Debit cards: $50 spending limit coming?

[OhioFiler]

My comment isn't off topic, and you've missed my point. I'm frustrated that banks are finding more and more ways to charge (penalize?) their customers for using their own money. Banks wouldn't exist without customers, yet their practices are becoming similar to auto insurance (where you are penalized with higher rates for using the very service you pay for). I withdraw cash when needed from my own bank whenever possible of course, who doesn't? There are times where life happens and one can't foresee the need to withdraw cash in advance. Selecting a bank with convenient ATMs is common sense, but no bank has them everywhere.



You're putting words in my mouth (and jumping to conclusions based on assumption).



Not a teller, not even close. In my experience, getting cash back at checkouts has not been free of fees. Two banks and 1 credit union would charge me for cash back withdrawals at a checkout. One charged me a fee when I did a debit transaction instead of credit, regardless of any cash back. I was handing the bank an extra $1.50 every time I bought something. Your tone is condescending, but your words indicate you're happy with the selection of banks available in your area.

I'll repeat my point - I feel the proposal discussed in this article is yet another example of how banks are shifting from 'providing a service to customers and are headed toward 'allowing use by customers' (note the implied entitlement).

I believe banks should charge for services provided. The convenience of accessing your cash 24/7 at locations around the world is well worth a few dollars.

[WhatMoney]

In my experience, getting cash back at checkouts has not been free of fees. Two banks and 1 credit union would charge me for cash back withdrawals at a checkout. One charged me a fee when I did a debit transaction instead of credit, regardless of any cash back. I was handing the bank an extra $1.50 every time I bought something. Your tone is condescending, but your words indicate you're happy with the selection of banks available in your area.

I'll repeat my point - I feel the proposal discussed in this article is yet another example of how banks are shifting from 'providing a service to customers and are headed toward 'allowing use by customers' (note the implied entitlement).

I've never heard of being charged for a cashback transaction using a debit card that was charged by the bank. I know a few small retailers, usually non-profits, that charge a small fee for using ANY debit or charge card - as they are attempting to recover the fee they must pay the card network. Do us all a public service by naming that bank/credit union so others can avoid them.

And charging you anything, much less $1.50, for simply using your debit card for a purchase? Again, what bank does this and still has any customers?

There is still competition in the banking business - you need to find a better bank. Open up a PayPal account and apply for their debit-MC card. It's all free. Do an ACH transfer into PayPal each month from your bank or credit union. Does your bank charge you for an ACH request from outside? I've never heard of that, but you seem to have found the greedy bank from hell to do business with. There are no charges for using your PayPal debit card, and every transaction generates an e-mail confirming the transaction. Actually you don't even need to transfer funds into PayPal, as PP will do an instant transfer from your bank account if you don't have enough funds in your PP account to cover the purchase.

You need to look for bargains in your financial transactions, just like in any other service and product you purchase. Going with a large bank or a bank that charges you to use your debit card for purchases is not a bargain.

By "proposal discussed in this article" I guess you mean the scare tactic put out by some Chase bank lobbyist via CNN in an attempt to scuttle this small business friendly, large retailer friendly, and consumer friendly bill to reduce retailers debit card fees to something reasonable? Who really cares what Chase is threatening? They are telling you loud and clear they do not want your business. It will be boom for smaller banks if they can advertise "no limit no fee debit cards", and attract all the ex-Chase and BoA customers.

[shark66]

There are no charges for using your PayPal debit card, and every transaction generates an e-mail confirming the transaction.

PayPal does charge you $1.00 for every ATM withdrawal. There are NO additional fees at Chase ATMs, though.

Actually you don't even need to transfer funds into PayPal, as PP will do an instant transfer from your bank account if you don't have enough funds in your PP account to cover the purchase.

This is only true if you authorize the link enabling this type of transfer. Having said that, one has to bear in mind the following:

a) PayPal is NOT FDIC regulated like banks are. Your money is NOT protected in the same way it is in a "conventional" bank account.

b) PayPal has a history of freezing user accounts on grounds of "investigation" and never releasing the funds, or releasing them after several months.

c) PayPal is the easiest "non-bank" account to trace for a creditor with a judgment in hand.

Good luck.

[catleg]

I believe banks should charge for services provided. The convenience of accessing your cash 24/7 at locations around the world is well worth a few dollars.

