Almost there

[lgeiger99]

I have had dialogue back and forth the last couple of days with the trustees office.

1. My total amount being repaid to my plan was -2300.00 less than theirs. When pressed, they had me paying 1600.00 to general unsecured debt over the course of my plan. Finally, they agreed to zero based on my ways and means. I'm surprised that it took some adamant conversation on my part to get them to accept zero.

2. Please verify this statement:

To calculate the trustee's fee, you add together the unsecured and secured debt. Divide that number by 10% and finally, one percent of that number is the trustee's fee.

I thought that the Trustee's fee was based on 10% of secured debt, including interest.

3. Where can I find a calculator that will compound interest monthly? I looked on line, and the one I am using is significantly different than the one they are using.

I'm trying to calculate compound interest on a car loan of 12,961.00 at 4.25 interest over 60 months. I came up with $1,448.69 & the trustee came up with $1,850.95.

Now, for the good news - if I can accept their calculation of the trustee payment and interest, my plan can be confirmed within days. I'm asking, no begging, for someone here to take a look at this and help me get ok with it.

[LadyInTheRed]

For the interest on the car loan, I came up with the same number you did. I used several calculators I found on the web and go the same number, but only found one that specifically said it compounded the payments monthly: http://www.coolmath.com/calculators/...auto-loan.html.

[justbroke]

To calculate the trustee's fee, you add together the unsecured and secured debt. Divide that number by 10% and finally, one percent of that number is the trustee's fee.

The Trustee's fee is 10% of all monies that go "through" the Trustee. That is, payments to an attorney (if included in plan), priority payment (for things like taxes), secured debt AND unsecured debt payments (your "disposable" monthly income or DMI). I don't understand your math.

3. Where can I find a calculator that will compound interest monthly? I looked on line, and the one I am using is significantly different than the one they are using.

Why are you compounding interest?

I'm trying to calculate compound interest on a car loan of 12,961.00 at 4.25 interest over 60 months. I came up with $1,448.69 & the trustee came up with $1,850.95.

You're asking about the total interest as amortized over the 60 months. That is about $1,448.60. I can't tell you why the Trustee has a different number. They are probably using a different interest rate. I don't know how Till works in your District. (To me, it appears that the interest rate used by the Trustee -- all other things being equal -- is about 5.375%.)

Now, for the good news - if I can accept their calculation of the trustee payment and interest, my plan can be confirmed within days. I'm asking, no begging, for someone here to take a look at this and help me get ok with it.

I can't tell you if your plan will be confirmed or not! It's all about feasibility and that you are paying the right creditors the right amount.

[lgeiger99]

Let me try and be more clear. I'm not looking for you to tell me if my plan can be confirmed; the trustee has told me it would if I accept their values. I'm trying to break it down so I can see where there numbers are coming from.

Why was I compounding interest?

Because the trustee told me they were compounding interest.

My only secured debt is my car. The court has accepted 12,961.00 as the valuation. 4.25 interest = 1,448.69 or $14,409.70 total. I calculate the trustee fee
at 10% of that or 1,409.70. That makes my plan total $15,558.39.

The plan administrator today informed me that interest is 1,850.95 (I know I initially told you 1,766.72 because that is what she told me at first; then she changed it. She said they have complicated software and the interest I calculate is incorrect.

She told me the trustee fee is calculated on unsecured debt, secured debt added together. Then you take 10% of that figure and then 1% of the remaining figure - she came up with 1,605.78.

I'm writing for help because I am trying to make sense of her figures. Thanks for your help by the way! I appreciate it.

[lgeiger99]

By the way, if it helps, I am in Arizona.

[lgeiger99]

I found the rule - it's 28 U.S.C 586 (e) the Trustee may collect the percentage fee from all payments and property received, not to exceed 10%. What she told me is incorrect. She's not listed on my Trustees website as an employee, but she is a lawyer. I don't understand why she gave me incorrect information. There is a model plan on my trustee website and the court website (they wrote the 10% on the plan - that's the unbelievable part to me - they wrote it.)

