So, how much respect do Pro Se filers get anyway?

[sscott4775]

Hi everybody,

I was just wanting to see if anyone had any thoughts/opinions on how much respect pro se filers get from the bankruptcy court. It's been my experience that if you ask just about anyone in the industry about filing pro se, they'll tell you to either refrain from or proceed with extreme caution in filing your own case, and rightfully so, as the laws are very complex and intricate to those not in the know.

It seems to me (call me biased being a pro se filer myself), but being able to sit down and become educated on so many esoteric details of bankruptcy law and braving such a frightening experience alone seems to reflect strongly on a person's character...I mean, BK with a lawyer is not for the faint of heart, but going solo....even more of a challenge because there's more responsibility on the filer.

So, I was just curious to see what you all thought about this and if you had any
opinions/experiences to share?

[smoothdaddy]

My opinion on filing pro se is is a positive one. I too myself successfully filed ch 7 as a pro se debtor. My case was discharged today. Filing did require a great amount of researching of bk laws, and court procedures. I also saved 1500.00 as well. I did consult with two attorneys for free in reference to filing. I however felt that with great researching and a pretty much simple case,(no asset) that I could do this on my own.

[justbroke]

I did well in both my Chapter 13 filing and confirmation, subsequent conversion to Chapter 7, and discharge. That lasted over a span of almost 2 years. It included various motions, objections, oppositions and even an adversary proceeding (AP) filed by myself. I won the AP under a stipulated settlement agreement in my favor.

I wrote on my blog about some things I learned with everything from dealing with creditor attorneys, working with the Trustee, and how the Court is required to liberally construe papers and pleadings of pro se defendants.

I know that I was respected when the most respected attorney approached me after confirmation, extended his hand, and said nice job.

This is actually atypical, and my success was certainly based on a lot of research, painstaking attention to detail, and showing respect for the court by filing papers, motions, objections, oppositions and complaints in the proper format, using proper captions, following local rules and making sure that my Case Manager knew who I was whenever I called!

In my blog on Converting from Chapter 13 to Chapter 7 I review some of the traits of a successful pro se debtor. The key is that you get respect where you show respect for the law, the court, and the customs of your local District.

[sscott4775]

My opinion on filing pro se is is a positive one. I too myself successfully filed ch 7 as a pro se debtor. My case was discharged today. Filing did require a great amount of researching of bk laws, and court procedures. I also saved 1500.00 as well. I did consult with two attorneys for free in reference to filing. I however felt that with great researching and a pretty much simple case,(no asset) that I could do this on my own.

Hi smoothdaddy,

Congratulations on your discharge! I also took advantage early on, shortly after I decided that BK was the right course of action, of two consultations with local BK attorneys, and truthfully, was not impressed by either. I just recently filed and have a ways to go before it's all said and done, but I feel that with my diligence, hard work, and help from this site, I've been more that prepared for this journey.

[sscott4775]

I did well in both my Chapter 13 filing and confirmation, subsequent conversion to Chapter 7, and discharge. That lasted over a span of almost 2 years. It included various motions, objections, oppositions and even an adversary proceeding (AP) filed by myself. I won the AP under a stipulated settlement agreement in my favor.

I wrote on my blog about some things I learned with everything from dealing with creditor attorneys, working with the Trustee, and how the Court is required to liberally construe papers and pleadings of pro se defendants.

I know that I was respected when the most respected attorney approached me after confirmation, extended his hand, and said nice job.

This is actually atypical, and my success was certainly based on a lot of research, painstaking attention to detail, and showing respect for the court by filing papers, motions, objections, oppositions and complaints in the proper format, using proper captions, following local rules and making sure that my Case Manager knew who I was whenever I called!

In my blog on Converting from Chapter 13 to Chapter 7 I review some of the traits of a successful pro se debtor. The key is that you get respect where you show respect for the law, the court, and the customs of your local District.

Hi justbroke,

You've certainly accomplished some amazing feats throughout your BK journey and I applaud your work! I've read through your blog and was amazed to find out about the court case mandating leniency in construing pro se filer's paperwork. From what I've read of your blog, your journey is truly an inspiration...just hoping I'll never have to go through a tiny fraction of what you've been through! lol

[dumpinmydebt]

I'm not really sure about what you mean as far as getting respect from people. The Trustee was very polite, friendly, and respectful, if that is what you are asking. He was nicer to us than he was to some of the lawyers.

[koruption]

my experience as pro se:
At first, the Clerks kinda rolled their eyes with an "oh great, another pro se case". But, thanks to everyone here, I had all my ducks in a row. It surprised them, and when they realized i was an intelligent filer as opposed to someone just walking in "ya i need a bankruptcy", i was given more respect. Not to mention the Trustee at the 341, he asked several times if I was sure I didn't have someone else prepare the forms, he hadn't seen them so well done before.

[sscott4775]

I'm not really sure about what you mean as far as getting respect from people. The Trustee was very polite, friendly, and respectful, if that is what you are asking. He was nicer to us than he was to some of the lawyers.

Hi dimd,

I guess I was just curious if anyone had any thoughts on how the courts perceive pro se filers...as we all know, there are many caveats warning against not having legal representation and that's rightfully understood given the inherent complexities of the bankruptcy laws, which their case can be made more confusing depending on a debtor's circumstances. But I was just asking if folks thought the courts treated pro se with a sense of dread of just the same as if they had an attorney...I hope that makes sense but I apologize if I made it more confusing! lol

[sscott4775]

my experience as pro se:
At first, the Clerks kinda rolled their eyes with an "oh great, another pro se case". But, thanks to everyone here, I had all my ducks in a row. It surprised them, and when they realized i was an intelligent filer as opposed to someone just walking in "ya i need a bankruptcy", i was given more respect. Not to mention the Trustee at the 341, he asked several times if I was sure I didn't have someone else prepare the forms, he hadn't seen them so well done before.