It's worth something, but not a few dollars.
You should see my BofA debit card statement from a recent business trip to South Korea.
Every transaction had a $5.00 charge. The hotel was smart enough to convert their charge to dollars and keep the conversion markup themselves.
(gypped BofA out of 3%)
Luckily I only used the card twice, once at the hotel and once at an ATM.
P.S. My card was unusable at most local ATM's because it has a 6 digit pin, so much for convenience.

[WhatMoney]

There are no charges for using your PayPal debit card, and every transaction generates an e-mail confirming the transaction.

PayPal does charge you $1.00 for every ATM withdrawal. There are NO additional fees at Chase ATMs, though.

The poster was talking about being charged a fee for using a debit card for a purchase and/or for cash back at a place of business. PayPal, and thousands of other debit cards do not charge any fees for these activities. I've never used my PP debit card to withdraw cash at an ATM, since cashback works fine. It I ever did, there is a Chase ATM down the street which does not charge w/ the PP card.

Actually you don't even need to transfer funds into PayPal, as PP will do an instant transfer from your bank account if you don't have enough funds in your PP account to cover the purchase.

This is only true if you authorize the link enabling this type of transfer. Having said that, one has to bear in mind the following:

a) PayPal is NOT FDIC regulated like banks are. Your money is NOT protected in the same way it is in a "conventional" bank account.

No, but it is protected by FDIC pass-through insurance:

You do not need to keep funds with PayPal in order to use our service. If you do hold a balance, you can do so in two ways: (1) PayPal, as your agent, will place your funds in a pooled account at an unaffiliated FDIC-insured bank or savings institution, which is eligible for pass-through FDIC insurance coverage.

In the unlikely event that an FDIC-insured bank in which we place your money fails, your balance placed at the bank would be subject to FDIC pass-through deposit insurance coverage, along with any other deposits you hold at that bank, up to a total of $250,000.00 USD. Pass-through deposit coverage is contingent upon PayPal maintaining accurate records and on determinations of the FDIC as receiver at the time of a future receivership of any bank at which we place your funds. FDIC pass-through deposit insurance protects you only against the failure of the bank at which PayPal places your funds, and does NOT protect you against PayPal's insolvency. Through the terms of our User Agreement, we believe that your funds will also be protected from any claims of PayPal's creditors and will be returned to you even in the unlikely event of a PayPal insolvency.

So only if you are worried PayPal will fail should you be concerned. PayPal has 137 Million accounts worldwide, and is quite profitable and solvent. The banks they use for your funds are all the biggies, Chase, WF, Citibank, HSBC, and BoA. Too big to fail, in case you forgot. And if you are worried about keeping $100 in your PayPal account, keep the account at $0 balance and use their instant transfer service from your FDIC insured bank account. Where is the risk? Money is transferred and paid to the seller instantly. Not much chance for PayPal to get hit by a meteorite and vanish from the face of the earth during a transaction that takes only seconds.

b) PayPal has a history of freezing user accounts on grounds of "investigation" and never releasing the funds, or releasing them after several months.

As you know this is usually for business accounts that suddenly have suspicious transactions or large deposits where PP suspects fraud or money laundering. Personal PayPal accounts where the only activity is bill paying or debit purchases, funded from your checking account are not suspect and subject to freezing. I realize there is a large group of eBayer's who hate PayPal with a passion and constantly blog everything negative about them. Same can be said for any business that has 138 Million accounts. I guess you've bought into the scare tactics of these blogs.

c) PayPal is the easiest "non-bank" account to trace for a creditor with a judgment in hand.

Could you explain why that is? This question has been brought up before and I've never known it was so easy if you don't tell them about the account. And what jurisdiction will a judgment holder have to deliver a writ of garnishment to PayPal? PayPal is headquartered in California, and has processing centers in a couple other states. The typical PalPal account contains less than $200. Explain why a judgment creditor would pay to domesticate a judgment in another state just to serve PayPal, when the reward would be so low.

I gave PayPal as an example only because the poster suggested the banks in her area all charged fees to use a debit card to make a purchase, or to get cash back with a purchase. There are many out-of-state online banks, that also charge NO debit card use fee, and reimburse you for ATM cash w/d fees from the ATM bank, up to some limit, in case you can't find a local smaller bank that will do this.


.

[shark66]

WhatMoney wrote:

No, but it is protected by FDIC pass-through insurance:

Which will do absolutely nothing for an owner whose account gets compromised. I got my money back when my Chase debit card got compromised a few years ago, and someone tapped into my account. Good luck accomplishing this with PayPal.