As to the car interest, you can help me again if you calculate (I don't know how, sorry!) what interest percentage is on 12,961 principal of car with interest amount of $1,850.95. Thank you! I'm trying to figure out the interest rate she is trying to charge me - she said it was 4.25%. And if you could find it in your heart to tell me how you calculate it, I will be forever in your debt. Thank you!

[justbroke]

First, regarding confirmation. It is not up to the Trustee to confirm a plan. Plan confirmation is done by the Judge since it is an Order of the court. If the Trustee says that they "approve" or otherwise accept your plan, then the confirmation hearing will go much easier. This is why I can't categorically say that just because a Trustee says a plan is okay, that the Judge will rubber stamp it. There are times when the Judges actually look at the plans and reject them on their own accord.

As I wrote above, I don't know how your Trustee calculated your interest. The rate is either about 5.375% on $12,961 or they are not using $12.961 as the balance. You would need an explanation from the Trustee's office.

Technically, what you should be worried about, is having your Plan accurate. The Trustee will always take the plan and actually write the Order of Confirmation (for the Judge to sign). It may be "different" from your Plan. Your Plan would simply show the secured debt of $12,961 at 4.25% with a monthly payment to the Trustee of $240.16.

[lgeiger99]

I received a Stipulated Order Confirming 4th amended chapter 13 plan. There is a paragraph in it that says "Debtor shall be making the following monthly payments:"

Payment 13-60 has my payment increased by $50.00/mo. I called the trustee's office, spoke to a lawyer who told me that I was repaying unsecured debt at 1.98% that she had included in the payment. My plan was 0 debt repayment. So, had they already changed the plan. If I make it sound easy, it wasn't - she was defensive, didn't want to give me information, rude and I had to ask her the same questions different ways to get that piece of information out of her. At one point, she said, "you give me the numbers! Give me the numbers!" It was in my plan already.

I had to insist my plan was zero repayment to unsecured, and she recalculated the plan payments.
In the same conversation, I questioned the trustee fee and the interest rate on the car and reported above what I was told.

I asked for a printout to show me how she arrived at the car interest rate and the trustee fee because what she said wasn't making sense to me. She insisted they were now correct and said "we would go to court" if I didn't sign the new order she is going to send. She did agree to send me her printout if "it wasn't against the law, she had to check."

I'm just going to have to call her again today. I'm going to ask for her email address as well so we get items in writing. She's real excitable and extremely arrogant so conversation with her is difficult.

[IamOld]

Wow - is she a junior employee trying to a) cover her rear end, b) trying to make herself a "useful" employee by any chance?

And, she may be a lawyer, but is she clueless when it comes to accounting?

Oh - and is your atty just not involved at all??

All the best wishes to you!!!!

I received a Stipulated Order Confirming 4th amended chapter 13 plan. There is a paragraph in it that says "Debtor shall be making the following monthly payments:"

Payment 13-60 has my payment increased by $50.00/mo. I called the trustee's office, spoke to a lawyer who told me that I was repaying unsecured debt at 1.98% that she had included in the payment. My plan was 0 debt repayment. So, had they already changed the plan. If I make it sound easy, it wasn't - she was defensive, didn't want to give me information, rude and I had to ask her the same questions different ways to get that piece of information out of her. At one point, she said, "you give me the numbers! Give me the numbers!" It was in my plan already.

I had to insist my plan was zero repayment to unsecured, and she recalculated the plan payments.
In the same conversation, I questioned the trustee fee and the interest rate on the car and reported above what I was told.

I asked for a printout to show me how she arrived at the car interest rate and the trustee fee because what she said wasn't making sense to me. She insisted they were now correct and said "we would go to court" if I didn't sign the new order she is going to send. She did agree to send me her printout if "it wasn't against the law, she had to check."

I'm just going to have to call her again today. I'm going to ask for her email address as well so we get items in writing. She's real excitable and extremely arrogant so conversation with her is difficult.

[lgeiger99]

I'm pro se, IAO. I don't think she's a junior lawyer- she and her hubby (or dad?) have a website of their own bankruptcy practice in a town close to the Trustee. She's not listed as an employee on the trustee website. Maybe he has hired outside help due to a increase in bk filings? Thanks for the best wishes. I appreciate it.

