On the whole we are getting far less tax than we could. YOU wish it to come from the so called RICH as a penalty for their hard work, and good ideas. Kill that Oil company, kill that banker, kill that rich guy who buys boats and planes and toys. Why shouldn't government give me all that stuff too? OR, take it away from that rich guy who does not watch football and soap operas all day but lives on his job. Tax that bastard more, I'll just enjoy my easy life setting on this bench and popping another beer.

You are NOT going to get a job from a poor guy are you? Taxes as in Sherwood Forest, is legal theft. Paying a fair share means fair to everybody. Best way is a national sales tax of 10% across the board. If I'm rich, and you are poor, and we both pay 10% of what we buy, I still will pay more tax than you, but at least, you will pay your fair share as I have, 10%.

It does not mean that I disagree with you on your righteous ideas, but to mark a class of people against another class of people is the trap politicians have set for us years ago.

You have fallen for it. I hope the oil companies get richer. It would make our economy grow as in the good old 'trickle down' scenario. More profit for oil, yes and cheaper oil, and the money stays right here in the U.S.A. The oil companies do NOT keep their profit in a box. They further invest it in P E O P L E. as in development, inventions, and investments of other kinds.

OK, rant is over, it was fast and sloppy but you get my side anyway. We are still friends. 'Hub

[IamOld]

I hear you CatHub, believe me - but - the reality is that the wealthy are NOT job creators, despite the newest PR spin from K Street. YOU and I are the job creators - if there is no DEMAND for goods and services, there no revenue being generated - if there is no demand for a good or service it has no value. (Never mind the fact that rich INDIVIDUALS do not hire people - organizations do - MR. Buffet may own GEICO etc., but hiring managers hire people) So if WE don't have the ability to buy "stuff" there are no jobs to be created. (Hence Henry FOrd deciding to pay his workers the then whopping wage of $5/day!!)

PLUS - without LABOR there is no wealth - wealth isn't created BUT out of the labor of individuals. I - and Buffet - see nothing wrong, for example, with raising the tax paid by hedge fund billionaires to the same level that you and I pay. Why should these people who make NOTHING- NOTHING of value, not pay tax? Or for that matter, why shouldn't corporate jets be depreciated at the same rate as any other business equipment? Obama's proposals are about as radical as Nixon or Eisenhowever - and I dare say that BOTH Nixon (and FOrd) AND Eisenhowever were to the LEFT of OBama regarding domestic social and economic policy.

Many of the rich do not get rich by hard work - they inherit it from great great grandaddy...what has Paris HIlton done??

THe fact is that in the US the top 1% own around 40-50% of all wealth. THe rest...is for the rest of us.

Oh - re the flat tax (10% say) - the problem is for someone making say $40,000 per year, their PIE is much smaller - if I'm making $4MILLION per year, yes, I pay larger amount, but my PIE is a LOT LARGER to begin with, and I have SUBSTANTIALLY more left than the person paying the "same" percentage making less that me. When we have a small pie, any amount out of it hurts a lot more than when we have a HUGE pie!

[JackBondLove]

What we are witnessing, those who are actually watching, is truly a "fundamental" change in our Country. I see some being sold a bill of goods that Socialism is good, Capitalism (equaling hard work) is bad. This happened before. Think "National Socialism". Those mass graves and firing squads can easily be put into place. Google "FEMA camps".

Let me get this straight - a turn to socialism is a turn to fascism?

'Hub, did you study World History? The socialist USSR was the arch enemy of Fascist Germany! Fascism is basically crony capitalism where the capitalists have firm control and the laborers are made to serve the state. (Does THAT sound familiar?)

And capitalism and hard work are not one in the same. During a time when labor has pricing power, laborers have the ability to save their wages and build capital, thereby becoming capitalists (much like I socked money in my 401K when I was employable - money that my creditors could not get .) However, when the capitalists have the upper hand, labor has no pricing power, so laborers stay desperately poor.