As you know this is usually for business accounts that suddenly have suspicious transactions or large deposits where PP suspects fraud or money laundering. Personal PayPal accounts where the only activity is bill paying or debit purchases, funded from your checking account are not suspect and subject to freezing.

Hogwash. My personal account was frozen three times in 15 months without a plausible explanation on PayPal's part. I've personally known several individuals whose money vanished into the PayPal "cloud".

They can do whatever they want, unlike the banks.

They don't have to explain anything, unlike the banks.

They are like the phone company from yesteryear. They can do anything and get away with it.

I realize there is a large group of eBayer's who hate PayPal with a passion and constantly blog everything negative about them. Same can be said for any business that has 138 Million accounts. I guess you've bought into the scare tactics of these blogs.

I've got enough horror stories of my own regarding PayPal that I could write a book, don't need anyone else's blogs, but that's not the topic of this thread. The point I was trying to make is that PayPal is nowhere near as safe as most people presume it to be.

Could you explain why that is? This question has been brought up before and I've never known it was so easy if you don't tell them about the account. And what jurisdiction will a judgment holder have to deliver a writ of garnishment to PayPal? PayPal is headquartered in California, and has processing centers in a couple other states. The typical PalPal account contains less than $200. Explain why a judgment creditor would pay to domesticate a judgment in another state just to serve PayPal, when the reward would be so low.

Hogwash # 2. No need to domesticate a judgment. A friend of mine, NY resident, got burned when plaintiff's attorney wrote a letter to PayPal asking for his account info with a copy of judgment enclosed. Not only did PayPal freeze the funds in his account (a small sum) but also disclosed all of his bank account and card numbers that were tied into his PayPal account. This is why.

Once and again, they don't have to guard one's info like a "normal" bank, because they're not one...

Good luck to us all.

[WhatMoney]

No, but it is protected by FDIC pass-through insurance:

Which will do absolutely nothing for an owner whose account gets compromised. I got my money back when my Chase debit card got compromised a few years ago, and someone tapped into my account. Good luck accomplishing this with PayPal.

I see, I mention FDIC pass-thru insurance and you move the goal posts. What does FDIC insurance have to do with fraud protection? Nothing. PayPal has become very buyer friendly in the last couple years - so you have no idea that they would not refund money from a "compromised" debit transaction. People would not get their account hacked if they used proper passwords - 1234 is not a safe password. And for a few bucks you can get a second level of account protection that makes it unhackable online. I suppose you shouldn't be writing your debit PIN number on the card too, in case of theft.

Hogwash. My personal account was frozen three times in 15 months without a plausible explanation on PayPal's part. I've personally known several individuals whose money vanished into the PayPal "cloud".

Oh sure, your account is frozen three times and you lose your money, and PayPal gives you no explanation. Yeah I believe that. You must have done something really suspicious to get their attention.

I have had three PayPal accounts for the last seven years. One for selling, one for buying on eBay, and one for miscellaneous debit transactions. I have NEVER had one single problem or complaint. You have a problem three times in a year - wow bad luck on your part, or there's more your not telling us.

I know three major dealers in my area who use PayPal as their major transaction company since they sell on eBay. One has been at it for 12 years and has a worldwide reputation as an antique dealer - he also has a famous B&M store in the antique district which he's owned for the last 40 years. I've asked about PayPal and he's never had a problem. He sells thousands of items ranging from $50 to $20,000 every year. He is also honest and never argues with a customer. If they don't like an item for any reason he refunds their money and pays for return shipping. His rating is 100% selling ~5,000 high value antiques per year.

Another local dealer buys and sells rare comics, and takes on other items as a business. He sells thousands all over the world - depends on PayPal - and never has a problem with them. He does have a problem dealing with Italians, who always claim they never received the shipment despite delivery proof. Not PayPal's fault.

And another dealer I talk with sells used computer parts - 99.9% rating - high volume business worldwide. Again he has no problems with PayPal, other than the fees they charge to sellers, which everyone has a problem with.

Your experiences simply don't jive with the high volume sellers I know locally, nor my own. Maybe PayPal is just out to get you.

I'll repeat - if you think PayPal is not safe, keep a $0 balance and let them cover a purchase from your bank account. There are no fees for instant transfers - PayPal makes their money from the fees they charge the seller.

