It's Impossible To "Get By" In The US

[WhatMoney]

The article uses the median household income. Since the majority of families are 2-income, it is unrealistic to limit them to 1 vehicle. If you look at the budget I created, I put $300 for gas, that's $150/mo per person, which is actually less than your figure, but more overall. I don't think $300/mo gas, $150 insurance, and $100 car maintenance/fee expense for 2 older vehicles (no car payment) is excessive at all (total of $550/mo).

The initial article also doesn't account for out-of-pocket medical costs. So, yes, you have medical insurance, but don't you dare go see a dr. or fill a prescription. Again, highly unrealistic for a family of 4. Heaven forbid you have to fill a cavity or buy a pair of glasses.

Hey, I'm all for living without cable. I don't have cable tv or even a cell phone (gasp!), we live a pretty bare-bones lifestyle, maybe it's just our part of the country, but I can't imagine only paying $150 a month in utilities (electric, gas, water, basic telephone). And your snarky remark about "do you have to water the lawn" is a bit much. I mean, come on, you have to have water to drink, cook with, do laundry & dishes, and shower. We don't water our yard at all during the winter and our bill is still over $70 a month and we don't even bathe every day! (we do water our lawn during the summer and our water bill alone is close to $200 a month! I'm sure I'll be stoned now!) By the tone of your posts, I'm sure next you'll be telling "Joe" he needs to read by candlelight...

I just don't think that either the initial budget prepared in the article or the one you've prepared are feasible. Maybe we should just agree to disagree on this point though....

No, no it's more fun to disagree. Life would be so boring if we all agreed on everything.

I don't want you to use candles, since that would contribute to global warming... Otherwise, if it was good enough for Abe Lincoln...

Our car expenses are close, and you budgeted two. I have two older cars, and you would be shocked what I spend per month on them including everything. (Less than $100/mo, but I do simple car maintenance under a shade tree in the summertime, and work at home.)

Utilities and all that - depends on where you live and lifestyle. Many here buy newer homes with little to no yard to maintain. Rocks and bark dust and some shrubs/trees are less work than raising grass all summer. And it is possible to raise a family in an apartment if you want to save home maintenance - but that's only for poor people in cities I guess. (Like Obama's grandparents for instance.)

Dental insurance is a major hole in many medical plans. Medicare doesn't cover it at all. And dentists charge too much - some of them are just crooks. I could tell a few stories... Don't eat sweets, floss and brush twice a day - but of course kids today must all have perfect teeth with the shiny white smile - we wouldn't want them to look like the English. (trying to offend as many as possible today)



Afterthought - In the 1950's many families of 4 with two working parents survived just fine with only one vehicle. Mine was one. I never owned a car until I finished college. I would walk or bike to school (3 miles away). In really bad weather, my mother would take me to school, then drive downtown and drop off my dad for work, then go to work herself. She kept the only car in the daytime. After school I would walk or bike to my part-time job downtown, sometimes finish in time to meet my dad at 6PM, where we would wait for Mom to pick us both up. Otherwise, I took the bus home at night if the weather was bad. One car family for 18 years - and we didn't even know we were deprived. Same story with all my relatives, who had larger families. Two cars? That was for the rich folks... Not us middle class. Times have changed - two generations living beyond their means, and now learning the hard way.

[Tman]

The article also fails to mention anything about student loan debt. It is very likely that Joe would have to have a college degree in order to make $50k. The average student accumulates $23,000 in student loans with a monthly payment of $250 a month.

[WhatMoney]

The article also fails to mention anything about student loan debt. It is very likely that Joe would have to have a college degree in order to make $50k. The average student accumulates $23,000 in student loans with a monthly payment of $250 a month.

That's possible, but the median income for a college graduate with a bachelors degree is around $68,000. The $50K household income could be from two household workers with no college degree or debt. Only 27% of the US population has a college degree.

[Tman]

I should have been more precise, as most student loan debt does not lead to a bachelors degree. There are millions of people who borrow money to attend trade schools (which typically do not offer degrees), community college (offering only associate degrees), colleges, universities and professional schools. For some universties the drop out rate approaches 40% or more. In trade schools and community colleges the rate are even higher. Student loan debt may in fact be a larger problem facing America than the cost of health care.

[tay666]

maybe it's just our part of the country, but I can't imagine only paying $150 a month in utilities

Neither can I.
I pay
Electric - 70
natural gas - 100
water - 50
trash - 30

That is $250 a month without even figuring in a phone or cable.
And that is without watering the lawn (or anything else for that matter)
All my appliances (dryer, stove, heat) are gas, and my electric bill is still $70 a month. And we don't have air conditioning either.
The gas bill averages $100 month, and that is with keeping the heat on 60 in the winter.

[Jackdog]

Summer I get bills in the $250 range (keeping AC set at 78*) winter months it's between $85-120.
Water is about $30
Trash is $10
Direct TV has become a rip off.
Home phone with just the basics and internet (which he does need) is $70
My HELOC doesn't pay insurance or property taxes that's an average of $200 a month also.

[Tman]

Some figures for Ohio
Median income $48,011, median house value $103,700. Family of four
Based on standard deductions, 4 exemptions, and including SSI, Medicare and state income tax, net monthly take home pay is $3,465/month
Net pay $3,465
Housing -$ 762 = based on 90% LTV mtg at 5%, 360 mo plus tax and ins
Leaves $2,703
Basics $ 350 - Medical insurance
$ 100 - misc out of pocket medical
$ 400 - utilities - gas, electric, water and sewer
$ 600 - food
$ 100 - clothing
$ 100 - maintenance
Less basics $1,053
Transport $ 250 - typical car payment
$ 175 - gas, assumes 15k/20mpg/$2.75gal
$ 100 - insurance - full coverage
$ 100 - maintenance (including reserve for tires, tune-up, oil)
Less Trans $ 428
St. Loan $ 150 - assumes approx $15,000 student loan debt
$ 278 - net disposable income
This assumes one car (not likely) and absolutely no credit card or personal loan debt. Can a family make it? Yes, but the odds of continuing w/o any unexpected expenses with a cushion of less than 10% of net take home pay os extremely unlikely.

