Leadership Missing, incompetence at hand

[shark66]

ACtually FDR DID pull the US out of the Depression...here is what happened. 1933 - 25% unemployment - down to under 14% by 1937. (snip) That could have been achieved without war.

Absolutely NOT. That's exactly why FDR led this nation into WW II which most Americans at the time wanted *nothing* to do with. From FDR's (and later Truman's) standpoint, WW II was about restructuring the balance of powers - and wealth - on European soil.

American influence prior to WW II was next to non-existent.

After WW II...huge.

There is a lot of intentional DIS-information about FDR - but without he and his folks, we would be speaking German right about now...me, I probably would not have been born. This country owes its prosperity from 1945 through the 80's to the FDR consensus. Like "socialists" like EIsenhower, and Nixon...and yes liberals like JFK and LBJ, etc.

No one would be speaking German, apart from people who do anyway, be it by birth or by choice....

Hitler lost the war during Battle of Britain, and by getting stuck in the USSR. While I understand that the idea "that the rest of the world would be speaking German if U.S. had not entered the war" is a very popular one, it's is as far-fetched as anything I've ever heard...

The bottom line is...sorry to crush popular myths, but:

a) FDR was a disaster of a President and

b) While the WW II would have most likely lasted longer, it was entirely lost from German standpoint (that no one would admit to at the time) by early 1942, when no U.S. troops were to be found anywhere on the Old Continent...

Good luck to us all.

[albacore44]

Protectionism.............sheesh thats funny. Who do you think is propping up whats left of this country right now ?? The developing world buying our products.We need the developing world to buy our products. You push protectionism, they will go somewhere else. see thats the big problem. we still have the misguided idea that the world revolves around the US. It dont, those days are over gone forever. we are competing in a world economy. The liberals hiding their head in the sand hopeing it will go away, aint gonna make it happen. The faster we accept that fact, the faster we can get on the road to recovery

[AngelinaCatHub]

Albacore, where HAVE you been?? Thank for bringing my favorite 'girl' back. I've missed you and her. 'Hub

[IamOld]

You know I HATE to disagree with you but....

There is an FDR bashing industry from the right...

Re Britain - YES the Brits stood ALONE against Nazi Germany in 1940-41 and were able to stand HItler off - and yes, that alone saved the world - for a while - and frankly thanks to the UK's colonies as well.

YES, the USSR sacrificed more than anyone else up to 20 million dead!!!!!!!!! in WW2 - HOWEVER - by 1941 (early) FDR had been sending materials to the UK AND!!! once the US got into the war, to the USSR. Remember, the USSR's complaint was until 1943, when will there be a "western front?" Once Hitler's forces actually had to do some fighting in North AFrica (Brits mostly) and then Italy, that is when the USSR was able to start pushing back.

No one would be speaking German, apart from people who do anyway, be it by birth or by choice....

Hitler lost the war during Battle of Britain, and by getting stuck in the USSR. While I understand that the idea "that the rest of the world would be speaking German if U.S. had not entered the war" is a very popular one, it's is as far-fetched as anything I've ever heard...

The bottom line is...sorry to crush popular myths, but:

a) FDR was a disaster of a President and

b) While the WW II would have most likely lasted longer, it was entirely lost from German standpoint (that no one would admit to at the time) by early 1942, when no U.S. troops were to be found anywhere on the Old Continent...

Good luck to us all.

[IamOld]

But the thing is - the developing world - aside from China - does not buy US products, unless we're talking about cigarettes and movies. If the US protects itself the SAME way as China or Germany, then you have a market of (soon) 400 million - essentially what it does is this - want to sell here? Make it here. Works elsewhere.

Protectionism.............sheesh thats funny. Who do you think is propping up whats left of this country right now ?? The developing world buying our products.We need the developing world to buy our products. You push protectionism, they will go somewhere else. see thats the big problem. we still have the misguided idea that the world revolves around the US. It dont, those days are over gone forever. we are competing in a world economy. The liberals hiding their head in the sand hopeing it will go away, aint gonna make it happen. The faster we accept that fact, the faster we can get on the road to recovery

[TBA]

I know how i got into my position. I borrowed almost 2mil from the bank (read SBA) to start a disposable income business while the economy was still "booming." I was amazed at just how easy it was to get a loan of that amount - I kid you not, it was harder to buy my house the year before for 165k, than to get a loan from the bank (at the time).