[IamOld]

I'm pro se, IAO. I don't think she's a junior lawyer- she and her hubby (or dad?) have a website of their own bankruptcy practice in a town close to the Trustee. She's not listed as an employee on the trustee website. Maybe he has hired outside help due to a increase in bk filings? Thanks for the best wishes. I appreciate it.

First, I take my hat off to you sir (or madam :-) I don't know how pro se folks do it, ESPECIALLY a Ch 13...my amateur inner-psychologist would say that she is daughter working with father, and trying to outdo Dad...

[justbroke]

I received a Stipulated Order Confirming 4th amended chapter 13 plan. There is a paragraph in it that says "Debtor shall be making the following monthly payments:"

Ah... I didn't now that you were already confirmed. This makes a difference!

Payment 13-60 has my payment increased by $50.00/mo. I called the trustee's office, spoke to a lawyer who told me that I was repaying unsecured debt at 1.98% that she had included in the payment. My plan was 0 debt repayment. So, had they already changed the plan. If I make it sound easy, it wasn't - she was defensive, didn't want to give me information, rude and I had to ask her the same questions different ways to get that piece of information out of her. At one point, she said, "you give me the numbers! Give me the numbers!" It was in my plan already.

Looks like they used a so-called "step" plan, and this is what may be what skewed your numbers, since interest would STILL accrue, yet you're not making payments!

I had to insist my plan was zero repayment to unsecured, and she recalculated the plan payments.
In the same conversation, I questioned the trustee fee and the interest rate on the car and reported above what I was told.

I am very very glad that you did that. I had a similar problem where the Trustee's assistant misread "0.02%" and entered "2.00%" as my payment to unsecured creditors. After some speaking, we determined that it was actually "0.00%" to unsecured creditors since I had included rental income that was not "forward" looking.

I asked for a printout to show me how she arrived at the car interest rate and the trustee fee because what she said wasn't making sense to me. She insisted they were now correct and said "we would go to court" if I didn't sign the new order she is going to send. She did agree to send me her printout if "it wasn't against the law, she had to check."

You did well to demand "how" they calculated the interest. Many times, these assistants just use computer software for the calculations. None of this is done by hand. It's difficult for them to explain it because there are other factors... such as a "step" plan! A step plan will affect the interest accrued quite easily!

I'm just going to have to call her again today. I'm going to ask for her email address as well so we get items in writing. She's real excitable and extremely arrogant so conversation with her is difficult.

Actually, the correct way to do this was to file an Objection to Confirmed plan within the 14 days that you were allowed to do so. It is almost always counter-productive to argue with the Trustee's clerks. I've been there... and I really got nowhere.

[lgeiger99]

Hi justbroke,

I haven't signed the stipulation and it hasn't been filed by the court. So, if we can't agree on the numbers in the new order she is preparing, then I just don't sign and file a "Objection to Stipulated Order confirming 4th amended chapter 13 plan."

"It's difficult for them to explain it because there are other factors... such as a "step" plan! A step plan will affect the interest accrued quite easily!"

Can you tell me more about this "step plan"? How can I find out if this is what the trustee is utilizing? Can I have any effect over it if they are?

[lgeiger99]

justbroke, googled "step plan." Doesn't seem to apply to me as I can't see any factors in my situation where my income would change (such as 401k repayment, etc.), with the exception of a major change - I am unemployed and obviously when I return to work, the Trustee will have to be notified. But, that shouldn't affect the Trustee's calculations now.

[justbroke]

You wrote that "Payment 13-60 has my payment increased by $50.00/mo". That's a step plan. This is, apparently, how your Trustee is calculating your payments. I don't have your exact plan and how each month's payments work out. If the amount changes in any month, then it's a step plan by definition.

Also, you would not "object" to a stipulated order. You just don't sign it. However, you do need to work out something with the Trustee or they won't recommend confirmation and you'll end up fighting for confirmation. If you want to fight with the Trustee over $7.35/month difference ($441 and change spread over 60 months), then I'd just say that some battles are not worth fighting over, when it comes to confirmation.

I would also say that I'm shocked that you can get to confirmation if there is only one income in your household and you don't have "regular" income. In the end, you just may not want to rock this boat too much.