Hogwash # 2. No need to domesticate a judgment. A friend of mine, NY resident, got burned when plaintiff's attorney wrote a letter to PayPal asking for his account info with a copy of judgment enclosed. Not only did PayPal freeze the funds in his account (a small sum) but also disclosed all of his bank account and card numbers that were tied into his PayPal account. This is why.

Any attorney armed with a judgment and subpoena can go fishing for information. They did not send the attorney your friends' money did they? They would need to be served with a writ of garnishment by a local sheriff for that to happen, and your friend would have a chance to challenge the garnishment. And the writ would need to come from a local court. PayPal cannot bypass the legal system of the state.

[catleg]

I agree with most of the favorable points about paypal, but the point about a big company like paypal (Ebay) caving in when an attorney waves a judgment at them is an excellent one. I've seen the same behavior document in collection files about Verizon. So while they may not hand over the money, they will certainly hand over all your information, which may be worse (current address, bank accounts, etc.)

[Clabbergirl]

Unfortunately it exists. Whaddayaknow, I'm not making this up.

https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Sending-money/Visa-as-Debit-Instead-of-Credit/td-p/213462 from a quick search.

And from the 1st TN Bank site's fine print - * Certain types of checking accounts employ Per Item Charges. The following debits from such an account will count as Per Item Charge transactions: checks, drafts, pre-authorized electronic fund transfers, cash withdrawals, or wire transfers. The following debits will not count: service charges or fees we impose, and ATM or debit card transactions. A deposit made to a teller will count, but other deposits or credits to your account will not. On statements for some accounts, Per Item Charges are labeled Service Charges.

And from MSNBC, http://redtape.msnbc.com/2007/09/paper-or-plasti.html It's an older article, but I am in TN...maybe banks here are a little bit slow on the trends.


For me, it happened on debit cards with US Bank, US Community Credit Union, and First TN bank. At larger retail places such as Budget Brakes and Walgreens. It may depend on what network the retailer's debit system runs on, but as soon as I discovered the charge for using it as a debit, I immediately started requesting 'credit' for every transaction. The were all free checking accounts, one off which was a rewards debit card (US Bank). No restrictions.

As much as you may hope I'm a naive, irresponsible consumer, I really HAVE looked for bargains in banks. I'm frankly tired of moving banks, moving my paycheck direct deposit, and trying to find a bank with convenient ATMs as you have suggested. Three banks in 6 months? I asked the account manager at the last bank about this and she assured me they did not. That was my mistake in believing she knew what she was talking about. It may be that some retailers treat their debit transactions as EFTs, and others don't. I don't know and don't care anymore. It sounds easy in theory to find that perfect bank, but in practice, not so much. What is easier for me is to run every purchase I make as a credit transaction. The retailer has to pay that fee, and I'm sure it trickles down to all of us, but I cannot handle $1-$1.50 for every purchase I make.

And as for wanting banks to charge for a fee, I disagree. Banks make $ lending our money out to people who may very well end up here on this BK forum in a few years. Profiting off that interest, they still need to charge us convenience fees? Having access to money 24/7 isn't a new concept. People have been making the decision for years to either put their money in a bank where it's safe or keep it stashed somewhere at risk. You sure you're not a newly promoted Chase Bank employee?

[Clabbergirl]

Shark, I've had 2 bad experiences with Paypal when buying things on eBay and Half.com. Once there was a fraudulent purchase - I shipped an item to a buyer and they claimed they never received it. I'd already transferred the payment received into my linked checking account. Paypal considered me guilty until proven innocent, (which took about 45 days to do), and immediately took the payment from my checking account. This caused a couple of overdraft fees and a huge snowball mess.

Something similar happened with Half.com, and that took 2 months to get straightened out. It has seriously dulled my excitement about Paypal. I haven't investigated any of their services because of these previous experiences. I suppose it could happen with anything, but it was so incredibly slow and tedious getting this taken care of that it's given me pause. You're not alone in your suspicions of Paypal...

[shark66]

I see, I mention FDIC pass-thru insurance and you move the goal posts. What does FDIC insurance have to do with fraud protection?

I guess you'd need to familiarize yourself with what FDIC protection entails.

Nothing. PayPal has become very buyer friendly in the last couple years - so you have no idea that they would not refund money from a "compromised" debit transaction. People would not get their account hacked if they used proper passwords - 1234 is not a safe password. And for a few bucks you can get a second level of account protection that makes it unhackable online. I suppose you shouldn't be writing your debit PIN number on the card too, in case of theft.