People were living off three incomes. Husband, Wife and House - Yes, many people in my area refinanced more times than most people will ever buy houses in their life, in a matter of about 5 years. Our economy was falsely inflated. I didnt see it at the time, but that saying about hindsight being 20/20...

When disposable incomes started decreasing, and people were living on two incomes - Husband and Wife - because they couldnt pull any more equity out of their home, we started to feel the pinch. Everyone did. They started spending less money, and businesses found themselves doing more with less. I know my expenses remained the same while my customer base dwindled. I wrote the bank a letter, and was told after two weeks of waiting, they would get back to me in two weeks.

Months later, still no answer in hand, i found myself on the phone with the VP of SBA lending at the bank, telling me the same two weeks. Needless to say, they never responded to my pleas for help. I stopped paying my loan. I could no longer afford it. Even though my payments had decreased with the lower interest rates, the decrease i had in customers, and lack of tenants (we used the $$ to buy a strip mall where our business was located to prevent the property from being sold to someone else with development on their mind...) and new businesses, was just too much.

(as an aside, i believe the bank wouldnt work with us due to being SBA backed loan - they had no reason to work with us - it would be better if we failed directly so they would still get their $$ - but then again, i am a woman scorned... LOL)

How did we get here? Did the politicians really have that much to do with it? Did Mr. Greenspan?

We are just as much to blame as the talking heads in dc. People need to take responsibility for their actions. No one forced us to live off our real estate profits. We could have shucked them away for a rainy day. We could have left the growing equity in our homes right there in the real estate, as opposed to refinancing to buy the new car (depreciable asset), the new TV (depreciable asset), the new boat (depreciable asset)... you see where i am going with this.

I dont want my president to fix it - I want him to get the hell out of the way. I want people to get off their "tall steed" and go back to work. When i saw where my business was headed, i looked at going back to school, and took a whole year of classes to better my grades to get into graduate school. I went to work at Walgreens for $10 an hour to - get experience - and to figure out if this was where i wanted to work for the rest of my life. Having been declined for the program i applied, I went to work for my mom.

Why do people not do the same? Why does the executive that got laid off think I dont want to take that job, because I would be paid less than what i can make on unemployment... Why doesnt he go out and start over - working for minimum wage, and working his way back up the company ladder. Why does unemployment pay more? Why do people think they can live off of it? These are the questions that need answers - the ones right here at home, in everyone's back yard.

I know a guy who wont take a job because he makes more on unemployment. It makes me sick. When he talks about what he gets "for free" i want to punch him. I want to tell him it isnt free. I do often say to him, youre welcome, but he doesnt understand.

My husband has taken three paycuts to keep his job. My neighbor just got laid off after 26 years at her company and also after three paycuts trying to save jobs at her company.

Yes, "corporations" are greedy. But so are PEOPLE. Until this generation gets its head out of its a$$, we are doomed to continue down this slippery entitlement slope. This idea of being owed something makes me sick. What happened to earning the things you get?! Really.

Why is it so offensive for someone to go out and earn what they want - what happened to the days of old when you felt good about accomplishing a task that resulted in a reward. And how do we instill that into our children so they dont continue this path.

Isnt there a saying about how necessity breeds invention, or something of the sort? It is about time to let necessity take its course and let people figure out how to get out of the hole they just got done digging.

(forgive my rant, and my avoidance of hitting on politicians, but i didnt want to get into the political/historical debate, i was trying to address the OPs question, and some possible solutions...)

[AngelinaCatHub]

I know how i got into my position. I borrowed almost 2mil from the bank (read SBA) to start a disposable income business while the economy was still "booming." I was amazed at just how easy it was to get a loan of that amount - I kid you not, it was harder to buy my house the year before for 165k, than to get a loan from the bank (at the time).