[tay666]

Some figures for Ohio
Median income $48,011, median house value $103,700. Family of four
Based on standard deductions, 4 exemptions, and including SSI, Medicare and state income tax, net monthly take home pay is $3,465/month
Net pay $3,465
Housing -$ 762 = based on 90% LTV mtg at 5%, 360 mo plus tax and ins
Leaves $2,703
Basics $ 350 - Medical insurance
$ 100 - misc out of pocket medical
$ 400 - utilities - gas, electric, water and sewer
$ 600 - food
$ 100 - clothing
$ 100 - maintenance
Less basics $1,053
Transport $ 250 - typical car payment
$ 175 - gas, assumes 15k/20mpg/$2.75gal
$ 100 - insurance - full coverage
$ 100 - maintenance (including reserve for tires, tune-up, oil)
Less Trans $ 428
St. Loan $ 150 - assumes approx $15,000 student loan debt
$ 278 - net disposable income
This assumes one car (not likely) and absolutely no credit card or personal loan debt. Can a family make it? Yes, but the odds of continuing w/o any unexpected expenses with a cushion of less than 10% of net take home pay os extremely unlikely.

Wish I had that much income.
Our gross last year was $23000.
This year should be much better now that my wife is getting $600 a month for SSD finally.
That is why we can finally afford to file BK.
And will finally have some money to fix the cars and the house.

[keepinitreal]

Some figures for Ohio
Median income $48,011, median house value $103,700. Family of four

I'm probably misunderstanding something, but when I look up the median income for a family of 4 in Ohio I find $73,040.

(http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...come_table.htm)

[WhatMoney]

But I can't imagine only paying $150 a month in utilities (electric, gas, water, basic telephone).

Neither can I. Note I included $100/mo for telephone and Internet in addition to $151 for utilities, or $251/mo for utilities including telephone. That is also what our state allows per family for a utility cost when figuring low income programs.

Living in an extreme cold/hot climate, using natural gas, and watering lawns can drive up the cost of utilities. But there are ways to avoid those costs.

Since everyone is figuring their home expenses, I'll do it for my 2 bedroom apartment:

Electric - $100/mo - included electric heat in winter and A/C in summer and all electric kitchen and water heater. No natural gas used. I live in a moderate climate.
Water - $8/mo. (and I shower everyday too)
Sewer - $22/mo.
Trash - $10/mo.
Telephone and 3MB DSL Internet - $35/mo
Total Utilities including phone and Internet (OTA TV is free): $175/month.

Car expenses - Two older cars paid for, only drive one at a time. 2-car discount, good driver discount, etc. Insurance: $32.50/month

Gas: $50/mo assuming $3/gallon gas. Both cars get 25 mpg city. Since I don't commute, I only drive about 5000 miles/year.

Maintenance: $20/month. ($240/year). Assumes no major failures, but I've never had an expensive failure driving reliable Japanese autos for the last 35 years. Less than 100K miles on both cars. Replace tires every 10 years, $600. That's only $5/mo for tires. Replace disc brakes, $40 for front and back, every 30,000 miles. Oil Changes - $10 oil and new filter. Do it yourself and save hundreds (thousands?) License Registration: $150 every two years or $6.25/month.
Total transportation cost for two cars: $100/month.

Health Costs: $20/month - Includes MA premiums, office visit co-pays, and prescription drug cost. Thanks Medicare (I'm retired).

Food: $150/month, and I eat a healthy Mediterranean diet including red wine.

Rent: $850/month - my only luxury - and for what I have, a bargain.

So basics around $1300/mo, with another $100 for misc. Oh, and I have no CC debt. (since I stopped paying it 5 years ago.)

[Tman]

I'm probably misunderstanding something, but when I look up the median income for a family of 4 in Ohio I find $73,040.

(http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...come_table.htm)

I used the median income for the state of Ohio from this link

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/39000.html

I believe it is the same source that the OP used. It is THE median income for the state regardless of family size. Which is the same info that the OP used.
I also used the median house value. The OP used the national median house value. I was using like data - state vs national.
I also found that using the site you noted, that actual expense allowances in bakruptcy are considerably higher than most any of the household expenses noted in any post in this thread
For instance the allowable living expenses for a family of four is $1371 including $754 for vote (vs $600 in most posts) and $244 for clothing (vs $100)

http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/20100315/bci_data/national_expense_standards.htm

Similarly ownership cost are $496 per car which is also considerably higher tham some of the estimates in this thread.

http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/20100315/bci_data/IRS_Trans_Exp_Stds_MW.htm

[momofthree]

It's interesting to read about utilities around the country. Our natural gas is dirt cheap and our electricity is sky high, we live in a very warm climate, and of course our a/c is electric which is just uber-expensive to run. We keep our house between 80-82 degrees during the summer months and our bill is still at least $250/mo just for electricity (and we live in a new-ish "energy smart" home). Ouch....

[dakota112]

I was a primary care doctor. That was my mistake but never again, It is almost impossible to run a private practice and not go into horrible debt unless you are are a doc who is not uncomfortable spending 2 minutes with a pt and hand is on the door knob for most of the visit. Health care is finished in this country. Anyways I'm better off now not working rather than trying to make it as a doctor. The specialists still have a chance as they have raped the system for years but primary care was fed the scraps. On top of all of this, taxes are to high inthe USA.