And you have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about. A debit card can be compromised at a gas station.


Oh sure, your account is frozen three times and you lose your money, and PayPal gives you no explanation. Yeah I believe that. You must have done something really suspicious to get their attention.

I personally don't care what you believe. The type of totalitarian mentality that you're displaying here with "you must have done something" presumption is what was used to keep people silent in Nazi Germany and Soviet Union.

I have had three PayPal accounts for the last seven years. One for selling, one for buying on eBay, and one for miscellaneous debit transactions. I have NEVER had one single problem or complaint. You have a problem three times in a year - wow bad luck on your part, or there's more your not telling us.

I know three major dealers in my area who use PayPal as their major transaction company since they sell on eBay. One has been at it for 12 years and has a worldwide reputation as an antique dealer - he also has a famous B&M store in the antique district which he's owned for the last 40 years. I've asked about PayPal and he's never had a problem. He sells thousands of items ranging from $50 to $20,000 every year. He is also honest and never argues with a customer. If they don't like an item for any reason he refunds their money and pays for return shipping. His rating is 100% selling ~5,000 high value antiques per year.

Another local dealer buys and sells rare comics, and takes on other items as a business. He sells thousands all over the world - depends on PayPal - and never has a problem with them. He does have a problem dealing with Italians, who always claim they never received the shipment despite delivery proof. Not PayPal's fault.

I've had a situation like that - but not with Italians - explode in my face last year to the tune of $2,500 net loss on my end. I don't see how it's not PayPal's fault when I had the signed proof of delivery abroad, and they still allowed the chargeback. Wow. Great seller protection. But once again, that's beside the scope of this thread.

And another dealer I talk with sells used computer parts - 99.9% rating - high volume business worldwide. Again he has no problems with PayPal, other than the fees they charge to sellers, which everyone has a problem with.

I retired my eBay business last year after more than a decade and a 99.7% positive rating on the day I closed the account. Many people I've done business over the course of years left before me, quite a few of them because of PayPal, and I'm not talking about fees. Fees are a business expense that one has to calculate in their bottom line.

Your experiences simply don't jive with the high volume sellers I know locally, nor my own. Maybe PayPal is just out to get you.

I'm not keen on PayPal, but am not paranoid either. Like any other big business, they'll push their limits to see what they can get away with. So far, they've done an excellent job of getting away with plenty...

I'll repeat - if you think PayPal is not safe, keep a $0 balance and let them cover a purchase from your bank account. There are no fees for instant transfers - PayPal makes their money from the fees they charge the seller.

I know PayPal is not safe. Their policies have cost me south of ten grand over the past decade. Not the scope of this thread.

Any attorney armed with a judgment and subpoena can go fishing for information. They did not send the attorney your friends' money did they? They would need to be served with a writ of garnishment by a local sheriff for that to happen, and your friend would have a chance to challenge the garnishment. And the writ would need to come from a local court. PayPal cannot bypass the legal system of the state.

That's what you think. Ignorance is bliss.

As I've said before, the point was not the money, but the data...

Good luck to us all.

[WhatMoney]

.

Unfortunately it exists. Whaddayaknow, I'm not making this up.

https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Sending-money/Visa-as-Debit-Instead-of-Credit/td-p/213462 from a quick search.
There is no excuse for having a bank that charges debit fees per transaction. How many transactions/mo did this woman make?

And from the 1st TN Bank site's fine print - * Certain types of checking accounts employ Per Item Charges. The following debits from such an account will count as Per Item Charge transactions: checks, drafts, pre-authorized electronic fund transfers, cash withdrawals, or wire transfers. The following debits will not count: service charges or fees we impose, and ATM or debit card transactions. A deposit made to a teller will count, but other deposits or credits to your account will not. On statements for some accounts, Per Item Charges are labeled Service Charges.

Yes I found that in Footnote 5. And what do these extra charges (0.50/transaction) apply to? Student accounts only and ONLY FOR OVER 25 TRANSACTIONS/MO:

Student Checking No charge
More than 1 teller transaction $5
Per Item Charge (5) for each check, withdrawal, or teller deposit, after the first 25 per month.

Who has over 25 debit card transactions/mo? Geez, carry some cash for that cup of coffee and donut.

And from MSNBC, http://redtape.msnbc.com/2007/09/paper-or-plasti.html It's an older article, but I am in TN...maybe banks here are a little bit slow on the trends.