People were living off three incomes. Husband, Wife and House - Yes, many people in my area refinanced more times than most people will ever buy houses in their life, in a matter of about 5 years. Our economy was falsely inflated. I didnt see it at the time, but that saying about hindsight being 20/20...

When disposable incomes started decreasing, and people were living on two incomes - Husband and Wife - because they couldnt pull any more equity out of their home, we started to feel the pinch. Everyone did. They started spending less money, and businesses found themselves doing more with less. I know my expenses remained the same while my customer base dwindled. I wrote the bank a letter, and was told after two weeks of waiting, they would get back to me in two weeks.

Months later, still no answer in hand, i found myself on the phone with the VP of SBA lending at the bank, telling me the same two weeks. Needless to say, they never responded to my pleas for help. I stopped paying my loan. I could no longer afford it. Even though my payments had decreased with the lower interest rates, the decrease i had in customers, and lack of tenants (we used the $$ to buy a strip mall where our business was located to prevent the property from being sold to someone else with development on their mind...) and new businesses, was just too much.

(as an aside, i believe the bank wouldnt work with us due to being SBA backed loan - they had no reason to work with us - it would be better if we failed directly so they would still get their $$ - but then again, i am a woman scorned... LOL)

How did we get here? Did the politicians really have that much to do with it? Did Mr. Greenspan?

We are just as much to blame as the talking heads in dc. People need to take responsibility for their actions. No one forced us to live off our real estate profits. We could have shucked them away for a rainy day. We could have left the growing equity in our homes right there in the real estate, as opposed to refinancing to buy the new car (depreciable asset), the new TV (depreciable asset), the new boat (depreciable asset)... you see where i am going with this.

I dont want my president to fix it - I want him to get the hell out of the way. I want people to get off their "tall steed" and go back to work. When i saw where my business was headed, i looked at going back to school, and took a whole year of classes to better my grades to get into graduate school. I went to work at Walgreens for $10 an hour to - get experience - and to figure out if this was where i wanted to work for the rest of my life. Having been declined for the program i applied, I went to work for my mom.

Why do people not do the same? Why does the executive that got laid off think I dont want to take that job, because I would be paid less than what i can make on unemployment... Why doesnt he go out and start over - working for minimum wage, and working his way back up the company ladder. Why does unemployment pay more? Why do people think they can live off of it? These are the questions that need answers - the ones right here at home, in everyone's back yard.

I know a guy who wont take a job because he makes more on unemployment. It makes me sick. When he talks about what he gets "for free" i want to punch him. I want to tell him it isnt free. I do often say to him, youre welcome, but he doesnt understand.

My husband has taken three paycuts to keep his job. My neighbor just got laid off after 26 years at her company and also after three paycuts trying to save jobs at her company.

Yes, "corporations" are greedy. But so are PEOPLE. (Corporations are people and inherently greedy.) Until this generation gets its head out of its a$$, we are doomed to continue down this slippery entitlement slope. This idea of being owed something makes me sick. What happened to earning the things you get?! Really.

Why is it so offensive for someone to go out and earn what they want - what happened to the days of old when you felt good about accomplishing a task that resulted in a reward. And how do we instill that into our children so they dont continue this path.

Isnt there a saying about how necessity breeds invention, or something of the sort? It is about time to let necessity take its course and let people figure out how to get out of the hole they just got done digging.

(forgive my rant, and my avoidance of hitting on politicians, but i didnt want to get into the political/historical debate, i was trying to address the OPs question, and some possible solutions...)

One of the best posts I have read. Also the best answer on this thread. CLAP, CLAP, CLAP. 'Hub

[albacore44]

But the thing is - the developing world - aside from China - does not buy US products, unless we're talking about cigarettes and movies. If the US protects itself the SAME way as China or Germany, then you have a market of (soon) 400 million - essentially what it does is this - want to sell here? Make it here. Works elsewhere.