Look, I have had no problem with capitalism as practiced between WW II and the year 2000. Because the American laborer had pricing power, he got a good part of fruits of the capitalist system (although the capitalists had been gaining steadily ever since 1980.) But now, with hyper-efficient workplaces and the ability to draw upon a dirt poor world for labor, the American laborer has lost all his power. This is the reason why I am a Marxist.

[IamOld]

And Jackbond, I would even argue that the USSR wasn't really socialism but state capitalism.

I would say Western Europe - especially Germany, France, Scandinavia, have come the closest.

[msm859]

Re-examine your theorem on Socialism. What we are heading for, and what you are asking for, to "level the playing area" is to make me as equal as all the other poor people. There is just one difference I made myself poor out of the wrong decisions of my own. I work and still do. My retirement lost due to my mistakes and no others fault. Those you call poor, chose to be, and suck at the Government teat. They only need to vote to get free stuff. Free? Hell no, my taxes pay for them to be poor. Section 8 housing, food stamps, fuel assistance, child care, all "free". Well I own a paid for car, I can't get food stamps. I pick up cans on the highway if I'm that broke. And yes before my SS comes in, I am that broke. Because I have SS I also can't get aid that the "POOR" get. What is YOUR description of poor. The average "POOR" person in this country has a roof over head, food, color TV, air conditioning, and government security. Here is a poor person: Obama's brother in Kenya who to date has not gotten a red cent from brother 'Bammy. His mean income is less than a dollar a month. We are NOT a poor nation, but we will be soon. The "earned income credit" is for a person who does not earn, nor does he pay taxes. He simply puts a 1040EZ into the system.

If I purchase an item for my business, and paid for it sales tax and all, I do not wish to pay for it again if the price goes up (inflation). Personal Property Tax, and death taxes as well as a good investment all have been made with after tax money and should not be taxed again. The tax should be at the source of spending. Who does NOT pay taxes? Drug dealers, prostitutes, food stamp abusers, thieves. But, all of them do eat. On the whole we are getting far less tax than we could. YOU wish it to come from the so called RICH as a penalty for their hard work, and good ideas. Kill that Oil company, kill that banker, kill that rich guy who buys boats and planes and toys. Why shouldn't government give me all that stuff too? OR, take it away from that rich guy who does not watch football and soap operas all day but lives on his job. Tax that bastard more, I'll just enjoy my easy life setting on this bench and popping another beer.

You are NOT going to get a job from a poor guy are you? Taxes as in Sherwood Forest, is legal theft. Paying a fair share means fair to everybody. Best way is a national sales tax of 10% across the board. If I'm rich, and you are poor, and we both pay 10% of what we buy, I still will pay more tax than you, but at least, you will pay your fair share as I have, 10%.

It does not mean that I disagree with you on your righteous ideas, but to mark a class of people against another class of people is the trap politicians have set for us years ago.

You have fallen for it. I hope the oil companies get richer. It would make our economy grow as in the good old 'trickle down' scenario. More profit for oil, yes and cheaper oil, and the money stays right here in the U.S.A. The oil companies do NOT keep their profit in a box. They further invest it in P E O P L E. as in development, inventions, and investments of other kinds.

OK, rant is over, it was fast and sloppy but you get my side anyway. We are still friends. 'Hub