Yeah older article and obsolete since you can and should opt out of debit card overdrafts. Nothing in the article about debit card fees for purchases either. I always use the credit signature option for any larger transaction where I might worry about a claim. But debit cards work fine for groceries, gas, and other expendables. By using credit you are just costing the merchant more money in exchange fees. This is foolish for small purchases.

For me, it happened on debit cards with US Bank, US Community Credit Union, and First TN bank. At larger retail places such as Budget Brakes and Walgreens. It may depend on what network the retailer's debit system runs on, but as soon as I discovered the charge for using it as a debit, I immediately started requesting 'credit' for every transaction. The were all free checking accounts, one off which was a rewards debit card (US Bank). No restrictions.

I know of only one business locally that actually charges extra for using a debit card, and it is a low margin bakery outlet store where a typical sale is under $5. AND they have a large sign warning you that they will add $0.50 to any debit or credit card purchase. They also warn you if you hand them your debit card. Of the dozens of other stores I shop at I have never heard of such a thing. And in this case it is NOT the banks that are doing this, it is the merchant.

As much as you may hope I'm a naive, irresponsible consumer, I really HAVE looked for bargains in banks. I'm frankly tired of moving banks, moving my paycheck direct deposit, and trying to find a bank with convenient ATMs as you have suggested.

Oh get off the silly remarks. Why would I hope you are naive etc? You just seem to have found a way to pay card fees when others do not. I have no more suggestions for you then. It is unheard of where I live, and have lived (four other states). And I don't even see these fees listed in the Bank of TN you referenced, except for a student account over 25 transactions. They also charge students $5 if you use a teller more than once/month. To which I say WTF? That is ridiculous. I'm glad I live in a more progressive state, where small banks know your name, welcome you, and could care less if you show up every day to turn in a roll of pennies and pick up another free ballpoint pen.

And for the record, I was given my first bank ATM card in 1970, and have been using them and the newer debit/credit cards ever since, 41 years. And I have never paid a single penny in an ATM or debit card fee ever. And I have never had to search for the perfect bank either, since all the banks here have the same policies. I guess I'm beginning to feel sorry for you now.

[WhatMoney]

That's what you think. Ignorance is bliss.

As I've said before, the point was not the money, but the data...

I figured you were another disgruntled eBay seller who is blaming all your business troubles on PayPal. That's why I used the successful eBay Sellers I know locally as counter-examples to your rants. They didn't quit - and they haven't had your troubles. They have learned how to work with the eBay/PayPal system, not quit and then bad mouth it forever.

Let's see, hogwash (#1, #2, #3), no clue, ignorance is bliss, Nazis, and the Russians - anything else you'd like to add?

[shark66]

I figured you were another disgruntled eBay seller who is blaming all your business troubles on PayPal. That's why I used the successful eBay Sellers I know locally as counter-examples to your rants. They didn't quit - and they haven't had your troubles. They have learned how to work with the eBay/PayPal system, not quit and then bad mouth it forever.

I'm not badmouthing anyone, simply telling the truth. My reasons for leaving eBay are not something I have to explain to you, or anyone else but will state this much: there are markets outside of eBay. There are payment means beside PayPal, and ones that don't report their users to the government once they go over certain number of transactions or certain dollar amount.

In all honesty, I'm not disgruntled at all when it comes to eBay. It was fun for a long time, much longer than I had initially expected. And yes, I did see the change coming about two years prior to me actually leaving the place. From a sheer business standpoint, it was not making any sense anymore after 2010.

The difference between your "successful" sellers and myself is that I used eBay to create a customer base outside of it, mostly overseas, willing to play by a different set of rules in order to get what they want. But I'm getting carried away here and off topic, once again.

Let's see, hogwash (#1, #2, #3), no clue, ignorance is bliss, Nazis, and the Russians - anything else you'd like to add?

Absolutely. This is the last time I'm responding to anything you write on this forum.

You don't like being called on your habit of twisting other people's words and responding with sarcasm when you run out of facts which happens most of the time.

Put in all the smileys you feel like, this is a free country - at least in that respect.

I never go into a duel of wits against an unarmed opponent. Had high hopes that you'd pull something - anything - out worth continuing this debate, but that was not meant to be.

Maybe in another lifetime.

Good luck.

[WhatMoney]

Absolutely. This is the last time I'm responding to anything you write on this forum.

Finally!! Thank you very much - you won't be missed.