I see. So the rest of the developing world doesnt buy commercial aircraft, cars, trucks , farm and construction heavy equiptment etc. , all made for the most part in the USA ?? and if we institute protectionism somehow magically our economy will snap back all the jobs will come back and we will have sacks of money to buy endless piles of goods all manufactured in the USA ?? thats the path to ultimate ruin. Like I keep saying, the world does not revolve around us. The developing world wants to become us and have our freedoms. Realizing that, and how to leverage it to our avantage is the path to prosperity

[shark66]

You know I HATE to disagree with you but....

There is an FDR bashing industry from the right...

With many valid arguments...as well as tons of nonsense..

Re Britain - YES the Brits stood ALONE against Nazi Germany in 1940-41 and were able to stand HItler off - and yes, that alone saved the world - for a while - and frankly thanks to the UK's colonies as well.

Agreed.

YES, the USSR sacrificed more than anyone else up to 20 million dead!!!!!!!!! in WW2 - HOWEVER - by 1941 (early) FDR had been sending materials to the UK AND!!! once the US got into the war, to the USSR. Remember, the USSR's complaint was until 1943, when will there be a "western front?" Once Hitler's forces actually had to do some fighting in North AFrica (Brits mostly) and then Italy, that is when the USSR was able to start pushing back.

Although military and politics go hand in hand, I believe you're mistaken about a couple of things here, and severely so...

a) Once Brits had the Enigma in their hands (courtesy of the very same man who brought one to U.S. and warned J. Edgar Hoover that Pearl Harbor was to be attacked - we're talking early '41 here), the war fortunes were to about to be overturned...

b) Once Von Paulus surrendered, Germany had no manpower to win anything anymore, regardless of many brave and competent generals, officers and soldiers fighting the war on their side.

c) Russians were complaining for *political* and NOT military reasons. They could've done pretty much everything by themselves - at a cost of a few more million lives - not something Stalin would've had an issue with. But why, when they could play the waiting game and gain half of Europe in the process? Let's not forget that Churchill and FDR gave away Eastern Europe to Stalin in Yalta, in exchange for USSR's continued help in crushing Germany...

Good luck to us all.

[IamOld]

I don't "blame" FDR or CHurchill - the fact is that Stalin needed them and vice versa...the USSR was bleeding badly, needed and got food and equipment from the US...Germany, let us not forget was THE most technologically advanced country on the face of the planet in 1939.

Also - a bit off topic but - we NOW know that they - the Germans - were about 6 months from perfecting an atomic weapon in 1945 and they already had the rocket technology to deliver said weapon - the Japanese were similarly advanced (perhaps with German help) and they had two massive subs ready to go...the amounts of armaments alone - never mind the 16 million men in uniform - that the US supplied were critical -as were the Brits, as were the Soviets. As was the realization early during the war why Hitler and Co risked men etc to conquer Norway....(for the heavy water).

Although military and politics go hand in hand, I believe you're mistaken about a couple of things here, and severely so...

a) Once Brits had the Enigma in their hands (courtesy of the very same man who brought one to U.S. and warned J. Edgar Hoover that Pearl Harbor was to be attacked - we're talking early '41 here), the war fortunes were to about to be overturned...

b) Once Von Paulus surrendered, Germany had no manpower to win anything anymore, regardless of many brave and competent generals, officers and soldiers fighting the war on their side.

c) Russians were complaining for *political* and NOT military reasons. They could've done pretty much everything by themselves - at a cost of a few more million lives - not something Stalin would've had an issue with. But why, when they could play the waiting game and gain half of Europe in the process? Let's not forget that Churchill and FDR gave away Eastern Europe to Stalin in Yalta, in exchange for USSR's continued help in crushing Germany...

Good luck to us all.

[IamOld]

Sudan, etc does not buy US products - neither does Korea (South) why - because South Korea - for example, has extensive protections to prevent foreigners from entering their market. Good for them, bad for 'us' - there is no "level playing field" anywhere - and by the way, about 60% of production from CHina that comes to the US is from AMerican transnationals exporting to themselves in the US.

I know I sound bitter and I am...over the last 30 years, we and only we (and the UK) are committing financial suicide. Manufacturing built this nation - we cannot simply all be pizza delivery people, and work in "finance."