That's great!! Congrats on your case!!
I hope I can receive the same kind of response from my trustee at the meeting...well, right now I just need to concentrate on surviving without fainting! lol

[free2breathe]

In our case, the trustee showed no concern one way or the other. He looked over the paperwork we brought with us, referred to his laptop a couple of times, asked the standard questions, and had us sign a form stating what our responsibiliites were from there. Prior to our meeting however, I did encounter a rather arrogant attorney who had bemoaned the fact that his case was preceded by a pro se case. He noticed us standing there, asked if we filed pro se, offered to let us listen in on a couple 341s (his way of trying to get ahead of the "troubled children"). I declined and said I was as well prepared as could be. He made some remark about encountering a couple of pissed off attorneys if our 341 lasted more than 30 minutes.

Upon leaving the meeting room, I walked up to him, stated it had been less than 10 minutes, and apologized (in jest) that he couldn't walk into the meeting room a "pissed off attorney". I have to say, it felt good to show him that pro se filers CAN represent themselves successfully.

[sscott4775]

In our case, the trustee showed no concern one way or the other. He looked over the paperwork we brought with us, referred to his laptop a couple of times, asked the standard questions, and had us sign a form stating what our responsibiliites were from there. Prior to our meeting however, I did encounter a rather arrogant attorney who had bemoaned the fact that his case was preceded by a pro se case. He noticed us standing there, asked if we filed pro se, offered to let us listen in on a couple 341s (his way of trying to get ahead of the "troubled children"). I declined and said I was as well prepared as could be. He made some remark about encountering a couple of pissed off attorneys if our 341 lasted more than 30 minutes.

Upon leaving the meeting room, I walked up to him, stated it had been less than 10 minutes, and apologized (in jest) that he couldn't walk into the meeting room a "pissed off attorney". I have to say, it felt good to show him that pro se filers CAN represent themselves successfully.

WOW! That's knocking his ego down a peg or two, isn't it! Way to go!

[dumpinmydebt]

Hi dimd,

I guess I was just curious if anyone had any thoughts on how the courts perceive pro se filers...as we all know, there are many caveats warning against not having legal representation and that's rightfully understood given the inherent complexities of the bankruptcy laws, which their case can be made more confusing depending on a debtor's circumstances. But I was just asking if folks thought the courts treated pro se with a sense of dread of just the same as if they had an attorney...I hope that makes sense but I apologize if I made it more confusing! lol

We had no issues. We are young also (23, 24), and the clerk was really nice. We were the only ones in there filing.

Lawyers paid no attention to us at the 341. The Trustee was incredibly friendly. I gave him everything he requested and I was organized. He complimented me on how great my paperwork was. He also joked around with my husband about working during the holidays. Great experience overall. Left with a smile on my face and I was rather proud of myself that the Trustee complimented me. He wasn't so nice to some of the lawyers who forgot things and did not prepare their clients at all.

The people at the court will appreciate mature people who take this seriously, come organized and prepared, and are polite.

[HHM]

It really depends. If a pro se filer knows what they are doing, the case will go smoothly, if not, it won't. On the trustee side, I do believe there is a preliminary prejudice toward pro se filers because "on average" the case requires more work because most pro se filers wildly screw things up, especially on the chapter 13 side.

Here is the thing, for a truly simple, no non-sense case, pro se is fine. If there is any complexity, how you deal with it is not in any book or seminar. Even attorneys only know the basics just starting out, but until you have filed 50+ cases, and learned how the trustees and courts want things done, what is acceptable in the district on various issues, that is something a pro se filer really can't pick up.

[sscott4775]

It really depends. If a pro se filer knows what they are doing, the case will go smoothly, if not, it won't. On the trustee side, I do believe there is a preliminary prejudice toward pro se filers because "on average" the case requires more work because most pro se filers wildly screw things up, especially on the chapter 13 side.

Here is the thing, for a truly simple, no non-sense case, pro se is fine. If there is any complexity, how you deal with it is not in any book or seminar. Even attorneys only know the basics just starting out, but until you have filed 50+ cases, and learned how the trustees and courts want things done, what is acceptable in the district on various issues, that is something a pro se filer really can't pick up.

Great advise, HHM.

Personally, I would not have taken on a pro se case if I had any indication that my circumstances could lead to any trouble. I've always (and remain) on guard to anything unexpected and maintain that same meticulous, anal attitude that I had when I was filling my paperwork out..it's got me through so far (along with NOLO and the folks on this forum) and I'm sure that will carry me through to the end.

[sscott4775]

We had no issues. We are young also (23, 24), and the clerk was really nice. We were the only ones in there filing.

Lawyers paid no attention to us at the 341. The Trustee was incredibly friendly. I gave him everything he requested and I was organized. He complimented me on how great my paperwork was. He also joked around with my husband about working during the holidays. Great experience overall. Left with a smile on my face and I was rather proud of myself that the Trustee complimented me. He wasn't so nice to some of the lawyers who forgot things and did not prepare their clients at all.

The people at the court will appreciate mature people who take this seriously, come organized and prepared, and are polite.

Great to know!

I've had several sleepless nights thus far worrying myself senseless that I've done something wrong, missed something, somewhere along the line, and it's pushed the limits of my sanity more than once, lol. But you say that they appreciate mature people who take this seriously...I have no problems there...if I've done anything wrong it's be TOO serious and worry about things that do not need to be worried about.