The only playing field I want to level is for small businesses. WalMart is the one putting them out of business. If WalMart had to pay a higher minimum wage that would help level the playing field and minimize the suppression WalMart has on all competitors wages were they are. Nothing I have said promotes welfare. If you are on welfare you should also be on Norplant. We should make all contraceptives, vasectomies and tubal ligations free. Welfare is the "scapegoat" it is NOT the real problem. It is a way for the corporate warlords to distract people. Blame them or illegal immigrants for their plight, not the fact that all of the wealth and income is being sucked up by the top few. I graduated in 1981 with a BS in economics and it was interesting at the time to be debating supply side economics, the Laffer Curve and listening to David Stockman. It is no longer a theory -- it does NOT work. Although the premise had some logic at very high marginal rates, it no longer has any value at the rates we are dealing with. We had the perfect A/B test - tax rates under Clinton and tax rates under Bush. "Trickle down" is a fantasy being sold on people like so many weight loss schemes - doesn't work. Even David Stockman now admits it does not work. Given your description of your situation I do not comprehend how you can support the current Republican talking points. Anyone who makes under 250K is voting against their self economic interests when they accept said points. Oil companies getting richer will not trickle down in Any measurable way. Oil companies should be paying much higher taxes because they are the real reason we have all of these wars in the middle east and have been over there the last 60+ years. You talk about everyone paying a "fair share" on taxes but argue against everyone receiving a "fair share" of the profits of a corporation. It use to be the CEO would make 30 -50 x's the average salary of the worker for the company. Now the CEO makes 500 x's+ How much is too much??? For those who complain that 50% of the people pay no taxes (which is of course a lie because they pay a lot of other type of taxes - what they mean is no "income" tax) everyone should complain -- the solution is to raise their income so that they are making a livable wage and can afford to pay income tax. I have not "fallen" for anything. The writing is on the wall as to were this country is heading. I will do fine - I live in a neighborhood were many would "logically" agree with you. It is my children and grandchildren who I worry about. When we have people cheering at Perry's record of executions, and at the idea that uninsured should be left to die and torture is okay we have become morally deprived. When people think the right direction is a system that increases wealth disparity and all income growth to be received by a select few and at the same time increases poverty we have a problem. I am not marking one class against another- it is the insatiable greed of a few who are going to eventually bring us our own French Revolution.

[msm859]

I hear you CatHub, believe me - but - the reality is that the wealthy are NOT job creators, despite the newest PR spin from K Street. YOU and I are the job creators - if there is no DEMAND for goods and services, there no revenue being generated - if there is no demand for a good or service it has no value. (Never mind the fact that rich INDIVIDUALS do not hire people - organizations do - MR. Buffet may own GEICO etc., but hiring managers hire people) So if WE don't have the ability to buy "stuff" there are no jobs to be created. (Hence Henry FOrd deciding to pay his workers the then whopping wage of $5/day!!)

PLUS - without LABOR there is no wealth - wealth isn't created BUT out of the labor of individuals. I - and Buffet - see nothing wrong, for example, with raising the tax paid by hedge fund billionaires to the same level that you and I pay. Why should these people who make NOTHING- NOTHING of value, not pay tax? Or for that matter, why shouldn't corporate jets be depreciated at the same rate as any other business equipment? Obama's proposals are about as radical as Nixon or Eisenhowever - and I dare say that BOTH Nixon (and FOrd) AND Eisenhowever were to the LEFT of OBama regarding domestic social and economic policy.

Many of the rich do not get rich by hard work - they inherit it from great great grandaddy...what has Paris HIlton done??

THe fact is that in the US the top 1% own around 40-50% of all wealth. THe rest...is for the rest of us.

Oh - re the flat tax (10% say) - the problem is for someone making say $40,000 per year, their PIE is much smaller - if I'm making $4MILLION per year, yes, I pay larger amount, but my PIE is a LOT LARGER to begin with, and I have SUBSTANTIALLY more left than the person paying the "same" percentage making less that me. When we have a small pie, any amount out of it hurts a lot more than when we have a HUGE pie!

Agree completely. Every time I hear someone say we can't raise taxes on the "job creators" I want to bang my head on a wall. The "rich" are not hiring because there is NO one to buy the goods and services they want to sell because the "buyers" aka middle class aka "real job creators" do not have any money because they have either lost their job or their wages have not gone up in 30 years and they have no equity in their house - their only real asset. America grew so strong after WWII because we had a strong and growing middle class that was becoming more educated with a greater "purchasing" power. Now achieving a higher education is harder and coupled with more debt, and decent paying jobs are decreasing with states making a rush to the bottom to support minimum wages, and companies like WalMart sucking money out of the system, Wall Street speculation on oil sucking money out of everyone's pocket etc.
Apple and others are lobbying congress for a tax holiday to bring their billions back in the country without paying taxes. I would say fine. You can bring as much as you want and we will give you a 100% tax credit for every dollar you spend building a new manufacturing plant in the US.