While I blame myself for being here in this "shape," we are all, to one extent or another, victims of the banksters too.

I see. So the rest of the developing world doesnt buy commercial aircraft, cars, trucks , farm and construction heavy equiptment etc. , all made for the most part in the USA ?? and if we institute protectionism somehow magically our economy will snap back all the jobs will come back and we will have sacks of money to buy endless piles of goods all manufactured in the USA ?? thats the path to ultimate ruin. Like I keep saying, the world does not revolve around us. The developing world wants to become us and have our freedoms. Realizing that, and how to leverage it to our avantage is the path to prosperity

[shark66]

I don't "blame" FDR or CHurchill

Good for you.

Millions of us who had to grow up and live under Soviets and/or their puppets - by NO choice of their own - would beg to differ.

On that note, I'm out of this discussion.

Good luck to us all.

[AngelinaCatHub]

I see. So the rest of the developing world doesnt buy commercial aircraft, cars, trucks , farm and construction heavy equiptment etc. , all made for the most part in the USA ?? and if we institute protectionism somehow magically our economy will snap back all the jobs will come back and we will have sacks of money to buy endless piles of goods all manufactured in the USA ?? thats the path to ultimate ruin. Like I keep saying, the world does not revolve around us. The developing world wants to become us and have our freedoms. Realizing that, and how to leverage it to our avantage is the path to prosperity

I believe everyone knows where I stand. I am a staunch Conservative, registered as a Democrat, and lean towards Libertarian. Albacore takes advantage of me so I can't think straight with his first Avatar of long ago, the girl I am taken by. Anyway.......you credified your statement but I must add in, we have a radical Muslim situation that has no homeland to protect. They are impregnating Countries (in the real sense of the word, look at the UK) and are EVERYWHERE. The young right here under our nose are being brought up to hate their neighbors. (see Farrachan (sp)). We have a possible "Manchurian (or better term Achmed (sp)) candidate in our White House as the young lady above mentioned, is NOT staying out of our way.

We have PAID companies to ship out to China (where did Gary Indiana and Pennsylvania steel go?) much of our heavy industry. We shipped our car building to Mexico (see NAFTA) (also too our farmer down in the flower business). So, you are missing, all of you are, that the muddle in this fuddle is: Kill the alligators before draining the swamp.

I am currently in a motel returning from TN to FL. I have seen NO LESS that 10 long convoys going every direction. I've never seen this before. I believe it is to show a presence, due to 911 ten year anniversary. Let's get this little situation cleaned up first, and give our companies who moved over seas, some incentive to move back. I am so tired seeing replicas of tools with our Country's old time names with "made in China" on them. I am also sick of purchasing carriage bolts that break off the heads when you tighten one. Cheap garbage with a one year life then throw it away. I'd rather pay 1K for a microwave than $56 for one if I knew it was going to last like our old refrigerators used to. Twenty years. We had an air crash some time ago due to a Chinese jet engine rotor copy that came apart and blew the engine. I recall it, do you?

I want quality and I will care then if I lose it instead of buying the same damn tool because it costs less to replace it in my time than to look for it in my messy garage. Get my point?

What's with us not getting our own oil??? Lefty's don't give me that BS about preservation of the arctic. We have the technology to keep it all green above while be become self sufficient, and I could care less how much the oil companies prosper, if we don't have to bankroll ARABS who wish to kill us. I want my $0.95 cent a gallon gas back and if the Oil companies make billions, they won't have it in a box. It will be invested in our own Country. A very simple solution. KEEP THE MONEY HERE!

OK, I'm done ranting for now. That young lady's post got me thinkin'. 'Hub

[AngelinaCatHub]

One more tidbit. About the fact we shipped our steel industry to China, guess where the tons of steel went from the World Trade Center? Can you guess? I'll not say, but think about it. IF you really can't figure it out, leave a post and ask me. The country has five letters in it. 'Hub

[IamOld]

Good luck to us all.

Me to Shark (and you know you and I share a lineage, so to speak :-)