Filed yesterday, should I notify IRS?

[mcjcbk]

I inlcuded them in my BK. Prior to filing they requested I mail in some paperwork which I didnt bcz I was going to file BK. Should I call them to notify them? Filed pro se.

[justbroke]

What Chapter did you file? Did you include them as a creditor on Schedule E or Schedule F (or possibly Schedule D if they have already liened/levied)? Did you include them on the Matrix at the Insolvency Operations address?

[mcjcbk]

I filed Chapter 7 and lsited them on Schedule E as a Priorty Creditor. The address on Matrix was the Bensalem PA address where their Collection notices came from...the address I was to mail my paperwork to.

[justbroke]

The IRS will be notified automatically if you included them on the Matrix. Since this is priority debt, it is not dischargeable. If you are an asset case, the Trustee may use some of the proceeds of the asset sales to pay the IRS debt. Once your case is discharged, contact the IRS and setup an installment or other payment plan with them to pay the debt, but you don't need to do so, and can't do so, while your discharge is pending.

[mcjcbk]

Its a no asset case. The taxes are from 2003, 2004 and 2006 why wouldn't they be dischargeable?

[justbroke]

Because you said that they aren't dischargeable. You did this by giving them priority and placing put them on Schedule E. Schedule is for priority unsecured creditors and is only for taxes that are entitled to priority. This is one problem with being a pro se debtor and not understanding the law, especially around taxes.

If you filed the taxes more than 2 years prior to filing, and it wasn't from a tax assessed within 240 days of filing, and the taxes were last due without penalty more than 3 years ago (2006 would be the earlier possible dischargeable tax year), then the tax is subject to discharge. However, if the IRS filed a lien -- which is highly likely -- then these taxes are secured debt and may still be entitled to priority. I've never really seen too many people actually have taxes over 3 years old (since due without penalty) and that the IRS hasn't taken any aggressive maneuvers like levies and liens!

You would have listed the IRS for those tax years on Schedule F and treated the IRS as a general unsecured creditor.

I highly suggest that you do some more research and then amend your schedules.

You haven't mentioned how much these back taxes are. If they are significant (over $10K) and you do not meet any of the exclusions above, or have a Notice of Federal Tax Lien filed... you really need expert tax advice and an attorney who can assist you. Otherwise, you'll not discharge those taxes.

[mcjcbk]

Its $7800...So the key phrase in the exlusion is "due without penalty"?

Thanks I will do some more research. Also I had been on an installment agreement with them all these years

[justbroke]

Yes, so that means that the EARLIEST tax year that you can discharge today is from 2006 (since 2006 is due in April 2007, and 3 years would be April 2010). It wouldn't owrk for 2007 taxes until April of this year. SInce you mentioned they are before 2006, they meet the first test.

The second test is that you filed the tax returns more than 2 years ago. If you never filed a return and it was assessed, some Courts have determined that you cannot get the discharge because you never filed a return!

The third test is that if it's for an assessment, such as they figure that underpaid due to errors, then that must be at least 240 days prior to filing.

The final test is whether it has been converted to a lien through a Notice of Federal Tax Lien.

Lastly, $7800 is a lot of money to owe the IRS. Did they send you a Notice of Federal Tax Lien or have you been on an installment in EACH year that you didn't pay enough tax? Did you filed all those tax returns on time (April 15th of the year in which they were due)? Did you file them all "late"? When did you file each of year 2003, 2004, 2006?

[mcjcbk]

Looks like I meet all criterea. I filed all on time with extensions. So my 2006 was done by Oct 15th 2007 which barely puts me over the 3 year mark.

Yes I have been on an installment agreement all these years. I never got a Notice of Lien just levies which I contacted them right away. The reason for the notice of levy is bcz they stopped my automatic installment withdrawals bcz of failure to file 2008 taxes...I finally got that in to them but I submitted another installment agreement form which they did not accept the amount I requested to pay.

I was already considering BK by then so with all the back and forth I decided to just file.

[justbroke]

You'll need to amend your schedules. You may or may not get pushback from the IRS and you should be prepared to file an appropriate motion to discharge the taxes. Determination of dischargeability is usually done via complaint (adversary proceeding/AP). However, you would only need the AP if it comes down to a fight and/or the IRS files an AP.

[mcjcbk]

Got letter from my Trustee who is a BK attorney. I called and asked him if it matter whether the IRS should go on Schedule E or F. He said it didn't matter. (??)

[justbroke]

Got letter from my Trustee who is a BK attorney. I called and asked him if it matter whether the IRS should go on Schedule E or F. He said it didn't matter. (??)

Surprising he gave you legal advice. The reason it doesn't matter is because there is no determination of dischargeability, and the true question is whether the taxes are a.) subject to priority, and b.) subject to discharge.